19

82 comments

Wait so I have to pretend religious misogyny isn't misogyny because the religion is compromised of "brown" people? Hmmm. No thanks.

Islam is an anti-female sham. It will NEVER be for women. It, like all religion, is rotten to its core. And unlike the white religions you can't even criticize it because you'll get called racist. Lmao. Well getting called "racist" and "Islamphobic" doesn't work on me, so I'll go out and say it with my chest.

But go ahead and defend Islam for some reason, even as it continues to advocate for the abuse and subjugation of girls and women. Ew. 😂

It's not even fucking true. There's a ton of very misogynistic white muslims in Germany, one is a fat ginger and very famous.

[–] Fury 21 points

Are we supposed to pretend that Islam is a pro-woman theology? That's no better than anyone pretending men are women.

I don't think there is any organised religion in the world that is pro-women. Some women might find refuge in the texts & philosophies for whatever reason but the power structures are controlled by men solely for the benefit of men.

So Rotherham. Posie was upset that the police didn’t investigate properly because they were afraid of being accused of racism and girls, some as young as 11 suffered horrendously at the hands of grooming gangs as a result. Posie was coming from a place of outrage over what happened to those girls. Women and girls are always her priority, whatever their background, beliefs or skin tone.

The official report says that this is untrue. According to the report, the majority of offenders were not south Asian (though some were), nor the victims only white girls. They also claim that failures to properly investigate were not do to fear of being seen as racist, but just bad policing all around on this issue. I admit I don't have comprehensive knowledge about this issue. But PP got her info from some far right guy, so there's that. https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2020/dec/analysis-new-home-office-report-admits-grooming-gangs-are-not-muslim-problem?fbclid=IwAR0xuOXmBkImAORdZCj3dieLlk2ycsbs8SxKRYLwJasTBhkWtBe6JJp0bOk

The claims that “grooming gangs” were not properly investigated due to “political correctness” and a fear of being accused of racism are heavily undermined by decades of research highlighting the consistent over-policing of minority communities. What’s more, the whole history of the UK’s responses to child sexual exploitation and abuse is littered with failings – as shown by the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse, Operation Yewtree and numerous other investigations and inquiries. There were also regrettable consequences for child protection, since victims and offenders who don’t fit the stereotype can be overlooked.

[–] ProxyMusic 3 points Edited

The link you gave is to a UCL page that merely carries text from a Guardian article. There is no link to any more info, or to the paper referenced. The Guardian has been predictably brogressive on this and related topics, claiming any criticism of Muslim men for committing mass sex assaults on women is racist and Islamophobic. Look at how the Guardian dealt with Cologne NYE 2015/16.

Yeah, the link is not ideal. I don't know enough, honestly, to comment further on this aspect.

[–] ovaryacting Dilatemadaboutit -17 points

Calling the sight of girls in headscarves 'disgusting' is bigotry. Which is exactly what Keen did/said.

[–] HurstPank 27 points Edited

Her tweet calls 13 out of 15 girls in a class being forced to cover their hair by a patriarchal religion as being disgusting. It is very clear she’s not talking about the girls themselves being disgusting.

As a radical feminist that sight also disgusts me because it’s such a visible display of men controlling women through a religion that treats women worse than most other religions in the modern day. I know modern Muslims. They are good people, but the men still treat the women like incubators and maids even if they’re not forced to wear hijab. I will never be ok with that. Radical feminists must call out Islam’s misogyny, our Muslim sisters deserve it.

The rest of her tweets are more questionable, and her motive behind the hijab one may be racism, I have no idea, but she’s not wrong.

[–] ovaryacting Dilatemadaboutit -10 points

That's not what Keen said, though is it? She just said the sight was 'disgusting'. There was no nuance or explanation. Just that.

It's enough for myself, other women of colour, and Woman's Place to take notice. It is enough to add fuel to the fire that radical feminism is a racist movement.

She might not be wrong, but optics are important whether we like it or not.

Personally, I'm done with Keen now. She has been cosying up to various unsavoury figures for a while now, and I don't think the trending on Twitter makes up for the bedfellows. I will be focussing my efforts on Woman's Place and Sex Matters.

Women of colour often get downvoted here for saying some harsh truths, which also doesn't help anyone.

On my way to work I see girls going to elementary school in hijabs. These girls are about 8 or 9, maybe even younger.

That is disgusting. They are children!

and where is the male version why do only women get their clothing dictated about? I wouldnt mind it if you saw all the men wearing those long robes and things but you dont, they seem to be able to dress however they like.

[–] ovaryacting Dilatemadaboutit -16 points

What about adult women wearing the headscarf? Do you find that disgusting too? Do you think brown women and girls have no agency at all?

no, it's not. I find it disgusting too. The girls don't disgust me, the men who formed this woman-hating culture do.

[–] ovaryacting Dilatemadaboutit -11 points

I'm genuinely curious. Do you find the sight of scantily clad women equally disgusting? Assuming women only dress a certain way because of patriarchy.

It's not the girls who are disgusting, it's their fathers and brothers forcing them into a sexist hateful piece of clothing

It is disgusting to people who are against religion oppressing women.

