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9 comments

[–] Lolo [OP] 1 points (+1|-0)

Me too. I found it funny because she was harping on something she was doing like 6 months ago.

I believe people can be crypto radfems. Let's say you have an ethical source for eyeliner and a woman profits from its purchase. And you have a high-powered job in a male dominated field. Wearing makeup will help you and not wearing it will hurt you. If you can help "the cause" in numerous other ways by getting promotions and power, it doesn't make sense to die on the makeup hill.

I also don't get pointing fingers at wearing makeup. If it's "not really a choice" how can we condemn the women who comply?

That's just my opinion.

[–] lucretiamott 2 points (+2|-0) Edited

Lisa here. I wasn't condemning any women, I literally never did that. I'm saying as an act, wearing makeup is not a radical feminist act, because it doesn't contribute to the liberation of women from oppression - instead it reinforces the "need" for makeup and also contributes financially to an industry that thrives off of women's degradation and low self esteem. Benefitting from it personally - in your example, wearing it at your job - does not make it a radical feminist act. That just means you wear it and benefit from it personally. That's all.

YES, I used to wear makeup and I don't any longer because I've reached the next stage in my personal evolution as a feminist. I used to be a full blown libfem (confessions here), now I'm not, but because I once was am I not supposed to critique libfems? I find a lot of things "problematic" that I used to be okay with. I believe we are allowed to evolve and change our thinking - I wouldn't be here "harping" (misogynistic term btw) on this stuff if I didn't think women couldn't change their minds (and benefit from doing so).

I don't believe in purity tests and I literally never attacked any woman here or anywhere else or said they should be kicked out of the club or something. I for sure would NOT pass a purity test, but I do believe in standards within the framework of radical feminism - that's what makes it radical feminism. It's watering it down and saying any choice a woman makes is a feminist choice that got us liberal feminism. That's a main thrust of my argument in the video.

I REALLY DO genuinely appreciate you sharing my video but please don't put words in my mouth. Thanks

edit-a word

[–] Lolo [OP] 1 points (+1|-0)

I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, I apologize for being hyperbolic. I also didn't realise "harping" was misogynistic, so thank you for pointing that out.

I never meant to imply that wearing makeup could ever be a Radical feminist act. I'm saying if women understand the context, they could still be Radical feminists while employing makeup to avoid disenfranchisement.

I haven't worn it in years, except for job interviews. We all know most people consider makeup for women part of being "well groomed". So in that context, I use makeup to get a job (then don't wear it for work) and have money to fight the patriarchy another day. I don't consider this a radfem act, just "not dying on the makeup hill".

The last lines of your makeup post do say "...if this truth of Radical feminism makes you uncomfortable, I invite you to explore one of those [be a libfem]" so this isn't "kicking them out", but it is gesturing to the door.

I think this is unduly harsh; that women should be uncomfortable with their own faces has been drilled into them since birth. It should be expected that doing the exact opposite will include doubt, take time and be uncomfortable.

I honestly think you could consider it a win that everyone went nuts on your makeup post. You are pointing out blind spots that women have and giving everyone stuff to think about.

I noticed on your video "radfems in eyeliner" you said many women on ovarit "haven't cracked Sheila jefferies or dworkin". I think this could be considered a "purity test" that you're implying they failed. I just want to say there are women/girls on here who want to be radfems, and haven't read all the texts yet. It can be intimidating. I really wish we had a book club of some sort.

Anyways, glad to see you on ovarit!

[–] lucretiamott 1 points (+1|-0)

Hey thanks for the reply! I agree pretty much 100% with everything you said here.

I'm saying if women understand the context, they could still be Radical feminists while employing makeup to avoid disenfranchisement.

I actually agree with this! In the whole makeup debacle, I don't think anyone actually asked me how I felt, they just assumed I was saying women should lose their radfem cards for wearing makeup - but it was not. AT ALL. My point was that we should see makeup for what it is, and to challenge ourselves to minimize our support for the industry where we are able. It IS a challenge sometimes but I think it's worthy to do, as radical feminists. But no purity tests!

I haven't worn it in years, except for job interviews. We all know most people consider makeup for women part of being "well groomed". So in that context, I use makeup to get a job (then don't wear it for work) and have money to fight the patriarchy another day. I don't consider this a radfem act, just "not dying on the makeup hill".

I personally don't have any issue with this. But for me, makeup is my hill. Like I said in the video, how we as women interact with beauty/beauty capitalism (I guess you could call it) is my personal biggest area of interest under the radical feminist umbrella. Someone had a thread the other day about what everyone's pet issues were. Maybe it seems shallow compared to some peoples' issues - fgm, trafficking, child marriage etc etc, but I figure someone has to be looking at it, and it's what peaks my interest the most. I do see it as tying into objectification/self-objectification that underlies everything we care about as feminists.

The last lines of your makeup post do say "...if this truth of Radical feminism makes you uncomfortable, I invite you to explore one of those [be a libfem]" so this isn't "kicking them out", but it is gesturing to the door.

You're right, that was a little on the picante side.

I honestly think you could consider it a win that everyone went nuts on your makeup post. You are pointing out blind spots that women have and giving everyone stuff to think about.

You're right & thanks, that's a really nice way to put that.

Finally, I do strongly recommend Sheila Jeffreys she's so good and very readable. That book, you can just go to the chapters that interest you and start reading, they read like separate essays. Not saying that in a condescending way but some people (myself included) have limited time and/or attention span and are intimidated by digging into this stuff. So just a suggestion for an approachable way to get into it!

Anyhow thanks again for sharing the vid and for all your thoughts and measured feedback, I really appreciate it so much! It's a lot different to get constructive criticism (I need that and certainly welcome it, always), than to get jumped on.