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Same as the reason why they don't like gays, lesbians and bi's. It's not normal and it's sinful to them, not because being trans goes against feminism and is harmful to women.

They don't give a shit about that, they just see a man wearing a dress and automatically think they're a freak (even if they aren't trans)

It just pisses me off when some women think we should be partnering with these people. I would not partner with these people if they were the last people on earth. We need to make OUR voice the dominant voice against TRA's, not the right wingers who want to send us back to the kitchen.

Same as the reason why they don't like gays, lesbians and bi's. It's not normal and it's sinful to them, not because being trans goes against feminism and is harmful to women. They don't give a shit about that, they just see a man wearing a dress and automatically think they're a freak (even if they aren't trans) It just pisses me off when some women think we should be partnering with these people. I would not partner with these people if they were the last people on earth. We need to make OUR voice the dominant voice against TRA's, not the right wingers who want to send us back to the kitchen.

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Thank you OP, I agree with you 100%. I know allying with right-wingers can occasionally be a necessary evil, but like . . . in America they've literally taken our rights to control our own bodies away from us. I live in a state that just made abortion illegal and I will never, ever agree with conservatives just because they know what a woman is (and want to subjugate us).

It's true and you should say it. Not sure why we can criticize and shit talk the problems with the US democratic party or other less-far-right parties around the world and that's generally fine, but if you talk about how evil and dangerous the US religious right is you get a bunch of complaints about being centrist and moderate and not alienating the religious whackjobs who think women must be forced to have babies.

[–] ProMoleratWaxer #1 Worst Poster 20 points Edited

Right wingers will see a little boy in a dress and say it's "obviously sexual grooming" while holding a little girl on the other arm in worse condition as a 'god given role' it's like they are only allowed to see half of a picture at a time.

TRAs: men are masculine people MRAs: men are masculine males RFs: men are male adult humans

Basic belief differences, I think we should put it plainly that radfems don't believe that women are a 'gender' basically in the same way that you don't believe bitches are a 'gender of canine' you believe it is a body type (aka reproductive anatomy) of a canine. TMRAs both genuinely want to maintain men and women as different social castes because they're evil and stupid to put it simply.

To put it more lengthily both believe men and women naturally have different psyches that determine a social position which is... . Sexist obviously and not substantiated by science, there is not any proof that babies are born with inherent knowledge of pronouns, lust for pink or blue, knowledge or value of sexual characteristics because thats insane. When you're arguing with TRAs they will bring up brsin scans of boys that have been raised in effeminate lifestyles from toddler hood and that they have comparable feminine brain types to feminine girls which, yes obviously men and women can have the same effeminate behaivour if they are raised the same, our brains are not different - that is entirely irrelevant to you because it's not a body type, but THEY think effeminate= female. You can easily catch them up with 'how is that relevant' , and so on because you don't believe in the correspondence between gender (feminine and masculine) and body type (man or woman) and they will continually conflate it.

Right wingers will call boys playing with dolls grooming while telling girls to wear dresses and act ladylike.

That may be true for certain subsets but I don’t think that’s true for the majority.

I grew up in a mostly poor, rural white area full of right-wingers and there were plenty of girls in camo learning to hunt or running around getting muddy in pants. I see just as much (maybe more) doll-playing from the girls in my child’s elementary school in a super liberal city as I did growing up.

The aggressive gendering in the rural areas I grew up in the most is getting worse and worse. Now the girls and women have pink rhinestone everything, super impractical tight-fitting clothes, expensive hairdos, long awful nails, and cake themselves in makeup and jewelry so much more than I remember. They are so afraid of kids being gay or gender nonconforming that they double down on the pink and blue starting with gender reveal parties that were never a thing when I was a kid.

[–] Eava 11 points

Girls have been allowed to be GNC to the extent those activities are seen as necessary and useful. If you are preparing for Armageddon, little Lucy better know how to hunt, climb a tree, etc. Those skills will help the family survive. But don't expect those same families being ok with Timmy learning to knit or sew, or take ballet.
I think in places with really strong gun culture you will see women hunt and shoot even if they aren't Preppers. Look at Sarah Palin and Lauren Boebert. Both love their guns, but both are extremely feminine.

[–] SlowCollapse 34 points Edited

Right wingers don't like transgenderism as they see it as the indoctrination, drugging, and mutilation of children.