[–] ovaryacting Dilatemadaboutit 12 points

At the risk of pissing off everyone, here goes:

There is a racism problem within feminist communities on all sides of the political spectrum. This is because there is a racism problem in the UK, in all aspects of our society.

I have experienced racism from university professors with PhDs and publications, I have faced racism from younger women, older women, working-class women, upper-class women, left-wing women, right-wing women, religious women, atheist women, and every single woman in between. And let's not forget the men.

In my experience, there is not a single political movement in the UK that does not have a racism problem because, again, we have a racism problem in the UK in general. Even the anti-racism movements in the UK have inter-cultural and intra-cultural issues to face.

Having said that, I am glad that Woman's Place have clarified their position. We should not be allowing any racism for the sake of keeping a semblance of community. You stand with all GC women, or you don't at all.

Is Kellie-Jay Keen a racist person? Honestly, I doubt it. There are plenty of prominent WOC involved in her events. Do I think she has some questionable views about certain sections of our population? Yes. As a woman of South Asian origin, very much yes.

I think we are all adults and sensible enough to be able to say 'I can agree with this person on most things and still find some of the things they have said distasteful. I think they need to be held accountable for this, have it be explained why this is a problem, and then we can all move on having learned from this experience'.

There is an opportunity for everyone on all sides to handle this with grace, and I am sure we are capable of this.

This is a very important statement on the prevalence of racism and how to approach it within our own movement in a thoughtful, positive way. This should be helpful in order to not tear movements apart, as so often has happened.

[–] female 1 points Edited

I mean, she once did an interview with prominent YouTube white nationalist JF Gariepy so I'm less willing to give her the benefit of the doubt about her racism. She claims that she didn't see anything immediately objectionable when she looked him up, but a cursory glance at him on Google, Wikipedia, or on his YouTube channel (which has since been deleted but can still be viewed on archive sites) shows immediate and noticable racism/anti-Semitism. Here's an article talking about it (source is PinkNews, but they seem to be the only source other than Kiwi Farms or various TRA subreddits that has covered it fully.)

It's one thing to collaborate with a right leaning or conservative person, but straight up doing a livestream with an outspoken white nationalist should rightfully be considered unacceptable, as it makes women of color feel uncomfortable and unwanted. I say this as a woman of color (Somali) living in the UK myself. Racist feminists need to be held accountable.

Alright well, I've been trying to find this stupid interview forever, and the closest thing I can find is the mums.net thread on it. Annoying.

She claims that she didn't see anything immediately objectionable when she looked him up, but a cursory glance at him on Google, Wikipedia, or on his YouTube channel (which has since been deleted but can still be viewed on archive sites)

I went ahead and used Google's search function to check between the dates of like 2017-2019 for this guy, and while he does show up as a white nationalist, the most visible search is from RationalWiki. RationalWiki describes the phrase "Actual woman" as: "Self-description by TERFs, because they think they get to decide who's an actual woman and who isn't."

So I can't blame her if her eyes glazed over and didn't see that. The guy has some accusations of fraternizing with Epstein, ew, and in 2018 this article ("Alt-Right YouTuber Accused of Luring Autistic Teen in Pregnancy Plot") was posted by the DailyBeast.

Here's an article talking about it (source is PinkNews, but they seem to be the only source other than Kiwi Farms or various TRA subreddits that has covered it fully.)

So right now, your only source is PinkNews, a pro TRA libfem website. The author of this article is Vic Parsons, a NB white freelance "gender and identity reporter." (This individual no longer works for Pinknews, btw, their last article was 2019) The title of this article is "Gender-critical feminist Posie Parker in video with white nationalist YouTuber – and a lot of Mumsnet users are fine with it"

And I still can't find the stupid interview itself! All I have is a bunch of British mothers talking about it second hand!! Argh! But anyway.

You state:

It's one thing to collaborate with a right leaning or conservative person, but straight up doing a livestream with an outspoken white nationalist should rightfully be considered unacceptable

And to cap it off, you use this event to lend more credence to the idea that she's racist. Even though you have no tangible proof that she knew this man was a white nationalist at the time. I thought maybe this crazy man was also from the UK, and like... a UK white nationalist so people would know who he was? But no, he's canadian.

Doing an interview with a white nationalist does not mean that she is racist. Maybe she is, maybe not, I have no idea. This is exactly why I wanted to actually watch the stupid interview. Because right now I can't even tell if she did the interview to spread the GC message or to debate the man on his anti-feminist takes! From the comments on mums.net, it seems to be both.

I've criticized white people a lot on Ovarit. A lot. And the one thing I've criticized most about white liberals is that they're very good at manipulating POC to destroy their white enemies. They don't actually care about racism. You really think Vic Parsons, the white NB gender news freelancer, gives a shit about brown people? No. They care about destroying any white person that goes against their TRA agenda. And making them out to be "racist" so that they're outcast by a growing movement of GC is the easiest way to do it. POC do this work for free. Then we're shocked when these white liberals turn around and throw us under the bus for "transphobia" once we've fulfilled our role. I hate seeing this happen over and over again.

[–] ovaryacting Dilatemadaboutit 0 points

Thank you for this. I'm South Asian in Britain and it makes me extremely uncomfortable, as does the amount of women rushing to her defence. Good on Woman's Place UK for calling it out.