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I've been watching old Law & Order SVU episodes. There is a "TIM", who murders his/hers boyfriend's brother to prevent being outed", in season 4, episode 23 (called Fallacy).

I think the episode is from 2002.

The TIM is played by a female actress called Kate Moennig.

There is open discussion among the characters about the person being a man, and his/her lawyer makes a comment that "gender is beyond the binary".

I was surprised to see any mention of "the binary" from that time. Was this one of the earliest examples of this seeping into popular culture, or am I wrong about that? When exactly did gender ideology begin gaining traction in the mainstream, and does anyone know where mentions of "the gender binary" originally came from?

I've been watching old Law & Order SVU episodes. There is a "TIM", who murders his/hers boyfriend's brother to prevent being outed", in season 4, episode 23 (called Fallacy). I think the episode is from 2002. The TIM is played by a female actress called Kate Moennig. There is open discussion among the characters about the person being a man, and his/her lawyer makes a comment that "gender is beyond the binary". I was surprised to see any mention of "the binary" from that time. Was this one of the earliest examples of this seeping into popular culture, or am I wrong about that? When exactly did gender ideology begin gaining traction in the mainstream, and does anyone know where mentions of "the gender binary" originally came from?

21 comments

The Crying Game came out in 1992. Boys Don’t Cry came out in 1999. I knew TIMs in real life by then, but BDC, IMO, was hugely influential in teaching women to Just Be Kind. I remember it being associated with Matthew Shepard, who was killed the year before BDC came out.

Didn’t Teena Brandon renounce her trans identity before she died, but TRAs re-transed her after death?

We were introduced to transgenderism as a concept during middle school sex ed in like, 2003? I think a TIM came and spoke to our class? It was weird but it definitely wasn’t presented in a “you might be trans too!!!” way like it is now. I’m still in touch with a lot of people from that time and haven’t heard of anyone from that cohort ever transitioning or even being NB.

I took a human sexuality course as a HS/College credit course a few years later, around 2007, and they went deep into it in that class. Lots of holding up the Fa'afafine to “prove it”.

So it’s been a while for me but I live in Wokeville and went to hippie schools and was introduced to it pretty early for the time.

Oh wow. I did not even know gay people existed until the late 00s. I thought they were fairly new...and I learned about trans people in the 10s at some point.

I know now gay people were not invented in the 90s or 00s, lol. I read the book "Trans" by Helen Joyce recently (highly recommend) and turns out transgenderism is older than I realized...much older. But only prevalant in recent years.

I preordered Trans but haven’t had a chance to read it yet… It’s literally sitting on my bookshelf with the spine facing in so randos won’t see what it is and figure out I’m a TERF and ruin my life. So lame. I’m glad to hear it’s good though. I do wanna get around to reading it.

This started much earlier than I realized. I was under the impression that it dated back to about 2014. I still don't understand what allowed it to become so prevalent and ingrained, or exactly why it is captivating so many young people now.

I think there were rumblings back in the 2000s, but shit didn't really start to hit the fan until 2015. That's when the trans explosion happened.

[–] SecondSkin 8 points Edited

Law and order svu has always been shockingly misogynistic. Always full of ideas that men have a much harder time being victimised than women, disproportionate number of female predators and sociopaths, bull shit lies about how abused become abusers. They present FMS as if it’s fact (and not made up by peadophiles) and present satanic abuse as common 🤔. The never ending passing TiPs are just part of this ahhhh.

(Which is really sad because Munch is the worlds best ever character. If I try to rewatch old episodes for him I end up fast forwarding more than I watch due to the misogyny)

It’s not a lie, many abused males become abusers. The same is not true for women. It sounds like you were abused and are getting your feathers in a ruffle because you don’t abuse people, but my guess is also that you aren’t male.

[–] SecondSkin 1 points Edited

No it’s not true.

The stats about abused children who go onto become abusers are purely male stats. And these sit around 1 in 8 -1 in 10, abuse victims who become abusers. So that’s the minority, not most, like you claim. These studies are also not necessarily valid to a larger population: the ones I remember picking apart when training in social work were ones that were on boys in residential care. Which is a select population not representative of the general population. Most of the time children in care have a huge variety of dysfunction in their background, not just abuse. There’s nothing to suggest that boys abused outside of the family, who have decent parents they can tell and who get them help, are at all likely to follow the same patterns of boys in care who were abused by their own family and who also face other family dysfunction.

