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Title.

Abusive men love to use them. I'm sure that somewhere in the spiel about how badly abused he was by her, it's that she literally tried to kill him by continuing to do/refuse to do the thing that he told her he wanted her to do/stop doing or else he would kill himself.

I'm fucking sick of abusive male tactics forcing women into silence. I hate that manipulative suicide threats are working to make people believe that words and radical feminism represent actual, literal violence. It always comes down to suicides when someone really locks them down and asks what exactly they mean when trans lives are at stake. It's never about actual murders, committed overwhelmingly by men. It's always about how we can't even talk about this or they will kill themselves.

Title. Abusive men love to use them. I'm sure that somewhere in the spiel about how badly abused *he* was by *her*, it's that she literally tried to kill him by continuing to do/refuse to do the thing that he told her he wanted her to do/stop doing or else he would kill himself. I'm fucking sick of abusive male tactics forcing women into silence. I hate that manipulative suicide threats are working to make people believe that words and radical feminism represent actual, literal violence. It always comes down to suicides when someone really locks them down and asks what exactly they mean when trans lives are at stake. It's never about actual murders, committed overwhelmingly by men. It's always about how we can't even talk about this or they will kill themselves.

68 comments

[–] DonnaFemina 60 points Edited

Right. How is transness the one situation where people consider suicide threats to be a legitimate part of policy debate? I've seen BS like "42% of trans kids who aren't accepted commit suicide," a statistic that of course isn't true, but if it were, the only correct response is, "Oh, so lots of trans kids are mentally ill! They need to be in the psych ward. Meanwhile, let's discuss the trans kids who are NOT suicidal."

Because I mean.... apologies for stealing this idea but I saw on some thread recently (not here, can't remember where) someone asking, "did 42% of the Jews in Nazi concentration camps commit suicide? Did 42% of African slaves in the south?"

Yeah... NO they did NOT. Suicide is not a normal response to oppression, even to extreme oppression.

And what trans kids go through is not even remotely comparable to concentration camps or slavery, so WTF, how is ANYONE not saying "wow, if that many trans kids are threatening suicide, there's clearly something wrong with them" instead of saying "Oh gosh I guess we need to do whatever they want"?

I also saw a fantastic tweet thread, I think in response to that medical student who was spending a day in a gender clinic. And they were saying, the propaganda tries to have it both ways. On the one hand we were told that the number of trans kids is skyrocketing because they have always existed, but were scared to be open about it in the past. So it isn’t a social contagion. On the other hand, not affirming causes children to kill themselves, but clearly the past 500 years are not filled with unaffirmed, in the closet trans kids committing suicide. So … which is it? Most trans people have always lived as their birth sex and done just fine? Or for some strange reason the number of trans people has exploded in the past three years?

On the one hand we were told that the number of trans kids is skyrocketing because they have always existed, but were scared to be open about it in the past. So it isn’t a social contagion. On the other hand, not affirming causes children to kill themselves, but clearly the past 500 years are not filled with unaffirmed, in the closet trans kids committing suicide.

This is proof that the whole thing is bullshit. Child suicide was basically unheard of just a few years ago. Even children in extreme distress usually won't consider it because young kids don't realize it's even an option unless stupid/abusive adults tell them that it is.

If what they say about trans kids in the past is true, than history should be replete with stories of kids killing themselves for seemingly no reason. But child suicide wasn't even an issue until just a few years ago

Because I mean.... apologies for stealing this idea but I saw on some thread recently (not here, can't remember where) someone asking, "did 42% of the Jews in Nazi concentration camps commit suicide? Did 42% of African slaves in the south?"

I once asked a TRA friend how the suicide rate of trans people could possibly be higher than that of slaves and Holocaust victims if being trans isn't a mental illness. He said it just proves that trans people are equally as oppressed as those groups.

Needless to say, we're not friends anymore.

Omfg. Point A, that doesn't even make sense ("trans people killing themselves drastically more than X other group proves that trans people are as oppressed as X other group" WTF THAT MAKES NO SENSE).

