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So I read posts in a group chat of 'lesbian' young women in my field recently, all supposedly "WLW", and one of them posts about a drag queen transvestite show (imagine Alok Vaid Menon) as the highlight of her week and as brave and stunning.

Several of the people in this group identify as they/them as well although they're very clearly female.

Is this a generational thing? What on earth has happened to the young? It's hard to connect with women who don't think they're women... it cuts off community because it makes me question their sanity.

So I read posts in a group chat of 'lesbian' young women in my field recently, all supposedly "WLW", and one of them posts about a drag queen transvestite show (imagine Alok Vaid Menon) as the highlight of her week and as brave and stunning. Several of the people in this group identify as they/them as well although they're very clearly female. Is this a generational thing? What on earth has happened to the young? It's hard to connect with women who don't think they're women... it cuts off community because it makes me question their sanity.

60 comments

I'm older now so giving fewer fucks comes along with the territory, but my take is that we shouldn't underestimate the power of social pressure and what social media is doing to young people. From all directions these girls are being force fed that:

a) Being a woman is degrading. b) You can opt out of that degradation by simply deciding you are not, in fact, a woman. b2) Good luck being treated any differently by men, though, cause it's not going to happen. Men still damn well know what a woman is. c) Being cis and white is boring, and worse than boring, oppressive. d) But hey, you can get social credit by taking up the emotional labor and bearing the shower of abuse by mentally ill men in dresses!

The lesbian community is small and all but invaded and shattered by aforesaid mentally ill men in dresses. There are not a lot of older lesbians telling younger lesbians that it's really okay to not be attracted to male bodies, or supportive of the various destructive co-morbidities that come along with transgenderism. Lesbian unity is not only discouraged but mocked and actively attacked, like most things feminine.

I also think these young women really have no idea what life was like in the beforetime; when there were no educational or professional opportunities for women, where being trapped in an abusive, miserable life was commonplace with no hope of escape. When my grandmother got a job it was a big deal. My aunt's dream was to be an astronaut but she was simply told by her school she was not allowed to take the classes she needed to even attempt that path. These are things the younger generation has no concept of, yet it was not at all that long ago.

It all comes back to the complete censorship of women's history in a schools IMHO. Women are constantly reinventing the wheel of feminism, over and over again, because everything we say is systematically silenced. Women were talking about these issues in ancient Greece. Probably before that. I believe Nefertiti probably had a few things to say about feminism. But no one knows about any of that, let alone anything that happened from then all the way up until sex traitor Judith Butler started spouting off her nonsense in the 1990s.

You make women's history a priority like the civil rights movement is or the Holocaust is in public schools, then we might get somewhere.

I remember in history class, the suffragettes were but a simple footnote. Just “and then womens suffrage happened, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, women got the vote, yay. Moving on…”

I only learned just how much abuse the suffragettes suffered well into adulthood. We never learned about women like Mary Wollstonecraft.

I learned about Wollstonecraft in school (AP History) as Mary Shelley's feminist mother. That was it, IIRC. Maybe also the name of her book, possibly. And yeah, the right to vote was something that happened after women asked nicely for about 40-50 years, apparently

I fear it's going to get much worse now that the term 'woman' has become so politically charged thanks to these idiots.

A lot of schools today wouldn't even want to touch on women's history (not that they ever did before) because they now see that as opening a big can of worms since even mentioning the word women or implying that we are our own seperate sex class is seen as offensive and exclusive...if they did do it, it would likely be reframed under some nonsense like, " the people who used to identify as women history" or some other woke moronic bullshit.

[–] notyourfetish 6 points Edited

The civil rights movement in America was never a priority in any school I ever attended -- aside from the all-black catholic school, and even then, they only focused on teaching us about Malcolm X (and it was one white teacher who was appalled that no one was teaching us about black history).

Really? We had an entire month set aside for focusing specifically on that every February, and I am from rural Appalachia. That wasn't the only time we discussed the civil right movement though, but it was the main time. It started in elementary school even. I think I had maybe five black kids total in my classes until college, and I think only one Jewish kid, but we learned about it and the Holocaust really young and in multiple settings. A lot of material covered in English classes in particular, not just social studies/history. And this was in both school districts I attended. I was in school from the early 90s to early aughts. Maybe you went earlier?

Idk how young we’re talking here - I’ve just turned 26 and know a few woke/TRA people my age...in fact, all my friends (ages 23-26) are libfems and it does my head in.

