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Hey! I’m going to be annoying and make another post about something I’ve noticed going down within our community!

Who else, as a result of being cancelled and classed with Nazis for pointing out the conflict between gender identity rights and sex-based rights- not to mention the extreme abuses of any woman mentioning this, both from rabid, violently threatening TRAs and also from (and more chillingly, IMO) governments and corporations- has begun to wonder whether any dearly-held notions about the Wrongthink of those with different political views is a result of indoctrination, and quite possibly totally incorrect?

Another way of putting this is: how many people (I’m assuming the majority of us are left-wing) feel more open-minded about conservative opinions, and is this a bad thing? How about other political views dismissed by the neoliberal leftists? (A completely different question). This includes everything from not considering liberals to actually be leftist (I concur with this view) to thinking libertarianism is the way (personally I think libertarian socialism is the way, or perhaps that there are different ways for different communities, but people tell me the former is an oxymoron and the latter is untrue, because the only right way is their way).

Just call me devil’s advocate! For reference, after an illuminating conversation with another woman I began to question whether being pro-life should automatically revoke a woman’s feminist credentials (and I say this as someone who has actually had an abortion).

If you disagree with me that we should consider the viewpoints of those other than leftists, or indeed on any other points, let me know in the comments please!

Hey! I’m going to be annoying and make another post about something I’ve noticed going down within our community! Who else, as a result of being cancelled and classed with Nazis for pointing out the conflict between gender identity rights and sex-based rights- not to mention the extreme abuses of any woman mentioning this, both from rabid, violently threatening TRAs and also from (and more chillingly, IMO) governments and corporations- has begun to wonder whether any dearly-held notions about the Wrongthink of those with different political views is a result of indoctrination, and quite possibly totally incorrect? Another way of putting this is: how many people (I’m assuming the majority of us are left-wing) feel more open-minded about conservative opinions, and *is this a bad thing?* How about other political views dismissed by the *neoliberal* leftists? (A completely different question). This includes everything from not considering liberals to actually be leftist (I concur with this view) to thinking libertarianism is the way (personally I think libertarian socialism is the way, or perhaps that there are different ways for different communities, but people tell me the former is an oxymoron and the latter is untrue, because the only right way is their way). Just call me devil’s advocate! For reference, after an illuminating conversation with another woman I began to question whether being pro-life should automatically revoke a woman’s feminist credentials (and I say this as someone who has actually had an abortion). If you disagree with me that we should consider the viewpoints of those other than leftists, or indeed on any other points, let me know in the comments please!

51 comments

[–] ladybrainhaver 55 points (+55|-0)

It has made me reexamine some of my views, but at the end of the day I still hold the same values and am still pretty left-leaning. A healthy amount of skepticism is necessary to avoid falling victim to bandwagoning IMO. Issues are generally waaaaay more nuanced than hard liberal or hard conservative types like to think and ability to spot holes, bias or misinformation in your arguments is a great skill to have regardless of where you fall. Never feel bad about thinking for yourself!

[–] Boudicaea 7 points (+7|-0)

Exactly. My terfhood opened the door for me to think critically about my left-leaning views, but I still think by and large the left is the better way. Or moderate left, anyhow.

There are only a few things that I have really changed on. Mainly no longer believing public schools are the way to go.... I have had enough bad experiences that I see through that party line now that I've allowed myself to do so. I also am not so sure unions are the best answer to every worker's rights issue. The best answer is actually decent legislation to protect workers, and real enforcement against predatory companies and employers. Sometimes unions cause more problems than they solve. Particularly teacher and police unions.

There are some other things, but these are the main issues I didn't think to question until I was called a terf for questioning whether a transwoman was actually a woman just like I am a woman.

[–] PumpkinSpiceVagina 30 points (+31|-1)

Yes to everything. I've felt like this a long time. Basically everyone I'm related to is a Christian conservative and that is how I was brought up too so I have always had sort of a fundamental understanding of why people hold a lot of these beliefs even though I disagree with them. As a result, I've never been rabidly anti-conservative even though I always considered myself to be a liberal until pretty recently.

