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The right wing Brothers of Italy led by Georgia Meloni has just swept into power. Their policies are a combination of nativist/anti-immigration, promoting of traditional sex roles and ‘anti-LGBT’ policies.

Of course, as you might suspect, ‘anti-LGBT’ seems to mean to a large extent ‘against trans ideology’

I looked up the vote share on Wikipedia … it’s shot right up since the last election in a way that seems quite extraordinary … unless it’s a response to a trans explosion. 4.5% of the vote to about 30%

Has the Terven been hard at work in Italy these last few years? Or is there some other factor I’m missing that would account for this?

Biased libfem article here:

https://hyperallergic.com/651671/zan-bill-causing-current-wave-of-transphobic-panic-in-italy/

The right wing Brothers of Italy led by Georgia Meloni has just swept into power. Their policies are a combination of nativist/anti-immigration, promoting of traditional sex roles and ‘anti-LGBT’ policies. Of course, as you might suspect, ‘anti-LGBT’ seems to mean to a large extent ‘against trans ideology’ I looked up the vote share on Wikipedia … it’s shot right up since the last election in a way that seems quite extraordinary … unless it’s a response to a trans explosion. 4.5% of the vote to about 30% Has the Terven been hard at work in Italy these last few years? Or is there some other factor I’m missing that would account for this? Biased libfem article here: https://hyperallergic.com/651671/zan-bill-causing-current-wave-of-transphobic-panic-in-italy/

31 comments

It' s not because of gender, it' s a mixture of things that includes wokeness (especially towards Muslims), detachment from their historical demographic (workers, mostly), general ineptitude and hypocrisy of the left, their instability when it comes to leading the country (very often, they can' t even finish a mandate before they have to resign), their attitude as the morally superior choice when they really have no reason to, the way the EU has treated us in the past few years when it comes to migrants (with the left showing how happy they are of that treatment) and obviously the migrant crisis itself.

Gender and LGBT issues are definitely part of it, as the Zan debacle last year has shown (and yes, there were many radical feminists who fought like lionesses against it), but I don' t think it' s the main reason why right wingers are on the rise here. Even though it' s quite likely that the escalation of this topic in the rest of the west and Europe (and the admittedly increase of visibility of these people in the media even here) has sent my country into prevention mode and lots of us decided that it would be better to stop it before it spreads too much instead of going the USA/UK way and dealing with the brutal consequences after horrible damage has been done already.

But in general, we are just really dissatisfied with our leftist politicians (who behave pretty much like leftist politicians in any other country, so they' re lying, useless scumbags who would happily say that water is dry and refuse to admit they are wrong if it were beneficial for them) and with the EU, and unfortunately Meloni and Salvini are the only ones savvy enough to point out how hypocritical and nonsensical the left in its entirety is. And unlike Berlusconi, they don' t sound like senile morons.

The migrant issue was horrible when I first visited almost 20 years ago. I guess no one should really be surprised that Italians are sick of bearing the brunt of EU policies. I actually wonder how much it has to do with the rise of the right generally throughout the west.

I know one thing that really has kind of hardened my heart to undocumented immigrants in America, as an American, is the fact that it's no longer central or south Americans who are the majority crossing our southern border without papers now. I heard this on I think NPR?? It's majority East Asians, South Asians, and Eastern Europeans now. They are flying to central and south America specifically to illegally cross over from the south.

I still think it's insane to build a wall (the southern border is a deadly desert for chrissakes! Who needs a wall??), and I still think Trump is horrible and the whole build the wall thing was xenophobic and racist. But you can't tolerate open borders, that is crazy. We have to have law and order for society to function and we have to know who is here.

I don't know what the solution is for Europe, but I really think we have to do something about our immigration laws to tighten things up here. That and we have to start prosecuting people who hire immigrants for cheap under the table to avoid paying fair wages and taxes. Ultimately that is the reason people come here. We create a very dangerous situation for children especially with this terrible shadow immigration system that is extremely dangerous. Something has to be done.

[–] mittimithai male 6 points Edited

Neither political party in the US has any intention of stopping undocumented immigration. There is an entire class doing all the nation's scutwork for no social security and is completely dispensable. If employers were fined for hiring hiring undocumented individuals, this type of immigration would stop tomorrow.

