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This is a theory I’ve had for some time but I think my thoughts may be a bit scattered at the moment and I thought it would be an interesting discussion...

I’ve noticed men are, generally, a lot worse at clocking TIP’s (because a woman’s life can depend on correctly sexing a human? We’ve evolved to be more aware of our surroundings as males are dangerous to us, we notice details they don’t...probably a bunch of reasons 🤷🏻‍♀️) men are more easily fooled by gender stereotypes?

I was talking to a (straight) male friend/acquaintance the other day, the topic of attraction came up and he said that he just didn’t get butch lesbians (I take this to mean any GNC woman tbh 🙄) to which I said I (Bi) often find butch women attractive...we got onto a discussion about gender roles and all that...

He wondered why a woman would want to be “like a man” and I said “a butch woman is nothing like a man, she’s just a woman who doesn’t conform to femininity, which takes time, effort, money and often discomfort”

Men aren’t expected to “perform” masculinity to the same extent I don’t think, not physically anyway. They can just exist without plucking, shaving, tweezing, styling, painting their face etc etc

Do men think females spring from the womb with an innate attraction to sparkly eyeshadow and pretty shoes? 🤔

It got me thinking that for many men, the performance of femininity is almost as important as the female biology (I mean, not to the extent a straight man would go for a TIM over a TIF, but it is integral to attraction for them, I think)

I think this may come down to men not quite perceiving women as humans/full people - if a woman doesn’t appeal physically to the male gaze, she is not a “proper” woman? You see this attitude towards butch/GNC women, elderly/ageing women, women who are overweight, disabled or not conventionally attractive.

We are only “valued” on our attractiveness - we all know this, it’s feminism 101. Is this why TIM’s think performing female stereotypes makes them actual women?

Idk, my thoughts on this are very jumbled so I’d love to know what everyone here thinks?

This is a theory I’ve had for some time but I think my thoughts may be a bit scattered at the moment and I thought it would be an interesting discussion... I’ve noticed men are, generally, a lot worse at clocking TIP’s (because a woman’s life can depend on correctly sexing a human? We’ve evolved to be more aware of our surroundings as males are dangerous to us, we notice details they don’t...probably a bunch of reasons 🤷🏻‍♀️) men are more easily fooled by gender stereotypes? I was talking to a (straight) male friend/acquaintance the other day, the topic of attraction came up and he said that he just didn’t *get* butch lesbians (I take this to mean any GNC woman tbh 🙄) to which I said I (Bi) often find butch women attractive...we got onto a discussion about gender roles and all that... He wondered why a woman would want to be “like a man” and I said “a butch woman is nothing like a man, she’s just a woman who doesn’t conform to femininity, which takes time, effort, money and often discomfort” Men aren’t expected to “perform” masculinity to the same extent I don’t think, not physically anyway. They can just exist without plucking, shaving, tweezing, styling, painting their face etc etc Do men think females spring from the womb with an innate attraction to sparkly eyeshadow and pretty shoes? 🤔 It got me thinking that for many men, the *performance* of femininity is almost as important as the female biology (I mean, not to the extent a straight man would go for a TIM over a TIF, but it is integral to attraction for them, I think) I think this may come down to men not quite perceiving women as humans/full people - if a woman doesn’t appeal physically to the male gaze, she is not a “proper” woman? You see this attitude towards butch/GNC women, elderly/ageing women, women who are overweight, disabled or not conventionally attractive. We are only “valued” on our attractiveness - we all know this, it’s feminism 101. Is this why TIM’s think performing female stereotypes makes them actual women? Idk, my thoughts on this are very jumbled so I’d love to know what everyone here thinks?

154 comments

[–] kelltoid 78 points Edited

I'm taking this a step further and say men are attracted to subjugation more than anything else. Femininity is just an overt expression of that.

I hadn’t thought of this - you’ve given me a lightbulb moment 😅

This makes a lot of sense. By performing femininity we are signalling compliance.

yep. it's why even straight men will rape each other in prison 🤷

Here's my take.

I think men will fuck anything that moves. I think femininity is the social cue that something is "safe" and "right" to fuck.

They’ll fuck anything, moving or not.

Ok I’m sorry if this is too disgusting, but it fits.

My aunt had to have a colostomy bag put in following surgery. (The good news is, not permanently!) I was helping prepare for the surgery, and going over the information packets they’d given so we could make a list of more questions she might have. One of the points was “do not allow sex with the ostomy opening.”