They're also against the TRA onslaught on free speech. And against the 'depravity' of parading fetishes in public, particularly when it's in front of children.

They may still be 'the enemy' on many other issues, but it's worth considering that even 'the right' is slowly evolving over time (There's much more acceptance of LGB people, and they're not all religious or anti-abortion these days)

Don't do what the TRAs do and hate people just because you've been told to hate them (e.g JK Rowling!). First listen to or read at least a little bit of what they have to say. Decide for yourself.

[–] chemical 4 points Edited

Right wingers have no problem with the indoctrination of children, as long as it adheres to their own ideology. Who else is teaching women that that ultimate goal of womanhood is to be a mother, that women are destined to be comfortable of the trappings of femininity, that women are best predisposed to the domestic sphere? And while they're against the public demonstration of fetishes, they believe that female submission/male dominance in the bedroom is a matter of course, and don't even possess the self-awareness to term it a fetish.

The political right accepts LGB people insofar as they believe homo/bisexuality is some situationally-onset aberration that is best contained behind the private walls of adults. Sure, gay adults can "live their lifestyle," so long as they keep it to themselves and away from the prying eyes of children. And God forbid one of our children succumbs to it. Let's not forget that the majority of young transitioners are same-sex attracted, and if you hear their parents speak on the manner, it becomes evident there's a hefty streak of social conservatives who would rather their children be "gender conforming" transitioners rather than GNC people who accept their birth sex. See this video for reference, where a pastor who refused to let his son play with dolls and wear dresses, more readily accepts the idea that he must have a female soul than he is a boy who likes pink and dresses.

Abortion is another choice accepted as long as the woman receiving it possesses the proprietary shame, and ideally only in the case of fetal abnormalities and no other circumstance. Even the ones who are more right-wing in terms of economic affairs rather than social matters, still don't believe misogyny (or homophobia) are pressing social issues that need to be rectified.

It's extremely condescending to assume OP only dislikes the right because of what she's been told, as if a woman couldn't have organically reached that opinion. I've read plenty of literature and theory by both economically and socially conservative thinkers, and I find the best of it to be disagreeable, and the worst fundamentally repellant.

[–] Ave_Lucifuge gender atheist 10 points Edited

They're also against the TRA onslaught on free speech

Conservatives will happily censor anyone that doesn't agree with them (like all the current calls to Christian Nationalism coming out of the Republican base). They are the OGs when it comes to forcing their beliefs onto others; that's why genderism is so disappointing to many of us on the left.

[–] SlowCollapse 0 points Edited

Maybe they have the will, but do conservatives have the power to really censor anything, at least in the US or UK?

Big tech is run by the left (even if parts are owned by the right), The education system is run by the left, and the more credible parts of mainstream media are run by the left.

Big Tech is run by money, not the left. If the left had as much power as you think, we wouldn't have 6 extreme right wing conservatives on the Supreme Court and Democrats wouldn't have a bare majority in the Senate.

[–] Ave_Lucifuge gender atheist 4 points

Does it matter? I don't want anyone in power that wants to force their unsubstantiated beliefs on me, whether that's genderism or some other religion.

Why are you assuming that she didn’t decide for herself? The condescension some of you have for women who have a problem with conservatives is really something.

There are many conservatives on this site. Conservatives like the GC label but don't necessarily subscribe to the theory.

Yeah I love having a beacon of reason online but this website focuses way too much on trans and it’s because it’s the only commonality.

There are so many women on here that are not at all radical feminist they just don’t like trans people. We have 3 different circles dedicated to trans related topics but when I suggested on o/circles that there should be an “intersectional” circle for minority women on here myself included to have more nuanced discussions on racism/sexism and how they play into each other I just had someone say “well we can’t spread out the website we’re so small!”

Idk. I feel like we need less about trans specific stuff on here and more general radical feminist discourse

[–] SlowCollapse 6 points Edited

Because it's an attack based on a label, rather than a consistent set of views. A label usually applied by activists, rather than the individuals themselves.

'Conservative' is a wide spectrum, Politics is non-binary!

"TRA" is an attack based on a label, rather than a consistent set of views. A label usually applied by GC activists, rather than the individuals themselves.

'Trans rights activism' is a wide spectrum. Politics is non-binary!