The thing is that left-wing media in the US, which is effectively all mainstream media apart from Fox News, has basically turned into Fox News at this point. I'm not 100% sure when it started but it definitely ramped way up when Trump was elected and it just keeps getting worse. It is one of the biggest reasons why the majority of the left has this idea of conservatives and especially Trump supporters as all being, monolithically, white supremacists and homophobes and, you know, "deplorables" and why so many absolutely insist that those who supported Trump could have only done so if they were primarily motivated by white supremacy et al. But over 74 million people voted for Trump in this last election. That is a whole lot of fucking people. So many that, if they comprised their own country, it would be the 20th largest in the world, bigger than the UK. Do you honestly think that that many people in the United States are honest-to-God white supremacists, whose primary motivation in voting is to uphold white supremacy? Really? I think that is patently absurd. But the mainstream media, Hollywood, internet culture, all of them keep repeating it, so it must be true, right? Then again, these are the exact same people who also keep intoning TWAW.

I think it's important to talk to other people who have different viewpoints to at least get an idea of where they are coming from no matter how much you may disagree. You will find that most people aren't terrible people motivated by hate.

[–] dixiechick547 18 points (+18|-0)

I’m a 56 year old black woman and I am probably more of a centrist than anything. I’m left-leaning but have never been a libfem. I’m too pragmatic for much of the shit extremists on either side mouth. In that way I’m much like most middle aged black people. We don’t support socialism or socialist policies because we know white people will never support them as long as black people have equal access. How do we know this? Experience. Programs like Social Security, the GI Bill etc... were very popular until the Civil Rights Act gave black people equal access. LBJ even said that signing it would lose white people in the Democratic Party for at least a generation.

Given this history i have no problem at all believing that 70+ million Americans are white supremacist. I would’ve put the number significantly higher snd that was before Trump or even Obama came along. I probably realized this during Reagan and nothing I’ve seen since then has convinced me otherwise. He launched his campaign in Philadelphia MS site of the murders of Civil Rights martyrs Goodman, Schwerner and Chaney. Despite this flagrant racism Reagan was and still is deified by most white Americans.

One guy was saying on Twitter that his family didn’t support Trump out of racism. They were Christians and followed their church’s dictates. Okay. So ‘Christians’ are supporting an unrepentant adulterer liar and grifter. Again, all established facts BEFORE he ran for President. Why would ‘Christians’ do such a thing? Because most American churches are white supremacist as hell. Don’t believe me? Look back into the history of religion in this country. Most Protestant denominations OPPOSED the Civil Rights movement. Evangelicals supported apartheid in South Africa and don’t even get me started on ‘Christians’ and Obama.

I have no problem with Conservatives. I even agree with them on some issues. I voted for a few in my day including for governor and senator but Trumpers? Nope. That man spent decades spewing the most racist vitriol heard in this country in a generation. I have no time for them or those who create apologia on their behalf.

[–] bumpyjerboa 10 points (+10|-0)

We don’t support socialism or socialist policies because we know white people will never support them as long as black people have equal access. How do we know this? Experience.

Thank you for saying this.

My mother is a hair older than you, a staunch Republican, and white, and everything you've said tracks. She's not Richard Spencer, but the phrase "those people" is comfortable in her mouth. She's had black friends, was warm to my black friends growing up, but the "welfare queen" idea and the general politics of white resentment took hold of her (or were probably always there) and never left. She would literally rather have less than think someone who isn't deserving or who is mooching off the government (aka, in her mind, a black person) got something for "free."

I apologize if I'm speaking out of turn but I really think that many people don't understand that white supremacy isn't always a skinhead or a confederate flag toting redneck. It's someone voting against free preschool that they too could actually actively benefit from because they don't like the idea that kids of color will get something for "free."

[–] dixiechick547 9 points (+9|-0)

You’re definitely not speaking out of turn. Your mom’s mindset is exactly what I’m talking about. And it’s taken root even though it’s as detrimental to white people as it is black.

I worked on a campaign in Alabama to change the very regressive tax code. It was openly set up to keep poor people as poor as possible. This drive was led by Alabama’s very conservative Republican governor. The Wall Street Journal was in favor. It went down in flames. I called people trying to get them to vote for it. Even when I explained in real numbers how it would lower their tax bill I can’t tell you how many folks said they couldn’t vote for it because it would help black people. This was in 2005 and yes it was in Alabama but this mindset can be seen all over the country. There’s a reason the most progressive cities snd states have a low black population.

Heather McGee has a book out called The Sum of Us where she talks about this history and offers some solutions. I haven’t gotten to the solutions part yet, but I hope she has some, because Trump wasn’t the cause of the racism in this country, he was a symptom. If we don’t get real about addressing it we’ll have another Trump. And remember Trump is a bumbling idiot and he came damned close to overthrowing our government. The next one will learn from his mistakes.