And of course, Point B, the absolute fucking GALL of ANYONE who claims that ANY group in Europe or America today, much less their "hashtag #SoBrave" media-darling group, is in any way comparable to Holocaust victims or African-American slaves! Holy shit, if someone said that to my face I would have to leave the room and calm down to stop myself from slapping them.

I hate it also. In my experience it is a painful, humiliating, and terrifying experience to reveal you have suicidal thoughts; results vary from possible support to outright revulsion. It is so complicated. I can't fathom weaponizing that concept to silence or control someone. Honestly it seems like a uniquely evil thing to do. It requires a person to inflate their worth to such a huge degree that the threat of self-harm would be a terrible loss, and it builds an altar of guilt upon which others are meant to sacrifice themselves. "You don't want to be GUILTY of this! YOU MADE ME DO IT!"

Which is so unlike what suicide actually looks like, from my perspective. Those people I've lost to suicide over the years were not screaming about it. They did not say it was anyone's fault; they didn't say much at all. In those cases, maybe I could say, "Why DIDN'T you scream about this? Why didn't you let me know? Why did you try so hard to protect us from guilt?"

When I felt like it would be easier if I was just not alive anymore, I didn't tell my closest people because I wanted to make them suffer. I wanted to release the thought to someone with a better perspective than I had at that time, so I wouldn't have to carry it alone. And it took me months to do so, because I was so sure the burden of telling someone something so horrifying was too much to ask of anyone. It was isolating. It was scary. It damaged relationships.

These people screaming they'll kill themselves, or that others will kill themselves, and it'll be our fault, for calling them men or keeping them away from our spaces...they hold no water for me. There should be another term for weaponizing threats of suicide against others. It's abusive, it's coercive. It muddies the water for people who need help with real feelings of self-harm--probably including other trans-identified people.

I don't know why this tactic has become acceptable on a wide scale. It's awful.

Exactly this.

There is, of course, wide variation. But my therapist friend (PsyD, if that matters - she says it’s a different worldview than MDs) said the ones she worries about are the ones who seem brittle and force a smile and insist they’re fine. When clients disclose suicidal thoughts, or tell her they don’t see a point in living because they’re hurting too much, it’s an emergency - but people who say those things are still reaching out for help, and that means that at least part of the wants help, and they give her a way in. A lot of people who are very high risk of killing themselves actually don’t want help, so go to great lengths not to ask for it nor let people see their pain.

I also know people who were intensely suicidal, and one thing that pulled them back was some variation of “I knew my mother/child/best friend would blame herself forever for not being able to help me and I don’t want to do that to her,” so I’m particularly grossed out by people who almost certainly are not suicidal but want to inflict that level of guilt on people to manipulate them.

[–] SecondSkin 12 points Edited

ASIST training (suicide prevention) says that most of the time people do say something. But that it’s normally a less direct hint or clue, like saying they don’t think they can go on like this, or similar. Like a cry for help. A way of hoping that someone will realise and ask directly if they feel suicidal. (Then there’s a direct plan to go through to address it, which helps a lot to fall back on. Both for genuine cases and for those who threaten suicide, because they get bored easily if they get asked the same routine of questions if they are just trying to manipulate). It used to be assumed that if people really want to kill themselves they don’t tell people, or pretend they don’t want to. But it’s now recognised that this isn’t at all likely given the mental state of most suicidal people.

No thats very right, people who really are suicidal just quietly get on with it, then you have stories in the newspapers of their families saying we had no idea.

often they will act really happy just before they do it as they have made their minds up and feeling relief. I used to know someone with a depressed relative, they had a child and this relative loved baby sitting them and playing with them, then they started acting strangely upbeat, the family was suspicious and didn't let him babysit that time, he wanted to take the kid on a day out. he killed himself on that day out, he left a note at home lamenting how he really wanted to take that child with him so they could both leave this horrible world.

Good lord that is terrifying.

Yep the kid wasn't even school age yet, good job the parents for not trusting why this guy who'd been depressed for years was suddenly so happy.

Yes, and "you made me do it" is just another form of the "you made me hit you" of domestic violence and abuse.

Thank you so much for sharing about the people you have lost. I wish too that they had said something, but that's how it goes :(

This was the beginning of my peaking. My father, who is a cluster B disaster area, consistently used suicide threats to keep my mother and the rest of us in line.