I hope this helps you see how silly this sounds. On top of that, conservatives actually do self identify as conservative and right wing relatively often, while none of the gender ideologues have ever identified as the acronym TRA. Or, for that manner, gender ideologues. It would be embarrassingly hypocritical to criticize someone for disliking a group of people termed conservatives, on the basis that it's not a label they chose themselves and that it muddles together quite an incoherent group of people, then call people TRA. There's probably more ideological consistency across conservatives than there is TRAs.

There are many conservatives on this site. Conservatives like the GC label but don't necessarily subscribe to the theory.

They may still be 'the enemy' on many other issues, but it's worth considering that even 'the right' is slowly evolving over time (There's much more acceptance of LGB people, and they're not all religious or anti-abortion these days)

I'm very skeptical of this. If there's any increasing liberalization, I'm not seeing it in America, at least. (Obviously right-left works differently in other countries, but, well...)

First listen to or read at least a little bit of what they have to say.

There's a reason I don't live in the South right now, and oppose their sort of politics. I'm not saying that they're bad as people (hell no!) or everything they say is wrong, but... the "traditional values" people obviously shouldn't be feminist allies. The antonym of "misdirected hypertolerance" is not "misdirected hyperbigotry." It's directed-at-only-the-right-things tolerance that isn't "hyper."

I'm starting to wonder how many users here are actual feminists, and how many are just right-wingers who happen to also dislike trans ideology.

[–] Eava 16 points

I've been wondering the same thing. Or truly gender essentialist women. I've seen some breastfeeding posts here that rival what you see in religious communities where the highest aspiration women should have is to be mothers. And I say that as a mother.

This is correct. The general arguments on this site of “conservatives bad” shows how little some liberals actually know of what conservatives believe.

It’s been documented many times that conservatives are able to put themselves in liberal shoes and answer questions as liberals would but the reverse is not true.

I’ve done my best to understand reasoning on many issues from both sides as not to demonize one or the other.

In their moderate forms the right and left have always served to balance each other. Going to progressive too quickly usually leads to despotism and going too right leads to not making any progress in improving equality among (actually) oppressed groups.

I’m way over the assumption that liberal women couldn’t know what conservatives are like. Many of us were raised by conservative parents or in areas where they dominate or indoctrinated in their schools and religions and political campaigns and think tanks. And we absolutely have family members and friend’s family members who’ve become more progressive and some who’ve moved to the alt right because their shitty, dark personalities always belonged there. How many times have the liberal women here been clear about that, yet none of you listen?

[–] tymps 14 points Edited

Agreed. I'm tired of these assumptions, and I'm really sick of seeing women (and experiencing this myself) being condescended to and downvoted for criticizing conservatives or not being on board with allying with them. I would bet that most of us understand conservatives quite well. Some of us live in red states (and/or grew up in them), many of us have had conservative relatives or peers, and we're all certainly capable of thinking for ourselves. Additionally, some of us are lesbians like myself and have plenty of firsthand experience with conservative homophobia. I'm white, but I'm sure that many women of color could say something similar about conservative racism as well. None of this is to say that there isn't homophobia or racism among leftists because unfortunately there definitely is, of course. I'm just really sick of these conversations on here. Any time someone dares to oppose or even just question allying with conservatives, we get treated like we're idiots. It's unfair and frankly insulting.

That completely rubbed me the wrong way too. I understand conservatives perfectly. I am surrounded by them and have been since birth. I was indoctrinated into being conservative myself. They aren't wrong on everything, but they are most definitely wrong.

Hear, hear. I know what they believe and their justifications and they're still woman-hating garbage. Right wingers have this persistent, smugnorant idea that those of us who are not tolerating their ridiculous, backwards religious beliefs on women and society means we just don't understand their repellent ideology. They're exactly like gender believers in that regard, constantly telling us to read and listen to trans-identified people as though we haven't heard far too much of their nonsense already.

Did I say liberal women? I said liberals in general. There are multiple studies, one I’m referring to by psychologist Jonathan Haidt (a liberal btw) that showed what I talked about.

I’ve been very leftist most of my life despite growing up in very conservative areas until the last 2 years I’ve become much more middle of the road as I can no longer stand with what “progressive” leftism is fighting for. I was radicalized and admittedly very ignorant of what exactly I stood against.