[–] Tauhou 2 points (+2|-0)

In the spirit of OP, it’s ... hmmm ... what’s the word ... ‘instructive’ (haha) for me to apply an often felt loathing for “all men” (patriarchy etc.) to myself in the form of what I hear as a loathing of “all white people” re white supremacy. In other words, as a white person, I’m included in this “all white people” and naturally I don’t like it (“oh, but not me...” etc. etc.), even though I’ve been happy to do that same thing to “all men.” Maybe this is comparing apples and oranges, I don’t know, and I write this only in the spirit of inquiry, not knowing the answer or even if the problem is valid. Anyway, then the thought is, what does it mean to be in that group, to be seen as a white supremacist (an oppressor) by virtue of that membership? What does it mean for men, likewise, to be part of “all men/the patriarchy” and so to be an oppressor? If one is true, why not the other? If I’m OK with “all men” then I guess I need to be OK with “all white people”. Or not? I dunno.

[–] lulululululu 16 points (+16|-0)

Completely agreed about not believing that the vast majority of Americans are committed white supremacists, and I’m not white.

After college I took a job that required me to travel all around the US, to a lot of rural areas where it would be quite obvious that I was an outsider from my skin color. I was pretty scared at first but I took the job because I was desperate. Not a single thing ever happened to me. Since I clearly didn’t belong in these towns I had to visit, maybe people looked at me a little funny, but no one ever did anything to make me feel unsafe, and many times approached me to ask me where I was from and offer help. Occasionally someone said something a little ignorant, but if I kindly corrected them they were never mean. All these rural middle of nowhere towns I had to visit in the US, probably full of Trump supporters, and the only place I ever felt unsafe when I visited was....... Boston, known for its liberal politics.

It made me wonder, what does demonizing rural, working-white class people who were mostly nothing but kind to me or AT WORST looked at me a little funny achieve?! Almost like the ruling class needs a scapegoat?

[–] Felis_margarita 15 points (+15|-0)

Do you honestly think that that many people in the United States are honest-to-God white supremacists, whose primary motivation in voting is to uphold white supremacy?

No, I sure don’t. I think they’re talking about how woke culture frames issues, and that since the woke crowd has no argument against their criticisms they label every republican as sexist and racist so that they can then dismiss them and have everyone on the left refuse to listen to everyone on the right. (I say this as someone on the political left)

[–] naiiad-bee 15 points (+15|-0) Edited

Absolutely agree on being raised around more conservative-leaning people. My Dad has been more conservative my entire life, but for actual humanitarian reasons in his eyes. We would debate politics all the time growing up, and I learned early that we (normal people) all want to help people and do what we think is best for our society, we just come to that conclusion in different ways/methods.

It just makes me roll my eyes when I see people on the left skew all rightwingers to be bad people who have to hate women or black people (always makes me laugh because my dad is a black conservative). I’ve had plenty of discussions with rightwingers about feminism that ended well, and ESPECIALLY RIGHT WING WOMEN, who, if i DONT say the NAME “feminism” or say “all men,” agree entirely with what I say! Especially when discussing trafficking/prostitution, domestic violence, and/or gender identity shit. Its actually funny because in terms of women’s rights, conservatives are more likely to want to protect women from traffickers, being prostituted, and legal gender identity than the left is. There is hope for some aspects of womens liberation with some aspects of conservatism.

I truly think leftists need to get out of their political bubbles and actually speak to people across the aisle.

[–] lucrecia 17 points (+17|-0)

I also think the impulse to dehumanise groups of people is a massive red flag and I'm instantly wary of anyone who does it, whether they're calling themselves left, right, a gender enthusiast or a radfem.

[–] lulululululu 12 points (+12|-0)

Lol @ your point about your dad being a black conservative. My mother was a disabled Muslim immigrant to the US who LOVED George Bush. Once she became a citizen she continued to vote for Republicans because she loved George Bush so much, until Trump turned her into a Democrat. Although i dont agree with my mother’s love for George Bush and I’m glad she’s seen the light, it just goes to show how complicated human beings are and how people cannot be reduced to their demographics. There are so many more conservative POC than people think lol

[–] tervacious 13 points (+13|-0) Edited

Do you honestly think that that many people in the United States are honest-to-God white supremacists, whose primary motivation in voting is to uphold white supremacy? Really? I think that is patently absurd. But the mainstream media, Hollywood, internet culture, all of them keep repeating it, so it must be true, right? Then again, these are the exact same people who also keep intoning TWAW.