It's majority East Asians, South Asians, and Eastern Europeans now.

I cannot see how this could possibly be true: https://www.migrationpolicy.org/data/unauthorized-immigrant-population/state/US

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-26/most-migrants-crossing-into-the-us-are-now-from-remote-countries

I misremembered. Looks like it's from further south primarily, although there are some other articles I ran across about people flying to cross the border that give pause.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/16/us/migrants-border-coronavirus-pandemic.html

https://www.newsweek.com/under-biden-more-european-asian-migrants-seek-entry-us-mexico-border-1609061

I believe what I heard also mentioned these groups, so I assume this has continued, even though the articles about crossings by Indians and Romani are now about a year old.

The 1951 Refugee Convention was entirely drawn up based on WWII and the displacement and movement of people that arose from that conflict, and the reasons - mainly the actions of either Hitler or Stalin - that led to people no longer being able to live where they once did, sometimes because the war had changed the borders of several countries.

I don’t think the drafters of the convention for one moment envisaged an asylum seeker situation as seen now. I think it is not unreasonable to seek to update the Convention to reflect modern day realties and strike a balance between offering refuge to those fleeing persecution but strengthening protections so that the asylum route is not seen as a viable alternative to legal migration routes for those not fleeing persecution. I think one piece of research found that a majority of those granted asylum regularly return to the country which they claim presents a danger to them.

Thanks for the perspective! The plot-losing from the left sounds depressingly familiar

Unfortunately, it seems like something like this is happening pretty much everywhere.

And the fact that pretty much nobody in the leftist parties (in Italy and outside of Italy) is sitting down and seriously thinking about why it is happening and instead they just throw the "fasci/nazi/racist/bigot" label at everyone is wrecking my mind. They are not giving us anything that can be considered even half decent and are supporting incredibly unpopular topics and messages, and yet they are surprised that most people are looking elsewhere for representation in politics.

I am personally in the "they are equally bad" camp, so I am definitely not happy that this is the result of the elections, but I wouldn' t have been happy with them losing and Letta/Calenda/Conte/Di Maio winning just as much, so basically, I am just going to watch what is going to happen.

and instead they just throw the "fasci/nazi/racist/bigot" label at everyone

Exactly. That's my feeling these days. This is all they have to offer: Labels! Vote for us so you can wear the "better" label.

As long as the left supports capitalism and rich people, the masses will continue to vote for populists and right wing parties.

Immigration, the economy and a divided left are what most think are the main reasons.

Meloni's hostility to genderism is likely to cause a lot of conflict with the EU government as it already does with Hungary and Poland.

The LGBs who do not disavow the T are not on our side. If EVERY LGB would kick the T to the curb then the message would be clear to society that we are separate. But no, we are the hateful minority, and we will all go down because of it. I will NEVER forgive the LGBs who are with the T for doing this.

[–] ProMoleratWaxer #1 Worst Poster 21 points

Basically no one likes the gendies except for other gendies. Maybe righties like the truscum but that's predictable. I don't think feminists 'empowered the right wing' as much as postmods completely destroy the left and any material allyship with the working class

Interesting how all this crap started taking off right after the Occupy movements fell apart. With identity politics dividing the lower classes no one's looking up anymore.

I got the impression that Occupy self-destructed due to identity politics, rather than being killed off by those in power

there is a conspiracy theory that there was government interference injecting idpol into occupy. wouldnt surprise me, we know for a fact that the FBI sends agents undercover out to political activist groups, but i havent read any concrete information, just suppositions.

Don’t they have a huge problem absorbing all the migrants that are coming, since Ghadafi fell?

Yeah, it's this more than anything, I think. And a difficult economy on top of that.

Yes. And they've had an employment problem since my grandparents left to immigrate.