Her: “WTF is wrong with people?” Me: “WTF is wrong with men, you mean. No woman would decide to try having sex with an ostomy opening, but you just know a guy has tried to stick his dick in it, if they include it in the info pamphlet.”

I remember reading a thread about some of the grossest things healthcare workers have to see, and several nurses mentioned having to work with people with ostomies who do exactly that. Absolutely disgusting.

🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮

I hate men

Yup and I can't decide what to think: on one hand,I believe they have less trouble clocking transwomen than they admit, they're just embarrassed to admit they're sexually attracted to a man

Either that or they see boobs and a willing participant and all bets are off

do you think men will fuck anything naturally or as a consequence of a patriarchal society? i mean obviously it’s biological but biological urges can be subjected to societal outlets…

[–] BlackCirce 🔮🐖🐖🐖 35 points

Do men think females spring from the womb with an innate attraction to sparkly eyeshadow and pretty shoes?

Yes. Men have a biologically inverted belief. They believe women are born for artifice that didn’t exist until recently. Every few thousand years you go back, the average woman had LESS access to what men require now to get it up. Baths. Tooth brushing. Shampoo. Shaved crotch and armpits. Jewelry. Perfumes. “Enhancing” makeup and skin products. Pink floofy glittery clothes. High heels. Haircuts and hair dye. Bras and girdles and corsetry. Go far enough back and you find your earliest male progenitor who had to fuck your earliest female ancestor who looked quite a lot like him, except she had breasts and no penis. She in turn had to spend all day doing the difficult labor of existence: looking all day for food and water, running and hiding from predators, and being dirty and cold. After breeding she had to be pregnant in the most dire, deprived circumstances and give birth without any conveniences. And they both succeeded. If they did not, we would not be here to discuss it.

A lot of “gender” is wasting time creating sexual dimorphism that we didn’t evolve, and pretending that without it, mating is difficult or impossible, and then when the pretending has gone far enough, it becomes true. Male humans prefer to mate with a fleshlight attached to an amp while contemplating the extreme sexual dimorphism in hentai than bother with women. So be it.

You’ve managed to perfectly articulate what I was trying to say :) I think the hurdles for “femininity” get higher and more complicated as we “advance”. I think this is to do with consumerism and porn mostly.

I do think straight male attraction is far more influenced by this that female attraction of any variety though? You don’t tend to get same sex attracted women who want a partner who looks like a sex doll or a porn star. Straight women also seem to have far more realistic standards for their male partners.

Are women just more forgiving of imperfections? Is it because women are less superficial? We see other women as human beings with human bodies, not just masturbatory objects. Is it because men consume more porn and let porn consume their lives?

Can't speak for myself because I'm picky as hell, but honestly I've seen far too many women who accept features that the average porn addicted man wouldn't accept.

Dad bod is the first thing I can think of...Only "mom bod" men like is Helen Parr from the Incredibles, which shows just how warped most men are with attraction. Blech, just let them fap to their pornified cartoons and leave women alone.

I was planning to make a similar post. My opinion is that over hundreds of years sexual attraction has morphed to become more extreme and gender focused. Many sexual attributes which are attractive to men today have been so for hundreds of years because they signal fertility, and specifically youth and health. Examples include hip-to-waist ratio and clear skin and shiny hair. High heels and corsets are designed to enhance women's curves and secondary sex characteristics, while makeup often simulates youthfulness and/or sexual availability. As the previous poster mentioned, part of gender is performative exaggerating of secondary sexual characteristics but over time is has evolved to exaggerating gender stereotypes (behavioral) as well.

Older lesbians I know have said similar. They say men have a femininity fetish, part of which is a hair fetish. Cut your hair and men don’t even register you as a woman, a lot of the time. Not right away, anyway. It’s all symbolic, as others have said.

I've been extremely GNC my whole life. I feel like most of us are invisible to men. Men don't see women like me as potential romantic or sexual partners. Most of them will just ignore us. The nice ones will treat us like fellow "bros." The less nice ones view us as something amusing. The worst ones react to us with anger.

I think men's response also depends on how conventionally attractive you are. A smaller, younger woman with a very feminine voice and mannerisms will be seen more as a culturally acceptable woman than a tall, strong woman who can easily pass as a man.