I feeeeeeel your whole comment but especially this. I am from a similar background (conservative religious of the brown immigrant variety). Your points about the media are spot on and I will use the NYT's stance on TWAW as an example of this. I ended my (20+yr) subscription in protest because their TWAW stance pushes lies onto the public through their methodical use of language (reinforced in style guides that are picked up by other media outlets and regular people) and censoring GC views. They delete comments that have high numbers of recommends or shut down comment sections when the ratio gets too GC. The NYT has set the tone and the fact that they have spent their credibility on this is appalling. It also erodes their reputation when reporting on everything else. Their op-ed columns are barely edited screeds written in woke shorthand.

They and other liberal/mainstream media outlets have the gall to talk about how anti-science Trumpers are (mask refusal, climate change) when they are shilling for men who say humans can change sex. Do we not think that conservatives aren't reading and watching this shitshow and noticing the massive effort to get us to believe a fundamental lie that's bigger than anything that came out of Trump's ever-lying mouth? Liberals cannot mock conservatives for being a bunch of dummies who believe in a sky daddy (or however they denigrate religious people) while pushing these bald-faced lies (TWAW! Sex work is work!) as truth.

[–] Makalu 1 points (+1|-0)

The real irony of the election results is that post election polls (Edison) show that all demographics - minorities and women - increased their rate of voting for Trump in comparison to their rate in 2016, ie, Latino men increased their rate of voting for Trump from 31% in 2016 to 36% in 2020. White men are the only demographic that reduced their rate of voting for Trump. Had white men voted the same as they did in 2016, Trump would have won the popular vote. Democrats are simply blind to their loss of support among women and minorities.

[–] starstuff 23 points (+23|-0)

There is more than "liberal" and "conservative". Just because one turns out to be bad doesn't mean that the other is good. Conservatives are "alpha males" who wish to control women through direct force and restrictions; liberals are "beta males" who wish to control women through coercion and social manipulation. As it is now, we aren't even really players in the game.

[–] Amareldys 22 points (+22|-0)

Views from different positions need to be considered.

Even views one considers abhorrent should be looked at, because they didn't arise out of nothing, and sometimes you can find the underlying cause of a problematic viewpoint.

[–] vulvapeople 22 points (+22|-0)

It's definitely made me more politically flexible. Seeing the lies, distortions, foolishness, and cowardice on the left with regard to trans issues has opened my eyes to other areas where they're doing the same thing. I'm pretty much at a point where I don't believe much of anything the mainstream says. Even with statistical data, I want to see the data and have a decent idea of the methodology before I buy into it.

I've also started noticing the way the news media put their thumb on the scale in stories. They won't ask obvious questions (or they did ask those questions but didn't report on the answer because it goes against the "narrative"). They'll throw details into a story that aren't relevant to the reporting but are meant to garner sympathy for a particular group. They don't fact-check things that are obviously bullshit. It irritates me even, or especially, when the issue is otherwise something I support because lying isn't the way you advance a cause, and it even makes me wonder what's really going on if the media feel it necessary to lie or distort.

It's been something of a struggle not to become reactionary myself in response to the worst excesses of the fringe left, especially given how toxic, woman-hating, and violent TRAs are. Every now and then, I have to take stock of what my beliefs are and not let their inhumanity undermine my humanity.

[–] PlainSimpleTailor 20 points (+21|-1) Edited

Nope, still not agreeing with conservatives and yes, being pro-life (which would be better described as "pro-birth") is not feminist. That has nothing to do with being "forbidden wrongthink", it's just not feminist. Just because the Big Woke tries to shut down critical thinking, there's no need to do a 180 and consider siding with conservatives. Just because I'm against liberal feminism doesn't mean I'm with anti-feminism. Also, entertaining the notion that white men might be right about womanhood and femininity after all is what got us liberal feminism in the first place, lol.

ETA: I guess I should clarify that I'm an European and the political landscape in my country is somewhat different from the US'. The spectrum of political viewpoints is pretty apparent already and many parties across the spectrum share similar views. Therefore I don't feel like "the other side" is not given enough room.

[–] eyeswideopen 13 points (+13|-0)

Conservatives are just using trans issues as a stalking horse for their anti-woman and anti-feminist agenda. It is incredibly depressing to see how many of us are so desperate for allies on this issue that we are willing to look past all of the other problems with the conservative agenda, as well as the past actions and history of conservative activists, not only with respect to women's rights, but in other areas such as racial equality and justice.

