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The quote is from Mumsnet. The poster believes she heard it on a Benjamin Boyce interview with Andrew Doyle.

Just wanted to share something I think is bumper sticker gold.

The quote is from Mumsnet. The poster believes she heard it on a Benjamin Boyce interview with Andrew Doyle. Just wanted to share something I think is bumper sticker gold.

32 comments

Not unlike pedophilia— infantilization of adults to seem non-threatening, who tell children that they “act so mature for their age.”

[–] FeminineMistake 74 points Edited

Adults have their feelings hurt if grown men can’t use the women’s changing room, and their hurt feelings are of paramount importance and we must upend the social order so as not to bruise their egos or emotions.

Children might be frightened or confused by a penis in the women’s changing room, but they must be more mature, learn to cope with the unfamiliar, and adapt.

Got it.

I think when they said children being treated like adults, they meant affirmative medical care for children who say they're trans or NB.

Copy, but this has always stuck out to me, as well.

Serious people/families/societies understand that adults can suck up a certain amount of unpleasantness, that children generally shouldn't have to, and if it's a choice between an adult or a child eating the suck, it's no choice at all.

All turned upside down in transland, just like irreversible 'medical' treatment being given based on an adolescent's self-reports.

Like Laurie Penny saying an eight year old girl shouldn’t have looked at the erect penis that a convicted sex offender was deliberately parading in front of her face.

Touched and amused that this little thing I wrote got attention. It was indeed from Andrew Doyle's BB interview, but there he credits it to a Leo Kearse who appeared with him on a TV show.

Discussion here has been on a slightly different tangent to the original context, but it's still very valid. This is a wide theme, isn't it?

Here's the Andrew Doyle interview, linked to relevant segment:

https://youtu.be/2ceG-yb9u-U?t=2523

(I've tried to find the original Leo Kearse bit, but failed - can find what seems to be the right programme, but not this point).

Transcript of segment to follow in a reply...

(LONG context - the bumper sticker is right in the middle, pretty much).

You distilled an insightful comment into a perfect meme so it's no wonder it has garnered attention. 191 up votes on a relatively small site is significant. Being so very pithy it is a perfect meme for a GC sticker - it speaks volumes and catches people's attention but there is no way anyone could claim it is twansphobic. It is such a pithy meme perhaps consider sending it to Posy Parker or to any org that produces and puts up GC stickers.

AD: We just had a comedian cancelled at the Edinburgh Fringe festival - did you hear about this?

BB: No, what happened? What did he say?

AD: It's a comedian called Jerry Sadowitz, who's one of the most controversial comedians in the UK, and everyone knows he's one of the most controversial comedians. You go to his shows to be offended, that's part of the fun.

BB: You know what, I was looking for his set. I could not find his material on YouTube.

AD: You won't. Never. I've seen him absolutely scream at someone in the audience for trying to film him. He's scary. So, Jerry Sadowitz is a Scottish magician-comedian who - his whole show, he can scream for over an hour about all minority groups, and how he hates them all, and he'll use racial epithets, he'll... I remember him doing a 10-minute set about how disgusting gay people are, and all the vile stuff they get up to. And while he's screaming and spitting all this bile, he's doing these incredible magic tricks, these sleight-of-hand card tricks. It's an incredible juxtaposition, and it's really funny.

I've heard him say the most anti-semitic things you will ever hear. He's Jewish, and that should give you a clue as to what he's doing here. It is a vile, vicious persona that is just brutally hilarious. He's an equal-opportunities offender - he hates everyone and everything. And he gets his penis out, and he is vulgar and disgusting and all the rest of it, and it's exhilarating to watch.

And if you go to see that and you're offended then there's just... fuck off, basically! It's so ridiculous. It couldn't have more warnings if you tried, right? He even put out a promo video before this Edinburgh run saying, "I'm going to be rude, I'm going to get my dick out, I'm gonna do my fascist shtick", like all of this stuff. The show was called "Not for Anyone". The show that I saw a number of years ago was called "Jerry Sadowitz: Comedian, Magician, Psychopath". You can't say that he's misleading his audience. And yet!

