[–] Apricot_Ibex LGB Ally 🏳️‍🌈 40 points Edited

She mentions that Gen X women grew up with looser gender roles, and I think this took a toll on many millennials, many of whom internalized much stricter gender roles than they themselves even realized.

I remember the back to back comparison between an early 80s ad for Lego and one from the mid to late 90’s and early ‘00s. The 1981 ad shows a little girl in comfy jeans and a blue shirt holding up her Lego creation made out of regular-colored bricks.

By the mid-90s, there were Legos “for girls” (all pink, purple, and white, of course) that featured Barbie-like posable dolls, and the Belleville sets hardly had any real construction or creative function at all, but provided combs, brushes, and mirrors and domestic settings.

Countless other toys went this route, while toy sections continued to market baby dolls, kitchens, makeup, princesses, and cleaning toys to girls and trucks, dinosaurs, real building blocks, and super heroes to boys. It was on the one hand a grand marketing scheme; if girls needed “special” pink doll Legos, they couldn’t share the regular Lego sets with their brothers.

Same thing with clothing. After a brief reprieve during Gen X, clothes became even more genderized, with girls’ shorts and shirts being much shorter and tighter, boys’ clothes coming out in black, gray, blue, green, and red, with powerful characters and aggressive slogans proclaiming their strength and genius, and girls’ clothes in white, pink, and purple, covered in glitter and cutesy characters, proclaiming girls’ cuteness, kindness, sociability, and occasionally, their inability to do math.

Again, a theory that others in r/GC had was that this discouraged parents from being able to pass their older child’s clothes on to their opposite -sex sibling.

Culturally, at least in the US, the early 80s saw the political rise of the Moral Majority and ultra-conservative religious right, so the entire cultural direction had shifted from what it was in the 70s, back towards “old fashioned values” and gender roles. There was an anti-feminist backlash and blaming of women working outside the home for every social ill imaginable and extreme homophobia was prevalent.

While all of this was happening, violent, hardcore porn was on the rise, so that as millennial girls reached puberty and went into junior high and high school, that would be part of their introduction to sexuality.

Meanwhile (and the article covers this), a diluted “choice feminism” was also the sole form of feminism even visible in the mainstream, and it was sending young girls all sorts of mixed messages, that being abused, “submissive,” pornified, and objectified could actually be “liberating.” This has gotten even worse over the last 25 years or so. Feminism (in the mainstream) became nothing more than a capitalist buzzword to market “girl power” cosmetics and teen fashion magazines.

Sex pozzi “choice feminism,” which may have had good intentions, warped from a message of not shaming women for simply existing as sexual beings and erasing sexist double standards, to catering to abusive male fetishists.

When gender identity BS started to blow up, which still reinforced all these rigid roles, it appeared to offer a twisted form of a “get out of jail” card to women— you don’t like your “choice” of being a sex object, a submissive people pleaser, with boring toys and uncomfortable clothes, spending your entire life catering to men? Then maybe YOU ARE a man!

And since trans was wrongfully lumped in with LGB in this same time frame, and millennials who grew up with conservative Boomer parents saw how wrong they were about gay rights, they would be primed to see the “T” as a progressive and a human rights issue, as a rejection of all the bigotry, homophobia, and gender role boxes they were exposed to as children, when in fact the “T” is the exact opposite.

Very much this. When I look back at childhood pics in the 1970s, there are so many more gender neutral clothes. "Fast fashion" wasn't a thing, clothing was more expensive generally, and there were far more hand-me-downs (including between siblings of different genders) and of course hand-made clothes.

Baby gear was also more neutral. You wouldn't throw out your previous stuff - high chair, baby bath, pushchair - because it was the "wrong colour" for your next child's gender. Whereas I saw this all all over baby forums when I was pregnant. Perfectly serviceable stuff being thrown out because god forbid they turn their son gay with a rose-hued chair.