Liberal feminism lead me down a path of promiscuity as “female empowerment” that lead me to allowing access of my body to men that absolutely had no business being there and also got me in situations where I was raped. In situations where I accepted the bare minimum from men in relationships because that’s okay if you’re a “strong independent woman”

Sure we all have our personal experiences of conservatism, yours sounds quite traumatic. That doesn’t mean your experience constitutes a whole and neither does mine.

I know conservatives who are good people and I know liberals who are good people.

I know conservatives that are shitty people and I know liberals that are shitty people.

I tend not to make sweeping generalizations anymore because it doesn’t serve to further progress of any sort and only serves to divide.

[–] sohh 10 points Edited

Yep. And you have to cross the aisle to get things done. That’s how politics works.

We’re in a situation in the US now where both parties’ representatives are supporting increasingly extreme positions in a cynical effort to pander to crazies to gain their loyalty. That’s all that each party wants at the end of the day: a loyal base. If GCs can successfully lobby one party or the other, we can influence them to focus on courting our vote instead of the crazies.

Obama tried to work across the aisle for 8 years, he got the Affordable Care Act passed and then Dems lost the 2010 midterms because it wasn't good enough. He tried to work with McConnell and it got us Gorsuch on SCOTUS. The GOP doesn't give a crap about working with Democrats on any significant issues.

Exactly. The extreme tribalism that’s now the norm in current politics will never get us towards solving anything.

In my mind ''right wingers'' is a term used for extreme conservatives, which is why i phrased it that way instead of just ''conservatives don't like...''. I don't particularly like conservatives either and not simply because i'm ''told'' to not like them. I do my research so you can rest assured.

But these days you're labelled 'right wing' if you merely question the narrative on certain issues (trans, immigration, cancel culture)

Doesn't matter if you've voted for left-leaning parties/candidates all your life...

This post isn't about being called right wing once even if you've voted left all your life, it's about extreme conservatives (or ''right wingers'' as i mean in this post) being anti trans simply because it's not normal to them rather than destroying women's rights and being toxic in many other ways.

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I think a lot of this comment section would benefit from reading Right Wing Women by Andrea Dworkin.

It's rather befuddling to me that some commenters seem to think the Democratic party are a coalition of radical far leftists. The Democrats are milquetoast centrists, at best, hence why none of their political aims do much to advance the liberation of women. Nobody who is a leftist proper views the Democrats as the vanguards of leftism, lol.

[–] littleowl12 19 points Edited

There's a spectrum of conservatives, along with a spectrum of depth, intelligence, and critical thought. I have definitely seen conservatives understand the problem, even offering good insights. I have seen plenty who smirk and say

"Well, this is the world feminists wanted. Women, you brought it on yourselves."

"Soy boys!!!!!!!"

"Teachers teach school in a girly way and this happens."

"Well, to be honest, I don't think porn causes it per se...."

And it's hard not to be suspicious when there was so much gay-hating in the 90's, and downright venom for masculine women.

If you are going to side with conservatives you might as well be a TRA as you have the same essential goal. It’s impossible to be a conservative feminist.

So, if the entire world were inhabited by conservatives and everyone in it held the exact same set of conservative beliefs, there would be no point in feminism? There's no point in women trying to improve their position within the framework of their existence?

What in the word salad. I’m autistic and I do not do hypothetical nonsense. Would you like to make a comment based in reality?

The right doesn't like the GNC people either, and they find it a bit odd. This is not good, please don't use the right as your allies.

Men can wear skirts. Women can grow beards. But these people can't go around mixing others in their fetish.

Women can grow beards

??? Most women can't unless they take male hormones.

Most women don't have PCOS and even those that do still don't grow actual beards, they just have more facial hair than typical women

I believe the polarization and destruction of the moderate is how we got here, honestly. Leftists blasted their moderates and insincere traitors, and right wingers did the same to theirs. That's why Mitt Romney and John McCain were labeled as "RINOs" and are/were pariahs for not being extreme enough.

That's why the mainstream left is the mess that it is now. A perfectly rational leftist is supposed to think it's reasonable to chop off the breasts of 12 year olds and accept Rachel Levine as a woman.