So he did two nights, both sold out, massive venue. After the first night there were complaints. The Pleasance, which is one of the big venues at the Edinburgh Fringe festival, then shut it down on the second, saying "you can't come back", and they put out a statement saying "Jerry Sadowitz' performance doesn't align with our values."

They said "audience members were made to feel unsafe" - they used the word. They're using all the Woke language that we've taken from you lot in America - they were using all of that stuff. And again they were saying - they use the phrase "these kinds of opinions are not acceptable anymore". They're not opinions, they're jokes! They're not even jokes, they're kind of, as I say, a theatricalised. There's no point in...

I wrote an article about this for Unherd, and I made this point about, you know, if you have a go at Jerry, if you're offended by Jerry Sadowitz and try and get him cancelled, that's like being offended by Macbeth's ruthless ambition. It doesn't make sense; you're being offended at a character!

So anyway, so that happened. And this is an interesting moment, though, because whereas we've had comedians have their shows cancelled before - there was an act called Roy Chubby Brown, very big in the UK, had his show at Sheffield ditched last year. Didn't seem to bother the comedy community, because the comedians don't like him - they think he's an old reactionary. Jerry Sadowitz is respected by all the major comedians. He's really seen as a veteran, and a really sort of important comedic figure - a figure in the industry. There's been a lot of silence from those comedians that I know are very respectful of him. But this might be a turning point, maybe. Potentially.

BB: There's another aspect of this and it kind of mimics or it rhymes with cancel culture. So I think it was earlier this year there was this - or maybe it was last year, time has warped for me - called the Family Sex Show at the Royal Bath. And it was this very sincere desire to teach children how to have sex. And they had all this information about different sexual acts that you could do, and they were really trying to help children to be comfortable with their bodies and let adults show them how to use their bodies and stuff like that. It was very groomy, and they got cancelled because it came to light.

But the same people who would cancel these offensive acts are also promoting things that, are on the surface, and in the depth, actually trying to corrupt youth, right?

AD: I mean we talked about this on Headliners, the show I host sometimes midweek, and there's another comedian called Leo Kearse who's often on the show, and he made the point that, you know, you take the Jerry Sadowitz situation, where because he exposes his penis and because he screams offensive phrases, adults need to be protected from choosing to go and see that show. And yet when it came to the Family Sex Show, we're treating kids like adults. So "why are we treating the adults like kids, and the kids like adults?" was his fundamental point. And that's exactly right.

BB: What do you think about that? Isn't that weird, and odd?

AD: It's insane. It's one of those things that I actually can't get my head around. You might be able to help me but I don't know why... They think that... It's almost like they're suggesting that having boundaries for small children when it comes to adult sexuality is somehow reactionary and conservative and old-fashioned. That doesn't make any sense to me. I don't know where they've got that from. I don't know why... I mean, you hear the odd extremist online talking about how, you know, the LGBTQIA+ community should start bringing in MAPs - "minor attracted persons", paedophiles - and you sort of think, "look, that's just some insane person online, and there's a couple of academics who have said stuff like that, but how has that caught on?" I don't understand. You're going to have to help me with that.

BB: Maybe it's just part and parcel of the contradictions inherent in the ideology - if it is a coherent ideology. But the rise of drag queen story hour - for some reason that is something that they want us to do. And then any sort of movement to protect children is called "don't say gay," or is construed as trying to erase homosexuality from curriculum, right, when it's just saying that we're not going to teach about, you know, how to have anal sex when you're a nine- or eight-year-old.

AD: Right. Well, these kids aren't... they're kids! They're not sexual. You know this is like....

BB: Well they're all obsessing over it now. Fifth graders are now like exchanging their sexualities - "Oh, I think I might be demisexual or asexual" stuff.

AD: They're just mimicking. They're just mimicking, aren't they? That's what kids do. So, yeah, it's really sad. I mean, the drag queen thing I find utterly bizarre. I mean, you know, I like drag shows, I've seen drag, I've got friends who are drag queens, and part of that genre is it's sexually subversive; it pushes things to the edge. I've seen some of the most revolting but and yet exhilarating sexual adult performances from drag queens. You'd be very upset by them, I'm sure, Benjamin.