Why would someone oppressed get to flex the tactic of a privileged and powerful abuser?

Once I was finally able to ask myself that question, the peakening began.

"You're suicidal? Okay, that's a medical emergency. I will take you to the ER at once. You'll have all of your personal items taken from you, you'll probably be strip searched and watched while you use the bathroom. Then you'll be locked up for at least five days. Okay, ready to go?"

Those of you who have also been hospitalized for this reason know how it is.

Yep. It is awful and dehumanizing (especially when you're a weak, small, sexually abused 18-year-old-girl and there are men in the ward). Other mentally ill friends have told me "I'd never go to the psych ward/mental hospital" but I had no choice due to my suicide attempts. The only bright sparks were talking to other people and realizing I was not alone and could be understood.

I am confident more people would stop threatening to kill themselves if they actually went. :)

I've never been through this but honestly if I was suicidal this is the reason I would never tell someone. That sounds horrible. Wouldn't that kind of treatment make someone even more suicidal?

Yeah, it is ... kinda horrible when dealing with really suicidal people. Especially with women.

But sounds like the right way to handle abusive men who threaten suicide as part of their abuse.

the constant threat of hospitalization is why I don't ever feel safe discussing nearly anything with my parents

"oh, you want to die because you have little to no freedom in your life? let's make that even worse in the name of 'helping'"

Most parents aren’t psych professionals though.

If they didn’t take a child with a broken leg to a & e they would be negligent. Mh life or death crisis isn’t any different. Parents often won’t know what to do for the best and can’t help that mh emergency services are so poor.

I'd never dream of making someone feel this way if they came to me genuinely. I would tell them that the hospital sucks ass in a gentle way - I've been there myself and simply sitting waiting for intake was enough to convince me I'd shelve the whole plan if I could just go back home and sleep in my own bed. If they really needed to go though, I'd help them get there.

Now, if it came from someone I was very sick of hearing threaten it over and over again, or who tried to do it to manipulate me? That would range from something much like OP said, or something worse.

They treat you like a prisoner. When I was 14 I was horribly depressed and anxious for months and when I finally got in to see a psychiatrist she prescribed me klonopin and I overdosed later that night. Once I was stable in the ER there weren’t any beds avalanche at any of the mental hospitals in my city and they wanted to transfer me 5 hours away to another mental hospital but my mother refused and went to her boss who was a friend and the hospital president and he got me a private room with 24 hour security in the main hospital until a bed at the mental hospital opened up.

When they took me from the ER to the room I had to walk through the hallways of the main hospital handcuffed with my shoulder against the wall at all times, and with a guard in front of me and behind me. It was so humiliating.

When a bed finally opened up at a private mental hospital, they handcuffed me and put me into what looked like an unmarked police car, but with a hard plastic bench as the backseat. There was also a camera no more than a foot away from my face.

Luckily the mental hospital I went to was small and nice, but a few days after I arrived my mom received a letter that gave a court date and if I wasn’t discharged before the date they were going to try to commit me long term so I sucked it up and played happy the whole time. It was the longest week of my life.

A few girls were transferred from the main mental hospital after I got there and they said it was like a prison there. They said that they were both assaulted by other inpatients and one girl’s roommate would throw her used tampons all over the floor of their bedroom. I was so fucking thankful that I didn’t have to go there.

But first they make you wait in a cold room for eight hours, hoping that you'll realize you're not THAT suicidal and go home.

You can be that suicidal and they not in the mood to help you. After the half a day there waiting.

Mens problems are no concern of mine. There’s a national crisis text line, dudes, go use it.

People with Cluster B personality disorders will often use threats of suicide as a manipulation tactic. And if me talking about reality makes you feel suicidal, you need to seek help immediately, because I'm not going to stop calling a man a man just because it hurts his fee fees.

Right? The only people murdering TIMs are men, so why is all their wrath directed at us? This is a male on male violence problem that has nothing to do with us. If there was even a single instance of a woman physically assaulting or killing a TIM you know they'd never stop waving it in our faces as a reason that we aren't allowed to be upset about them attacking us, so I'm gonna assume it's never happened. Every time there is a public clash between women and TIMs, only the TIMs are violent.