[–] SlowCollapse 10 points Edited

Radical approaches to gender and race are part of it, but it's happening in other areas too. Everything has to be radical to the point of being destructive, and it's pushing the moderates rightward:

"We must have a world with no borders, anything else is racist!" - But they never talking about the massive infrastructure construction required to support rapidly rising populations in their borderless utopia. (Certainly an issue in the UK, with a perpetual housing crisis, and transport and healthcare at breaking point. It'd be very 'uncool' to suggest a major road-building program, but we really do need it)

"We're in a climate emergency" (OK), "We need to shut down loads of farms, stop the cow farts, turn you all vegan and take away your transport and therefore your jobs!" (Not OK... Seriously, if climate change threatens mass starvation, we really don't want to reduce food production)

"Defund the police" as a nation riots, and other soft-on-crime policies, while crime rises. Seemingly ignoring certain types of violence if it may make certain identity groups look bad (Also suggesting the solution to all our transport woes is for everybody to ride bikes, completely ignoring the bike theft epidemic)

When moderates can't even express an opinion or ask a question without being labeled racist, they really have no choice but to jump ship to the right leaning parties who will at least LISTEN to them

No, it's because the left has become the choice of rich people living in the city centers. Also, italians are tired, disheartened and hopeless. At every election new parties always get the majority of the preferences (like M5S in 2018).

I will NOT “think of the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act.” Take their names out of your mouth.

People are against massive immigration, they're called "racists" and "bigots," and they get pushed farther right.

The democratic mayor of El Paso, Texas, has been busing people out of Texas for a while because his city just cannot absorb anymore immigrants. He manages to do this on the left, but most people are being pushed to the right for supporting such policies. Since Italy has a huge immigration problem, it's not surprising more people are moving rightward.

I don't think transgenderism is that big a deal in Italy.

Not yet, but TRAs are trying their damnedest. There has been a surge of visibility of these people and men in drag in the media for a while (the usual "tearkerking" stories about wanting acceptance because they pose no threat and encouragement to play along with their bullshit), and there have been legal and political fights regarding "sex changes", child transition and hate crime bills with gender identity in it (the last of which was thankfully scrapped last year), not to mention the usual handmaidens who promote "neutral language" and similar shit, but in general it' s still a niche and things like the new letter invented to erase grammatical gender have been met with ridicule and/or disgust. I heard journalists during the news "misgendering" Manning last year and I haven' t really seen anything big against that.

We' re always a little late to fads and social trends here, usually it' s not that good, but in this case it is incredibly helpful.

[–] Tiramisuomi 0 points Edited

Nah, it's mostly because of racism/xenophobia since Italy is one of the countries frequently a destination for African/Middle Eastern refugees on boats.

This other shit plays perfectly into their hand, but that's the root of it. At least that's my hot take as a non-Italian.

ETA: I realize I made it sound like any objection to uncontrolled migration is racist. Although any right-wing, nationalist movement is going to be racist and weaponize immigration as a rule, there is plenty of room to argue that the situation is not sustainable for anyone of any political leaning.

[–] SlowCollapse 17 points Edited

Criticism of uncontrolled immigration isn't just 'hate'.

If you import a whole load of people, you need to build a whole load of infrastructure to support and house a rising population (not just homes: roads, schools, hospitals, power stations, sewage works, reservoirs...).

But this is a very inconvenient truth. Building infrastructure is seen by the 'no borders' crowd as destruction of the environment, and then there's the matter of funding it.

It can also be argued that governments are exploiting immigration for cheap labour, to keep wages down.

Oh, no doubt. I'm not saying that any objection to the situation amounts to racism, but it's definitely at play in the pushback.

It's a situation with no easy, black and white answer. These people are desperate enough to leave everything behind, all for the hope of correcting the cosmic injustice of being born there while we were born here. But at the same time... shit, everything you said. You know? The push and pull over issues like this has no hope of getting anywhere until/unless people learn to stop dealing in absolutes and commit to figuring it out for real.

Aside from the infrastructure challenges of absorbing huge numbers of undocumented migrants, there is the cultural change that comes with absorbing tens of thousands of people who do not share your values, religion, cultural heritage, etc. I don't begrudge anyone for wanting to hold on to their culture. The migrants from World War II were all from the same European Judeo-Christian heritage and ultimately all from the same family root of Europeans. This is different. I read an article the other day about how Stockholm is 20% migrant Muslim now and parents cannot let their children venture into certain neighborhoods, which have become hives of violence and the center of humiliating extortion videos where children are kidnapped and urinated on on video in order to extort funds from parents. It sounds crazy but it's happening. Politically correct leftist denial and "niceness" have allowed this to happen.