BB: Literally shaking right now thinking about it.

AD: I can see it! But I would never bring a child to those shows, and nor would the drag queens involved want children in those shows. So what I don't understand... I think it's perfectly possible for a drag queen to read a story to children in an entertaining, flamboyant way. Drag queens are good actors and they would be quite good at that, I imagine. But they would have to anaesthetise their art form to such a degree it would make it completely non-sexual. You could take out all the things that are really fun about the genre and just do this really banal thing for... I don't know why they would want to do that.

The only thing I can think of is that... Because I don't think it's helpful saying that all the drag queens doing drag queen story hour are grooming kids. I don't think that's helpful either. I think they... But I don't understand why they would want to do that. I don't get it. Again, maybe you can help me with that. I just think it's... And I spoke to a drag queen friend of mine recently about this, and he said to me, "yeah, I just think it's weird. It's just not something i'd want to do."

It's not artistically interesting to sanitise your work in that way.

BB: Okay. Well, either that, or you don't sanitise it, and then you're pushing the line, right, you're subversive...

AD: Yeah, and some have, haven't they? That's the problem. You see those video clips of some drag queens performing for kids, and they clearly haven't sanitised, and it's just an adult sex show in front of children. And that's.... I can't... I think that's unforgivable, you know, and I'm not... That doesn't make me a reactionary - he said very defensively.

BB: Yeah, there is a tension though between an adult appreciation of the theatrical and the subversive, but still wanting to keep it contained. And it seems like it's inside-out now. Like we have to contain, we have to protect the adults, and we have to normalise the adult behaviour for children, right.

AD: I'm with you on this 100%. I think, look, let's just accept that we socialise, there's a period of socialisation in childhood in which you do protect children. And, you know, they don't have free speech. They start swearing in class, you say "don't do that," right? That's fine because that's the period of socialisation. Once you're an adult you should be able to do whatever the hell you please, say whatever you want, you know, within the law, do whatever you please.

But this need to infantilise adults! I don't want someone cancelling a comedy show because they fear it might be bad for me. How dare they? I'll make the decision what's good and what's bad for me. I'll make the decision what I see.

And the other thing that occurred to me when I first watched that is:

"Jerry Sadowitz Story Hour"

That's it. Just a concept to throw into the ring...

[–] Tiramisuomi 28 points Edited

If you give half a fuck about your child and meet approximately 33% of their needs (don't remember where I read that), they will turn out okay in all likelihood. That's how low the bar is for generally succeeding at establishing stable-ish attachment. Which is both encouraging, and also really fucking sad that it's apparently too much to ask for many.

Like dogs, children lash out and get anxious if they are not subjected to rules, order, and discipline in favor of constant fawning. They get increasingly desperate to hear that they're out of line, and that the parent expected better. How devastating it is for them to never know their true place in the family, and to never hear what is expected of them. How can they possibly know their worth when any amount of jackassery gets the thumbs up? How can they possibly know who they are and what they value without these lessons?

I'm so sad for the children of these loons who think that what they are doing is love, to say nothing of those approving hormones and surgery.

[–] Sass 13 points

The “treating children like adults” part of trans ideology doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with discipline and rules around the house, but the idea that children are like mini-adults when it comes to “knowing who they are.” They apparently think that children’s concept of their own gender/sex formed in the womb and turned them into little truth machines who inform adults whether they’re a boy, girl, neither, or both. We learn from them.

I suspect that trans advocates imagine that it’s like adolescents knowing they’re gay. You just “know” it. You tell others. Wanting a child who isn’t trans (undergoing therapy to become comfortable with their sexed body) is therefore like wishing your gay teen was straight.

Truth is that children feeling as if they are not really a boy or girl is NOT like adults experiencing sexual arousal. It’s incredibly more complicated and more socially influenced than that. They’re importing a capacity for mature discernment which bypasses culture into infants and toddlers.

I'm gay and didn't exactly figure out my orientation until early adulthood, and that's the case for a lot of people. I know a lot of people who came out twice, first bi then gay, or first lesbian then bi, etc. Orientation is also complicated and very heavily socially influenced, especially for girls/women who are bombarded with messages that they're worthless without male approval, that they don't need to be sexually attracted to their partners or enjoy sex.