I will never make common cause with people who do not believe women must have complete ownership of their bodies, just because they agree with me that men cannot self-ID as women. More importantly, we are turning off and turning away potential liberal allies because anti-trans activism has become so associated with conservative activism. People may be OK with anti-trans activism, but they have no desire to associate with the sexists and racists that are the thought leaders of the conservative movement. I have so many liberal friends who agree that trans activism has gone too far, but look at the leading lights on the anti-trans side and say no, thanks, I want none of that, because the rest of "that" is racism, white supremacy, evolutionary essentialism, etc. We are hurting ourselves and the goal of protecting our sex-based rights by this ill-founded and short-sighted alliance we are making with the conservative movement.

[–] PlainSimpleTailor 9 points (+9|-0) Edited

A thousand times yes to all of this! I'm not one to advocate for "ideological purity" at all costs, and I think hardcore TRAs will always try to group us in with religious fundamentalists, racists and the far right, just because it aids in their quest to villainize us and get people to reject our ideas without even daring to listen to them. And I'm more than willing to talk to people who are reasonable and interested in nuanced debate, even if they happen to be conservative-leaning. However, we must not give anti-woman ideologies even one inch of ground. I can agree with conservatives on some things, but I will never proudly "march beside them", so to speak. I believe our efforts are best focused in talking to the liberal fence-sitters you speak of, the people who grow increasingly wary of the trans cult, instead of trying to make friends with people who think women don't deserve bodily autonomy.

[–] skaskull 0 points (+0|-0)

So much this. I can't believe we are reduced to either one or the other, knowing the other parties won't garner enough votes and support to effect significant changes for better.

[–] skaskull 1 points (+1|-0)

Just because I'm against liberal feminism doesn't mean I'm with anti-feminism.

I am an American, and I feel this too. I can't bring myself to agree with conservatives on so many issues. I am a staunch pro-choice, and I can't even bring myself to support "pro-birth" under the guise of "pro-life" if they can't get their shit together for a lot of programs like universal childcare, universal healthcare, UBI, etc. I'm actually angry at the left (and I thought I was so left until ROGD happened and got me peaked hard).

[–] Bogos 13 points (+13|-0)

I’ve always tried to consider the “other sides” views. I wish we had more political parties because politics is not binary, unlike sex lol.

[–] Asha95 11 points (+11|-0)

I’ve been going through this process too. I am more open minded about ideas from across the political spectrum. I feel like I’ve been ideologically unmoored, which in the long run can’t be a bad thing.

[–] Felis_margarita 9 points (+9|-0) Edited

Me. I was already starting to question the mainstream “leftist” narrative as presented in the NYTimes before the trans stuff came along. I won’t really get into the issue that was causing me to pause and think “wait a minute” since I talk about it in my real life a lot, but....I was put in the position of realizing the NYTimes was reporting on an issue with an extreme ideological bias (based in proto-wokeness), essentially controlling how people on the left perceived the issue. But this trans stuff has caused me to question EVERYTHING as it’s been fed to me by the media and tech.

So, it’s not necessarily that my values have changed, but it’s that I no longer believe anything from the media, academia, or institutions. And I say that as a graduate student in academia, working on a problem that requires other people to “believe” in me. I don’t know how to reconcile that yet, except to remind myself I am trying to work for truth and our best values (not ideology). And I know other people in these areas are also trying, and I do my best to seek them out.

But yeah, I have found myself actually listening to a broader range of viewpoints—whereas before I stayed in a strict ideological bubble and judged and dismissed people and views outside of that bubble. No more though. And what strikes me is that so many people from different ideological viewpoints agree on so much. If we could all just set our differences in “how” for a moment, we would realize that all but the craziest fringes believe in mostly the same “what”.

I say this as an American who really wants our government to be more like a social democracy found in Europe: I think the most radical thing we can do in a time of ideological purity is be willing to talk to people who aren’t in our bubble and really listen to what they have to say without dismissing them.

[–] Tokenmom 9 points (+9|-0)

I've spent my entire voting life jumping from one political party to another (Republican, Democrat, independent, and a couple of third parties). I am entirely skeptical of any one party or individual or other group who claims their way is right and everyone else is wrong. There are plenty of view points that I don't agree with, but I understand why people have them. Being open minded about, while still critically evaluating, views and policies is never a bad thing.

And yes, I think that a woman can be pro life personally, if she is pro choice politically. I know plenty of women who tend to focus on making sure all pregnancies are wanted (e.g. access to birth control, adequate sex-ed).

[–] thedarkhorse 7 points (+7|-0)

If I refused to speak with anyone who did not share my viewpoints I would have to leave my village and would be extremely lonely. You can usually find enough common ground with most people to have a conversation. I am totally ok with someone being prolife as long as it is their personal opinion and they don't try and take abortion access from others.

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