That is absolutely true. When I had a shaved head, men would react as if I was angry with them or looking for a fight when I barely glanced at them. If I merely passed a man in public, he might say, "Whoa" or "Hey now" and put his palms up like he was saying, "I don't want any trouble". If I had to talk to a man for whatever reason, he would have a tone like he was trying to calm me down.

Then as I grew my hair out, there came a day when I went out for a run and realized suddenly it was long enough for a ponytail but I no longer owned any hairbands. So I went running with my hair out, and that afternoon 3 men reacted to me- one passed me going in opposite direction and apologized if he scared me, one came over when I was stretching to ask if I was hurt, and another came over to tell me I wasn't safe on the sidelines of a nearly empty soccer field, that I might get hit with something. The difference was so stark it was ridiculous, and I could feel nothing for them except bottomless contempt.

I think men have a hair fetish because they are lazy and stupid and buzzed head-vs-long hair is literally the easiest thing to notice.

They must also have a shit fetish, too. It's the only reason I can think of why so many of them are obsessed with anal. Men are freaks.

Can't my hair wont behave until it's like 20 cms long. At 10 cms it kinda floats in all directions all around, think Mafalda.

I’m with you, I’ve had very short hair and hair down to my butt over the years. I go by what’s easiest for me to handle with the least amount of fuss. Everyone says short hair is no maintenance, no nonsense but for me, it was more work because it would stick out every which way and I got wicked bed-head. I’d have to style it. Not to mention, more trims required if I didn’t want an awkward mullet. Of course, the hair down to my butt was also a huge hassle (so much to wash, hard to dry, had to make sure it didn’t dunk itself in the toilet 😂).

I have long hair just past the shoulders now and it’s perfect for me, throw it into an easy pony every day and go.

Sheila Jeffries mentioned this I believe. Made me feel gross as hell since I loved my long hair and thought I was on the right track since men make a big show of hating it.

We don't have worth to men unless we're sexually attractive to them. That's why you see so much hatred towards the groups you mentioned. Not only that, but males were found to react with anger to women who don't physically appeal to them, where women reacted with disinterest to unappealing men. I don't know if I read about it here or elsewhere, but it was so depressing it's hard to forget.

Yeah, makes me sad. I was bullied horribly as a kid (I was unfortunate looking: scrawny, bespectacled, buck toothed and painfully shy) i spent a long time in hospital, then not leaving the house...started venturing out when I was 20 and I guess I was more conventionally attractive because suddenly men were nice to me...even boys from school who didn’t recognise me as the little girl they’d bullied.

It was so strange. Of course male attention is not really a good thing. I’ve been followed, groped, threatened, terrified etc...as have, I think, all of us, if not worse.

It’s one of those situations in which women can’t win.

If you’re old, plain, GNC, overweight, visibly disabled etc, you are anywhere from invisible to downright offensive to men, just for existing, and subject to ridicule and cruelty, less opportunities and no respect.

If you’re deemed attractive you can be anything from “a dumb b@tch” to a “stuck up cu@t” to a whore or a slut or a cocktease, ...you are only an object to be scrutinised and picked apart, you are not valued for your wit, wisdom or intellect (which tbf, the women mentioned above are not valued for either 😕)

It’s a lose lose situation :/

It's awful. I was always heavy in childhood and early adulthood, and boys/men always treated me with outright contempt. Then once I lost a significant amount of weight, suddenly I was okay to acknowledge as a person. It's really fucked up.

Does things to you, doesn’t it? I remember feeling completely wrong footed initially.

In the reverse it must be difficult for women who have always been conventionally attractive to age significantly or gain weight and find themselves invisible/contemptible :(

I feel like when unattractive/overweight men complain about this stuff they’re complaining that women don’t want sex with them, not that women ignore them or are impolite to them. IME women are usually kind/polite to most people.

Yes. This is what's at the root of all men's (especially incels and TIMs) generalizations about women. They are only talking about the women they want to fuck. "Everyone's nice to women!" "Any woman can get laid whenever she wants!" "Women are shallow and don't give a nice guy a chance!"

I had the experience of suddenly being visible to men too (after I lost a bunch of weight)--just like you, sometimes it was the exact same men, totally unaware they had been looking straight through me for years. I have to say this experience is part of the reason I remain single to this day. We all want to believe we are loved, at least in part, for our best qualities, but if you are a heterosexual female, that is rarely true.

Omg YES I could've written this myself. I had literally the same experience losing weight and it put me off men permanently

Yes. As a young woman I was conventionally attractive, but I hated sex (for several life history reasons). I remember thinking, fuck, this being good-looking thing is a real pain in the ass. What's in it for me? Nothing!