I have my suspicions about why they fell for the whole NB idiocy and TWAW and I’ve never brought it for a second ...

  1. They all have social media. I do not and never have (besides Ovarit) I really think social media has warped the minds of (particularly) the young. It represents a break from reality. They have to think about how acquaintances and strangers view them in their social media, they have to be “good” and “progressive” and parrot the most popular line at any given moment if they want approval. It’s all about your “brand” apparently and to be an actual feminist is unfashionable.

  2. They all went to university. I did not. University tends to be very “woke” with many pretentious and inexperienced/idealistic young people. Academia is captured by gender shite and so what can be expected?

  3. I have experience with severe psychiatric illness. I have anorexia, an emotional disorder and have experienced psychotic breaks and extreme paranoia - in hospital stays I have been around many people like myself and worse. The whole narrative never sat right with me - affirming delusions is not kind. Mental illness is a disconnect with reality...what could be more detached from reality than a man pretending he is a woman? They have obviously not had the same life experiences and have not been around severe mental illness.

This is just my reasoning on why many young people fall into buying this nonsense. Could be totally wrong 🤷🏻‍♀️

[–] Nediljka_Orwell PITA crone 27 points Edited

I'm almost 40 years older than you (but never a libfem, LOL) and I agree too.

Life before the Internoodle was very, very different. I'm glad I'm old and live in my own little world now, mostly with other people who share the same history. We don't know what to make of what's going on out there, with the younger generations coming into political and social dominance with all their crazy utopian demands created by their digital upbringings. Social media and other online interactions are not real life experiences. They don't teach tact, patience, honesty, tolerance, dispassionate critical thinking, etc. Or how to handle undesirable consequences. Or how to learn from them. Just troll, flame, ghost, or block and move on!

Mental illness is not an identity, it's something that really must be treated. For the good of the individual and for society at large. But sadly, mental health has largely become all about mechanics, all about drugs and now surgery, and not about healing the human spirit. Or about facing and reconciling limits and conflicts. Being disapproving and alarmed at the chaos "individual rights" is imposing on society makes you a Nazi now too.

i'm a few years older than you (recovering libfem) and agree with your points.

[–] Lipsy #bornnotworn 6 points

How did you find ovarit without being on any other social media first?

I barely use social media but I was considering signing up for reddit to join the old GC sub. But then they banned it before I could. Ironically, I found out about ovarit when tras were complaining about it and warning people to stay away, an op-ed type article I think was what led me to the site.

I do not have social media, but here I am, answering another woman's question. Just before the GC ban on preddit, I was banned from saying the heresy that lesbians do not want men, even if the men think they are lesbian women in their souls. I signed up on saidit, which was not for me, but a sister there sent me an ovarit code, bless her.

As a young woman (mid-20s), albeit a heterosexual one, I definitely feel your frustration. I can count on one hand the friends I can discuss radical feminism with (though this number seems to be growing).

There's a lot to be said for societal influences and patriarchal grooming here. Many young women strive to be progressive and kind and liked, even to the detriment of critical thinking.

They also see that women are dehumanized and degraded, and jump at the chance to be free of this damning realization.

The push back against feminism has also been very successful. Older women are insulted and ignored, rather than uplifted and listened to. Women are taught that they are only valuable when they are young and attractive, so those pesky older women are simply jealous and have nothing of value to contribute. It's insidious but sadly, it has worked.

Thank you for sharing your view as a younger woman! I find it bizarre that older women are insulted and ignored... I have to say that the older I get, the more confident and wiser I feel..and older women are prized in the lesbian community (for simply having survived longer!) .

I feel that the pressure to 'be kind' comes from men - a friend I knew raised questions about trans-identified men to another man and was told essentially to 'be kind' as 'they suffer, are poor, and have to work as sex workers'

[–] BlackCirce 🔮🐖🐖🐖 26 points Edited

It sucks but a lot of women like and defend drag. It’s not new either, I’ve had older women drag (haha) me for criticizing drag. Some lesbians believe drag is just “part of gay culture,” very similar to how other women defend misogynistic practices from ethnic cultures. Some women think it’s entertaining and seem ignorant that it’s women being mocked and objectified. For them it’s just a fun entertaining activity they do on the weekends like going to a club. Other women have a vaguely gnawing awareness of the misogyny of it but they want to seem fun and cool and not boring like their mothers/terves and go along with it. Being male-identified is the norm for both men and women. Many women young and old feel the need to constantly defend men, cling to men and destroy their sense of worth in the process. A woman who looks at drag and recognizes it as insulting (black) women and actually resists it is rare.