Now it's pink or blue. Before I had my kid, my friends knew I wasn't into the "pink thing" so I had baby clothes gifted in a range of colours. After she was born, every. single. item. and every. single. gift. was pink. I still used them and thanked people, but it was staggering how essentially nothing was even a neutral colour.

Lamaze infant toys: I recall there was a "toolbox" with a cloth saw, hammer and beaver, and a "purse" with a cloth lipstick, powder compact and poodle. (I got my kid the toolbox).

It starts pre-birth. No wonder young girl children and teens and young women grow up today feeling confused and wrong if they don't fit into the pink box built for them from conception.

[–] Hermione 15 points Edited

I think it was the sex positivity movement that got women back into being submissive and doubting themselves when going against men’s wishes. That primed us for wanting to avoid looking like stuffy old prudes.

We also were brought up to not only be more tolerant of people different to us, but also caring and wanting to seek justice for them, which is a good thing mostly, but too much emphasis was put on not questioning others at all, not leaving room for boundaries.

Then came the TIMs suctioning onto gay rights, a cause most of us supported, no one wanted to cause a vulnerable population pain, and most people, at first, thought TIMs were just really feminine gay men who were hurting.

We kind of WERE bottle fed this, with highly sympathetic movies like “The Crying Game”, where the TIM was small, delicate and heart breakingly sweet, “To Wong-Foo” with a group of men that were flamboyant, but kind and willing to protect women from misogynistic violent men, and the light hearted “The Bird Cage”, which again, harmless gay men that were loving and safe.

Even in “Silence of the Lambs” Agent Starling notes that the killer Buffalo Bill does not fit the characteristics of transsexuals who are “very passive” - and Dr.Lector confirms she is correct, and that the killer was not really trans, and would have been rejected as being such by one or all the major hospitals that performed “sex change” surgeries.

The Disney Princess industry was still fixated on romance and a Prince Charming at the end well into the 90’s, perhaps even 2000’s. So our ultimate goal was still male approval, for all our amazing efforts and “can do” attitudes that made us so “strong”. The princesses did great things to get that man!

We have been primed for this.

We also were brought up to not only be more tolerant of people different to us, but also caring and wanting to seek justice for them, which is a good thing mostly, but too much emphasis was put on not questioning others at all, not leaving room for boundaries.

This is an especially big problem among women on the left. Women on the left are trained to be Activism Nannies for everyone except themselves. They're trained to believe that feminism needs to be ""inclusive"" and take a back seat to every other special interest issue (even if it directly conflicts with the goal of female unity and liberation). And if a feminist pushes back on this, she's a selfish TERF, SWERF, Karen, racist, etc.

This goes along with the socialization to be kind and nurturing. So liberal women are told that, in order to be a Good Progressive, they need to let TIMs hide behind their skirts and have full access to all female spaces. And that any woman who says "no" to this is a heartless b!tch who wants trans people to die.

And modern women have to deal with the added threat of cancel culture if they don't comply. So its not just a risk of losing friends if you reject genderwoo. You can risk losing your job, having your reputation permanently slandered online, being booted from school, being blacklisted from future employment, being deluged with threats of rape/violence/doxing/etc....

"Activism nannies"--great term!

"Activism nannies"--great term!

Feel free to take it! I think it perfectly encapsulates the problem with modern liberal feminism.

Yes. Special mention also to several decades of Hayley from Corrie, played by a woman of course.

For those who aren't British and don't get this reference Coronation Street is a soap opera. When the trans character was introduced in the 90s it was one of the most watched TV shows in the country with episodes 3 x per week. It sold millions of viewers an absolute bullshit fantasy of a misunderstood, lovely lady who was indistinguishable from any other lady just trying to live a nice lady life.

For us in the U.S., it's Sophia in 'Orange is the New Black' (played by TIM Laverne Cox). That character has done more to make people dismissive of the issues with TIMs in women's prisons than any amount of activism could have done.