The difference is dating someone isn't an irreversible decision. People break up all the time, no big deal. If people were advocating for children to be married without the possibility of divorce at age 11 I would be 100% opposed to it. Children are children, they can't consent to adult decisions like plastic surgery, sterilization, marriage, or sex with adults.

Exactly. Even in the days of rampant HIV there were ways to protect yourself.

Sexual partner choices are not the same as irreversible surgeries.

I agree that it's not akin to being gay, which most people say they always knew even if they didn't have the words (and it was objectively true.) The better analogy is the spectrum of faulty cognitions/disorders that limit reality testing: anorexia, for sure, but also the sort of self-delusion that leads people to think that the world really is better off without them. Or the kind of person who, upon walking into a room sharing a laugh, is immediately convinced they're being mocked even when people were laughing at a meme or something.

The existence of detransitioners, and the social trend in transing, reinforces that the trans phenomenon isn't about an objective reality ("I am aroused only by members of the same/opposite sex.") It's about the interpretation and misinterpretation of reality, as with those disorders.The kind and caring response is to push back on the faulty cognition, not to play along with it.

[–] Sass 11 points

Yes. Unlike someone’s assertion that they have some sort of inner experience of “being a girl/boy,” homosexuality isn’t an extraordinary claim. We understand sexual arousal; we recognize the live possibility that someone can be attracted to members of their own sex; we find confirmation when they then engage in romantic/sexual relations with members of their own sex. So we tend to just take people’s word for it.

But what is “an inner experience of being a girl/boy?” How can that be divorced from sexist stereotypes or role modeling or all sorts of messages & confusions we run across during childhood? How can a small child be expected to be able to extricate some pure understanding from that incoherent, indescribable mess?

The child isn’t only being treated as if they were an adult; they’re also being treated as a kind of noble, enlightened being.

[–] Cailin 20 points Edited

Oh let’s not forget Kirrin Medcalfe of Stonewall who wrote the letter to Alison Bailey’s chambers asking them to cut ties with her. Medcalfe needed a support worker, his mum and his dog present with him in order to be questioned during the tribunal!

Same person said: Cooper questioned Medcalfe about the activities of a number of trans working groups linked to Stonewall. He then read out a selection of threatening tweets that had been sent by trans activists using the word ‘TERF.’ He argued that the term ‘TERF’ is used to silence those expressing gender critical views. Medcalfe rejected this, claiming the word was “usually used by a minority to refer to radical feminists who are in power and who are oppressing transpeople” adding, “Cracker isn't a slur because white people are in power. Transpeople are a minority.”

So the people who that online abuse is thrown at are fine and it’s justified, yet you need your mum, your support worker (whatever that means) and your dog before you can give evidence at a tribunal.

https://4w.pub/stonewall-inquiry-paused-while-head-of-trans-inclusion-seeks-support-from-mom-and-dog/amp/

[–] Tiramisuomi 6 points Edited

I swear I didn't read your comment before I compared parents of TRaNZKiDs to crazy dog owners who don't accept the nature of their relationship, lol. I'm sure doggo just loooooves being dragged to a courtroom.

[–] hmimperialtortie AGP = evil 2 points

My first thought was “Poor dog, having that twerp for an owner” - bet his mother does all the work, too.

Haha brilliantly insightful 👏🏼 I guess they just are that basic and predictable!

Yep, kids are old enough for adult topics and accountability (as per the pedophile guidelines) but adults have no personal responsibility.

This happens everywhere, and it's usually men who benefit the most. Grown men being called kids up to 25 and being excused for their actions. But any kid under 18? Especially if it's a girl...whew boy, they get attacked for the slightest misstep. This is a targeted campaign by adult men against children, and specifically girl children. The rhetoric is so pervasive, it's everywhere.

I remember something to that effect, maybe wider lens? I’m sure it was Helen Joyce too

Adults don’t have autonomy to ‘pray away the gay’ should they want to but children must have autonomy to mutilate their bodies

Yes, he did say that. I listened to it last night. It resonated with me, too.