There’s also plenty of misinformation about abusers themselves having been abused as children. That people tend to confuse with the idea that abused children go on to become abusers. Some studies (self reported surveys) claim almost all were abused (because peadophiles have no interest in lying…). But other studies suggest it’s lower-around 60% until lie detectors are used to verify (which also aren’t 100% reliable) and it drops much much lower, 20% ish iirc. Some studies say it’s only 4% of abusers who have themselves been abused. Much much lower than general population. But then if peadophiles deny they are hurting a child, they may well view their own abuse as them not being abused.

So no, with regards to csa, most abuse victims, even just most male abuse victims, do not go onto be peadophiles also. There’s zero conclusive evidence that’s a valid claim for the general population of male victims. (And clearly isn’t at all true of female victims).

[–] ProxyMusic 2 points Edited

So no, with regards to csa, most abuse victims, even just most male abuse victims, do not go onto be peadophiles also. There’s zero conclusive evidence that’s a valid claim for the general population of male victims. (And clearly isn’t at all true of female victims).

But I think you are making a mistake in immediately linking CSA to pedophiles, as though only pedophiles commit CSA. The reality is that a great deal of CSA is done by kids and adolescents who aren't pedophiles and don't grow up to be pedophiles or lifelong sex abusers. A lot of CSA that boys experience is scattered, episodic abuse at the hands of boys not much older than them. Lots of boys in their tween and young teen years commit occasional acts of sex abuse on other kids a bit younger than themselves when they are flooded with sex hormones in puberty of adolescence and they get the opportunity. And lots of boys who are abused in this way then turn around and do the same to kids a bit younger than themselves. But these guys do NOT grow up to be pedophiles or lifelong sex abusers. By the time they become adults, they've acquired more impulse control, moral reasoning, self-awareness and they find they have chances to have consensual sex with willing partners in more appropriate ways. So they no longer engage in any CSA.

For every one who was sexually abused as a child or adolescent by a true pedophile who's made a career out of being a child predator, I believe there are many more who were sexually abused one time or on occasion by a slightly older brother, neighbor, school mate, playmate who would eventually outgrew being abusive. In the course of growing up, lots of people who as adults are decent, model citizens nevertheless behaved abusively to other kids in their lives. And some of the abuse these people committed was CSA.

This was especially the case for those who grew up before the era of helicopter parenting and supervised playdates. When left to their own devices with no adults keeping watch or listening in, kids tend to get up to all sorts of bad behavior. I have several friends of both sexes who were sexually abused as children by older brothers, neighbors and schoolmates - in fact, my experience is that this is pretty common for Boomers like me. But generally speaking, boys who once committed all that CSA did not grow up to be adult pedos and predators.

It's fucking hilarious that they needed a woman to play the TiM...cause a TiM would NOT HAVE BEEN SYMPATHETIC to the audience who needs to believe in the delusion that that poor victim is really a woman.

Season 2 Episode 3 of Cold Case featured a TIM character played by a female actress and that was in 2004.

The show Nip/Tuck came out in 2003 and has a TIM character "Sophia" that the surgeon agrees to do all gender affirming surgeries for on the house. The TIM plotline became a very long running thing that ruined the show for me. It showed TIMs getting gender surgeries in a dark back alley with a surgeon with dementia. The message was that TIMs are going to kill themselves without surgery, and its so serious and so real that they will risk sepsis from unsanitary tools. I think it all was slowly was gaining traction through the 90s, see Marilyn Mansons (screw him) mechanical animals cover with him Wearing a women's skin suit. He wasn't a TIM but there was a build up for gender nonconformity, pushing boundaries. Around that time.

Sounds like even more glomming onto other movements, in this case tying it to back alley abortions.

Because an unwanted pregnancy is just exactly like a man’s need to express a fetish.

These guys are so gross.

Nip/Tuck...that show...when it comes to TIMs it is a complete mess. They did have both women and men playing TIMs which was frustrating. Especially the TIM played by a beautiful woman (I won't spoil, but that always pissed me off).

That show in general though was the most misogynistic show I have ever seen to this day.

It showed TIMs getting gender surgeries in a dark back alley with a surgeon with dementia

This is so hilariously random that I actually laughed. Ol Doctor Demento down in the Red Light District, he'll fix you up real good, Sophia! But he can't remember much so he'll charge ya twice! Dooohohohohoho