[–] hufflepuff-poet wytch babe 11 points

males were found to react with anger to women who don't physically appeal to them

Males also react with anger to women who DO physically appeal to them if the woman rejects him or asserts her own independence. Women can't win with males...

Many hate her even if she complied totally. They hate themselves for being attracted to her. It makes them feel powerless.

These kinds of pathologies are why I would never bodyswap if given the opportunity. There are ways to handle male depravity and survive as a woman. There is no escape from the male mind if it is literally inside your own skull.

This exchange reminds me of that asshole who tried to tell those women at the beach to cover up bc they were wearing bikinis

They are so fucking fragile, it's pathetic.

I think the hate is also more specifically directed at women who are clearly not sexually attractED to them. Hence the disdain for lesbians and obsession with converting them.

So true!

So many straight men have a real distain for lesbians (especially Butch/GNC lesbians) as if the very idea of a woman not wanting cock is personally earth shattering to them 😂 bonus points if said woman doesn’t excite their cock...the very idea!

Like when men call feminists “bra burning lesbians” with disgust...not accurate but what is wrong with being a “bra burning lesbian” anyway?

To some extent, but men would get over their dependence on femininity if women stopped performing it. Men have been socially trained to desire feminine stereotypes, but that's cultural, not biological. If all women buzzed their hair, stopped shaving, and opted for masculine clothes, heterosexual men wouldn't lose their desire for sex. They'd adapt pretty quick. A female body is a female body regardless of how it's decorated.

[–] femlez34 17 points Edited

Idk, if we're talking about straight men, I think "femaleness" is more central to their attraction. None of my close friends are overly made up, most rarely wear makeup, and they still get lots of attention from men. I'm sure none of those men are going to drag clubs and trying to hook up with the drag queens.

There is a huge amount of hatred for butch women, I think because it's a woman who "doesn't know her place". In sexist men's minds they think, "wait, this woman didn't wake up an hour early to try and present herself in a way that would please me? How dare she! Women all exist only to serve me and my dick." Even if he isn't attracted to her at all, he wants visual evidence that she's desperate for his approval. This is the power dynamic they want.

On a social level I think gender non-conformity freaks out conservatives because they see this as the beginning of the end of their subjugation of women. They assume butch looking women don't want to spend their lives popping out kids and cleaning up after a man child, and they'll also lure women like you and me away from men.

Men are attracted to vulnerability and to submission. Most of male fetishes can be explained throught that lens. Both extremely thin women and fat women are vulnerable and rely on men, high heels make women difficult to protect herself, the same with thigh and femenine clothing. Long hair is harder to care for and can put you in danger if you are in a dire situation. Let's not go to worse fetishes like amputees, disabilities, etc.

Also most casual day to day relation between young men and women, consist of men insulting women and them placating men. I notice this a lot with handamidens. They are walking constantly on egg shells, placating males, kind of "flirting" with men while men are cruel and aggresive to them. I personally don't understand it.

[–] GCRadFem 18 points

he just didn’t get butch lesbians

I said “a butch woman is nothing like a man”

Thank god for that.

A butch lesbian for me, is a super-positive characteristic, not a negative.

I told him that it was a gross thing to say that a woman was like a man just because he wasn’t personally attracted to her.

I find plenty of GNC women attractive but don’t feel the need to comment on women (or men) I don't find attractive - I think that’s a very male thing to do, to comment negatively on women’s appearance.

I really don't believe there are this many confused men out there who can't distinguish between males and females.

The next time you see a news article about a TIM who's done something criminal (anything) where he's being called a woman, read the comments. Guarantee there will be a TON of men calling him out as a man (and an equal number of virtue-signaling women using his "correct" pronouns).

The men who are "confused," I suspect, aren't all that confused. They're just not as straight as they'd like people to think OR they're just the regular old unobservant male.

There's definitely many men who are attracted to TIMs but are too afraid to admit it openly. My friend who scams men online sees them all the time.

Lol what a queen,I would love for her to do an AMA. I think I might love her

Shockingly enough it's a man. One of my best friends actually.

Women are a type of man, like smurfette, they are the type of man that is sexy and likes to decorate themselves

Of course! We are just inferior, cockless men with a penchant for sparkles and an inherent need to be subservient 🤷🏻‍♀️

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