Misgendering does not cause people to kill themselves, my wife is called "sir" every single day, so what. If someone truly can't handle the kinds of minor annoyances that come from interacting with strangers, they should be in a residential psych facility. They know they aren't going to kill themselves, you're right it's just a manipulation tactic. What we need to do is stop letting it work on us. They know it doesn't work on other men, you should see what happens to TIMs who use these threats on gay men.

Right? The only people murdering TIMs are men, so why is all their wrath directed at us?

Its because killings of TIMs are extremely rare in western countries. And most of the murders of trans people happen as a result of sex work or other illicit activities like dealing in illegal drugs. And the woke dipshits don't want to address those trans deaths because it will invalidate their dogma about sex work being a normal and wonderful job. So instead they bend over backwards to find ways to blame JK Rowling for some trans kid leaping off a roof in Ohio or whatever

[–] femlez34 5 points Edited

Their response would be that it wasn't "sex work" that caused the man to be killed, it was JKR. There was some kind of butterfly effect making her responsible. All those pimps and johns would have been stand up citizens treating TIMs with the utmost kindness if they hadn't been poisoned by the witch's tweets! Everything a man does is twisted to be some woman's fault instead.

I wish I had the courage to point out to TIMs that men have a 4x higher suicide rate than women. So if "trans women" really were really women, wouldn't being trans lower their risk rather than increase it?

That asshole Laverne Cocks blamed "Black cis women" for the murders of Black transsexual prostitutes. He claims that those TIMs wouldn't be murdered/assaulted if Black women were more open to their boyfriends & husbands humping men behind their backs while the women dutifully sit at home caring for the children.

So, yeah, these selfish TIMs will twist themselves in knots to blame women for male violence

It must be pretty nice to live in a world that cares so much about whether you live or die that complete strangers capitulate when you bleat about being in danger at your own hand.

I’ll admit to a certain level of Schadenfreude every time the following happens: some person (not always but often trans-identifying) is in a DARK PLACE and rapid-fire posting their scary abusive bullshit all over the feeds of their friends. They go silent for roughly 48 hours and then reappear, FURIOUS, because some ASSHOLE called emergency services and it resulted in an involuntary psychiatric hold that their work etc knows about now.

There is honestly nothing more hilarious than someone throwing a tantrum because someone who actually knows them (and doesn’t just exist in a hugbox online) took their suicide threat seriously and responded accordingly and responsibly and productively.

I’m convinced that none of them want to die. They want crushing tons of emotional labor from others so they can masturbate to a preview of their own fawning eulogies.

Yup. You are truly that depressed? Try therapy for months, it’s time consuming, often really uncomfortable, and requires serious effort to help you fix your own life and mind.

Oh, you just wanted lots of attention and coddling? This is my shocked face.

Not quite so bad, but my sister-in-law constantly VagueBooks and post things on her personal feed saying “got some devastating news today,” or “absolutely gutted.” No actual follow up or context of course. I typically ignore it which makes her mad but I’m not playing those idiotic games. Happy to listen if she wants to talk, not getting drawn into social media drama.

It’s a nuclear version of blue-balls: “if you don’t get me off my testicles will hurt and maybe fall off!

Now it’s “if you leave me for ‘becoming a woman’ when you were 6 months pregnant and caring for our toddler, I’ll kill myself!” “If you don’t peg me while I wear your lingerie I’ll kill myself!” “If you don’t include me in your women’s networking lunch I’ll kill myself!”

Not my problem, dude.

Pretty sure that when you're being told "I'll kill myself if you do Thing X", and Thing X is not a crime, it's almost always correct to do Thing X.

People who are actually suicidal don't use it as a weapon to control others. And Thing X nearly always entails setting a boundary.

I completely agree. When I was in college I was in a relationship with an abusive man. He threatened suicide every time I tried to stand up for myself.

my ex threatened it endlessly, I just started rolling my eyes at it, it was like a daily thing, low and behold he's still alive, all those mantrums and threats never amounted to anything, just a big nasty toddler doing the scream and scream and scream thing until they are stick (and then you are expected to clean up after them)

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