I don't get it either. I've seen a lot of drag shows from back in my clubbing days and I found them to be extremely boring. Even the really elaborate ones. I would find an actual woman performing the same routine much more interesting and entertaining.

Men have to work so hard for the qualities that women naturally possess..and deep down they know this.

To me drag shows are like watching really bad knock off cover band or something.

I find someone lipsyncing to someone elses music to be incredibly boring, too. I used to go to a dance club that typically had at least one band or performer go on stage at some point during the night and some of these were drag shows. I feel like if you are going to do that do something original with the performance, not just dance around onstage. But I think for most drag performers they're not there to entertain us, we are there to validate THEM.

[–] GenderHeretic 6 points Edited

But I think for most drag performers they're not there to entertain us, we are there to validate THEM.

Local stand up comedians (all male, btw) are exactly the same. I went and realised from their demands for fake laughter and offense when they don't get it that they don't see themselves as here to entertain us, they see us as here to emotionally support them. I can tell drag queens would be exactly the same, ugh.

Exactly!! May as well watch someone sing into a hairbrush while posing in the mirror pretending to be a famous singer! Booooring. And it's totally just 'look at me!' exposure and validation. Imagine if actual women did crap like that..they would get booed.

[–] nothefunkind 17 points Edited

Yeah I used to be a huge fan of drag, and was really close to someone who does drag for a living. I'll never forget my first reaction to watching Drag Race, I said something along the lines of "what in the actual fuck" but immediately backtracked having realized that was not the right stance to take amongst the gay men i was watching it with, and for years (like the trans issue) i assumed there was something wrong with me for not being accepting enough. I enjoyed drag for the color, costumes, creativity, the drama, etc. There are some immensely talented artists represented in the drag scene and credit should be given where it is due. **However, ** it wasn't until i adopted a porn-critical lens (pre-peaking) that I started to notice how uneasy I felt watching Drag Race. The blatantly sexist language, the pornographic performances, how the judges are constantly talking about tits and asses and referring to hypersexual behavior. I used to believe this was just gay men making fun of themselves - it is, to a certain extent. But why do they need to mimic women in order to do so?? Couldn't unsee it once I noticed, and then realized the uncanny similarities to blackface - which was also enjoyed immense popularity in its hay day. Just blatant mockery and stereotypes.

What I wonder is: were there ever any black people like 90 or so years ago loving and defending "black face" entertainers like Al Jolson or something? I mean, there's no question the black community has always had more solidarity with each other and class consciousness than females have ever been permitted to have, because there are men in the black community, but even with that were there ever a few that were like "no, no, this is flattering!" or something?

[–] BlackCirce 🔮🐖🐖🐖 13 points

Absolutely black people loved Al Jolson

[–] PaulaAlquist 5 points Edited

My grandmother, for one, she liked to sing some of his songs, they made her laugh. I had no idea Jolson was white until I was in high school, and that was an embarrassing conversation.

I thought his name was Al Joe's Son, as in Al Joe, Junior. Those were different times, pre-internet, and I feel 98 years old posting this.

Know a historian who focuses on this a bit, don't believe this applies to the fullblown "black face" but according to him, minstrel shows originally used to be a tongue in cheek way that black performers used to parody white people, in a coded way...and then white people took it over.

[–] Dee 2 points

I'd be interested in learning more about the history of drag. Anyone got any suggestions?

[–] OwnLyingEyes 18 points Edited

Think they were raised in a world that's more saturated in more extreme porn than it's ever been, where they're assured that women have achieved equality and are surrounded by people who want to knock them down a peg for being uppity women if they expect to and insist on receiving equal treatment/services. Where they're assured consent matters while their rights to exercise it are taken away and justice for sexual harassment, assault, and rape remains about as out of reach as it's always been. Being expected to call themselves 'feminists' in a version of feminism that always seems to put women last. Having sex work pushed at them as the most empowering thing a woman can do, unquestionably (otherwise what are you, a SWERF?) while the reality is it remains as demeaning, dehumanizing, disempowering, and dangerous as it's always been. And they're more isolated than they've ever been, with more and more human interaction filtered through a screen, where having any semblance of a 'community' to be a part of requires dedicating large amounts of your life to 'creating content' on social media, 'liking' the acceptable things, 'sharing' the things you're expected to, posting the takes on issues that you're supposed to have, where their conversations can be screenshotted and used to ruin their lives if they transgress in any of a thousand large or tiny ways (and the rules are constantly changing, so there's no real way to future-proof them). All the while more and more being pressured to turn their identity into a brand, identity as product being pushed by many of the very same people whose 'brand' includes claiming to be anticapitalistic.