Meanwhile, a perfectly rational conservative is supposed to think that a fertilized egg is a person, and that the majority of women are baby killers for supporting abortion rights. They're expected to believe that pollution doesn't harm the planet.

This ridiculous quest to prove to our peers that we're as distant from the opposite side as can be? That's why we are where we are.

Yeah, that's a good summation. Both those sets of extreme beliefs are insane.

99.99% of the time an adult male in a dress is a freak (sexual deviant) regardless of whether he is trans. Unless it's a dress made for men, guilty until proven innocent IMHO.

Scream it from the mountains, sister! Siding with them is begging to get to jump from the fire into the frying pan.

I do, however, know at least two people who got peaked so hard by tras that it right cured them of their conservatism. So that's a win.

[–] Lipsy i/just/can't 9 points

I do, however, know at least two people who got peaked so hard by tras that it right cured them of their conservatism

I'd love any additional details you might wana add about either of these two, if you don't mind sharing.

I'm intrigued... For starters, because most articulations of "conservatism"—actually pretty much all of them, except classical liberalism—have deep roots in preserving certain inequities that favor the core groups of conservatives themselves, which makes "curing ppl of their conservatism" a tremendously exceptional achievement (it ain't every day that you can go out and convince somebody to renounce their own position of advantage).

Even more intrigued because practically the entire developed world currently accepts the whole-ass lie that transgenderism is an affliction of "liberals" / "the left".
It's deeply disheartening to me—like, it actually hurts—to see so many people with a solid history of REAL inclusivity (the uplifting, prosocial, leave-the-world-a-little-better-than-you-found-it type) completely failing to recognize a worldview built entirely on regressive hidebound old stereotypes that we all wanted to put to bed until 3.2 milliseconds ago—even when those stereotypes are shamelessly paraded in front of everyone, like when the child-mutilating ghouls say with a perfectly deadpan Professional Smile™ that we really ought to consider chopping the tits off of Girls who like playing in mud or tinkering with mechanical things, or castrating boys who have the temerity to pick up a doll or try on a skirt.

Keep in mind - I'm in Germany and our mentality is a bit different.

The first one is a man in his 60ies. The only child is a gay man. Apparently, it was a super drama at first, but the wife finally stood up and told him to quit destroying their family. So he decided to show support by going to pride events and inform himself. He must have been throughly disgusted by everything there, at the same time he realized that way more people in his surroundings are gay and lesbians. It put him into an identity crisis at first, then he decided to just being okay with liking or disliking people for their individual character. Last election, he proudly told everyone he handed in an empty ballot. I believe, it's mostly due to his wife telling him to not be an asshole. The whole family seems happier. Also, somehow they all seem lovably confused on everything. For example : the wife forced him out of the driver's seat (his eyesight is getting bad), but she's a horrible driver (lack of practice). They are always cruising around incredibly slow these days.

The other one funnily enough was a huge Merkel fan. Since you can't exactly call her a classic conservative, he just evolved with her and then became horrified by the rollback on gender stereotypes (on account of Merkel being a scientist). I think, he still is a member of the conservative party, but he has moved a lot as a person (he sponsors a girl soccer team and is very active in trying to get more women out of Afghanistan). He also has noticed that men (Putin, Trump, Bolsonaro, Berlusconi) are a problem and points out that the left also has a severe men problem. I guess his ideal Germany would be a friendly dictatorship run by Angela Merkel and female scientists.

[–] Lipsy i/just/can't 2 points

Thank you! I appreciate your taking the time, and I love your storytelling voice. ("Lovably confused" 🥰)

Every country is different, for sure, but there are some remarkably strong parallels between German and American politics broadly speaking. Plenty of stories I've read about tensions between the German federal states of the former Soviet occupation zone / former GDR and the western / former FRG states could easily be re-published as stories about similar tensions between the U.S. "South" (southeast, former Confederacy) and the rest of the country—literally without changing a single word of the story besides the geographic names.

As for systemic differences between the U.S. and German political environments, a lot of those owe to the existence of a parliamentary system with multiple viable parties in Germany, as opposed to the increasingly polarized U.S. landscape with only two parties of any actual significance. It'd be... nice to have more options over here.

Last election, he proudly told everyone he handed in an empty ballot.

Is voting mandatory? If so, for what age range of voters—and are there any groups (e.g. prisoners) who are systematically disenfranchised?

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