I am so grateful to have grown up in the early stages of the internet, when it wasn't something we carried with us everywhere we went. Can't imagine making it through the tween and teen years like this and coming out intact on the other side.

That makes a lot of sense! I don't know how they can possibly believe 'sex work is work' when it's obvious it's degrading, disempowering, and brutal. I just can't believe they can look at a hairy dude and think 'that's a woman' unless they had to in order to be accepted. (I mean, Demi Lovato saying she didn't know which loo she had to use to because she felt like neither a man nor a woman is just ridiculous.) Their cultural environment is just warped.

Think it's that almost everything they see is through a filter (including literal filters on photos and videos now). Think we as a culture need to collectively touch a lot more grass than we currently are.

The legitimation of sex work puts it on the road to being taxable work, which means it'll have to done illegally to avoid paying taxes.

I don’t think we can discount social contagion and how social media appears to be a particularly effective vehicle for spreading it across far greater numbers of people than otherwise the case.

SM also tends to expose you to more and more extreme content, so people get radicalised into more extreme opinions with fewer opposing views. Modding policies on Preddit and Twitter which punish heresy make this worse.

Take You Tube. I watch a MrMenno video (a British GC gay man - worth a look) and the next thing my suggestions are full of extreme manosphere and right wing content. FGS.

People take lack of agreement more seriously and personally. If you don’t immediately see my point of view and agree with it, you are hurting my feelings and harming my mental health. So I will block and only interact with other people who agree with me (echo chamber).

And we can’t forget that girls and women are particularly socially conditioned to be acceptable to others and fit in with them. Being different and a lone wolf is a thing to be dreaded when you’re a teenager. Girls must be social creatures or they are nothing, we are told (remember all the women living alone who were falsely accused of being witches - because female independence frightens people). It is especially important that boys and men give you their stamp of approval. Very young women have yet to work out this is an empty threat - they don’t have to work on being desired by men and that they can set whatever standards and expectations they want without fear that they’ll be left to die lonely spinsters.

I was born right at the turn of the century and my take is that we've grown up with heavy, heavy anti-bullying narratives and the same old female socialisation that teaches us to always be kind to anyone no matter what. So something as normal and beneficial as criticism or conversation is a no-no, because we've grown up being taught that we should A) be nice and B) if someone FEELS offended or hurt or as if you're an awful person what you actually did or said means nothing. That means that someone who wants to dominate (read: men) can claim to be hurt or offended by any and everything just to shut women up, and we've inadvertently been taught to go along with it. Add to that the fact that people, not only in real life but on the internet, bully women relentlessly for anything, it is terrifying to stick out or share your opinion in any capacity, because you open yourself up to criticism, and of course, "be nice" doesn't apply to women having an opinion.

Gener\sexuality and mental illness is also the new goth\emo\prep - meaning, kids who struggle in adolescence to adapt into young adults cling onto these labels in order to apply an identity for themselves (without having to do the hard work of carving one out) and so a lot of young girls will claim to be lesbians or bisexual, for example, not because they are, but because they want to feel included in an identity. Obviously you should steer clear of telling young people that their sexuality isn't really their sexuality, and so it becomes very difficult to navigate when there are certain social points to be gleaned from claiming ownership of such terms. These are also the sort of kids who will usually subscribe to gender ideology, hence why they might be keen on identifying as various "they\them" pronouns.

Young women (my peers) all seem to have a lot to say about the current state of women's rights, gender\sex etc. but they're too scared to say it because of the way we've been brought up. I, myself, have followed the gender debate closely for a long time, but have only recently started commenting here, for example, and only bring it up to my closest friends. I don't want to risk "cancellation" and, though I hate to say it, I still worry about hurting people's feelings. That's what I've been taught to worry about.

[–] GenderHeretic 3 points Edited

we've grown up with heavy, heavy anti-bullying narratives

Holy crap, this is something that had never occurred to me. As someone who was very badly bullied in school, I hated anti-bullying training with a passion and still do. It was clear that while well-intended, it failed to address the issue on a basic level and ultimately did more harm than good by reinforcing the social hierarchy: The popular kids just learned a new way to get praise and attention from the oblivious adults who already favoured them and who would then declare the training a success. The actual bullying was even more ignored since it was apparently dealt with.

I can't believe I didn't connect the dots. What would happen to all those school bullies, whose only lesson from anti-bullying training was that it can be utilised to become savvier and more manipulative bullies, when they all grew up?

Gener\sexuality and mental illness is also the new goth\emo\prep -

Haha. I remember being annoyed and sometimes offended when people would call me goth or emo. I'd give anything to have that back now. I hate being called "trans" so much.

[–] arete 13 points Edited

Too much screen time and too few hobbies. That and of course the ferocious anti-feminist backlash in the last few decades.

My 18 year old daughter is an empath and I suspect mildly on the autism spectrum (poor executive functioning skills, low maturity, low resilience and easily overwhelmed by the stressors of life, trouble making friends). She has been through a lot of childhood trauma (a divorce, multiple moves, a crazy father who alienated her from me for years). She got really into Drag Race a few years ago, I think she just thought it was all in fun and liked the positivity message she got from it. Then at age 13 a male acquaintance decided he was female and she adopted him like a lost puppy, defends him, gushes about him, etc. She thinks she is supporting someone who needs love and understanding and protecting him from the mean people in the world. I am very openly GC at home and have told her he is just an effeminate gay guy (complete with head tilt) but she gets very defensive and upset when I tell her that. In her mind I am criticizing one of the few friends she has and she thinks I'm cruel.

A few years back a friend described how her daughter (age then around 12) had a crush on a boy who had then decided he was a girl. So the daughter decided that she herself must therefore be bisexual -- and my friend, ordinarily a commonsense sort, believed her!

Two bad cases of Believe the Male Syndrome (it's a sickness), and then base your own identity on it.

I can relate to some of the experiences of your daughter -- I don't think she will always think you're cruel!! I'm hopeful that things are changing. Also, since you mention poor executive functioning skills, it might be worth looking into ADHD, and encouraging your daughter to look into it if it resonates -- I had a late diagnosis at 27 and even though I can't take the medication, learning about it changed my life. The name is quite misleading, it might be better named executive function disorder. Sorry if an annoying comment, but I'd rather mention it to too many people than too few, particularly as so many women are not diagnosed until later in life because it presents differently in girls/women.

I appreciate your input. She does have an IEP for other issues and a diagnosis of "possibly mild ADD" from a child study team evaluation from 7th grade that I am fighting with the school to update. I have thought about getting an outside assessment on my own, in particular for the autism concerns. She describes herself as "neuro-atypical" (which I know is trendy right now but there's really something to it in her case); at a minimum, she's "quirky." It's depressing how impressionable and susceptible to ideologies some people are, in her case I would say she has been in three cults since middle school--she was really into a fringy religious cult for a couple of years, read their books, talked about it all the time like it was some great thing, then got brainwashed by her father for several years, was completely emotionally enmeshed with him and rejecting me, now she's a handmaiden. It hit me a few months ago that this is a pattern with her, it's poor judgment and a lack of critical thinking skills. Scary stuff. She is someone who will need to develop a great deal of self-awareness to not get taken advantage of and wrapped up in the wrong thing in the future.

I just ignore pronouns and queer stuff and I have a lot of younger women and gays who look up to me.

I've always been a gender non-conforming woman in action, but fairly gender conforming in appearance, and I think a lot of people really gravitate to that. I also have a lower register voice and I don't really waffle about things. Very assertive (or I can be when I want to).

I feel like young women especially seem to love it, I wish I could connect with them more but I don't engage with social media much because I find it toxic and distracting.

Technology and the overall cultural shift it brought I think plays a big role. I'm in the millennial generation and remember clearly the shift from hanging out at the mall and parking lots, getting together to chat at other kids houses, to the emergence of online hangouts like AIM and myspace. Everyone stayed home more to get online instead. The big difference now is how regulated the online spaces are compared to the wild west nature it used to have. Online hangouts now are corporate spaces, twitter, instagram, discord and all are banning people for opinions not just for harassing or hostile behavior. So the content of what people are even able to talk about is regulated in a way it never could be at the mall. In my view the youngest in society never really influence the culture as much as they and older people insist, the cultural shifts and new trends are just marketed to them more aggressively than to older generations.

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