Apparently in September it was announced the Hayley character would be returning to the show? But the character went through a long story arc and died years ago right? Be interesting to see how science saves changes not only sex but being long dead.

Will it be a new actor I wonder? It would be very bigoted to have a female playing Hayley these days.

Maybe Eddie will be a (heeled) shoe-in for the role when he isn't elected as a Labour candidate?

[–] OwnLyingEyes 22 points Edited

We were raised taking the things women had fought hard to achieve within recent memory for granted, often assured men and women 'are equal now' while being increasingly sold a version of 'feminism' that demanded we subjugate ourselves to men's desires under the guise of 'empowerment.' Sold the idea that men are our allies, on our side, mean well, 'just need to be educated,' can be trusted. Hook up culture flourished, even though many of us were quietly uneasy and unhappy about it. 'Positivity culture' crept in, often demanding a happy, optimistic spin on things that we didn't feel. Taking birth control and abortion rights for granted, allowing us to mentally minimize how much the reproductive capabilities of our female bodies impact our lives.

Many of us were raised in schools that had an increased emphasis on artificially bolstering self esteem, sometimes to the point of fiction (the infamous participation trophies), and schools were increasingly expected to tailor expectations to individual students (IEPs). Perhaps well intentioned no child left behind measures held many of us back, and we increasingly weren't expected to engage thoughtfully with challenging material but rather to parrot back the correct answers, 'teaching to the test.' Many of us also had our outside activities monitored and arranged by our parents, with less 'free range' childhood exploration without constant supervision and less developing independence (and as a result, many of us to this day seem to still be at a bit of a loss when someone isn't telling us what to do, and are vulnerable to movements that fill that role). Anti bullying measures at times overreached into interfering with the normal, painful social skills you partially develop through the normal conflicts with others that can teach you who doesn't like you and why. Much educational material covering movements like the Civil Rights Movement presented it so positively it flattened the nuances and erased the true struggle and conflict of it (and that there absolutely was conflict within the movements themselves on what direction to take and what the primary aims should be), rendering them simplistic 'good guys versus bad guys, good guys win' fables instead of an accurate snapshot of what true movements for positive change look like.

While the internet wasn't a huge part of many of our childhoods, social media still hit during our teen and young adult years, and became an important part of our fledgling social lives with our peers.

Then the recession hit, and most of us were looking at a decreased quality of life from the one we'd been raised in (especially for those of us who'd been raised comfortably middle class), and many of us were additionally stunted in life skills from how we were raised and struggled to adapt. A lot ended up living back with our parents in varying degrees of prolonged adolescence. At a loss and in a bit of an identity crisis, in diminished circumstances but without the street smarts that often come from living a truly hard life. Many of us in debt for expensive degrees that failed to materialize jobs, "over educated" (or at least over credentialed) and under employed and dissatisfied, feeling out of place and stuck, a bit sheltered with a streak of idealism that hasn't been tempered by real world experience; these things are a perfect recipe for being vulnerable to indoctrination into fanatical movements (and while this by no means describes all Millennial women, it describes enough of us to create some social pressure applied to even those of us who should know better, because these are our peers).

These are my thoughts on it, anyway.

Edited to add: Also, think one small factor is the explosion in tech that happened right at an age where we were best able to become proficient in it didn't help. Saw a somewhat condescending attitude seep in towards older generations of women, as though the experiences of our mothers and grandmothers had become obsolete, as though they had become obsolete, because they were reluctant to get a cell phone, struggled to use the internet (and were wary of it), needed help getting devices set up (obviously not all, but many did). It allowed us to conceptualize them as being from an outdated era offering outdated advice, and brush away their hard-learned experiences when they tried to caution us about how men are.

Really good comment. This generation's parents were so terrified of their children hating them or considering them old and irrelevant that they gave their kids no room to find their own way. I think the loss of that key component of adolescence may be why so many millennials and Gen Zers are so susceptible to gender ideology. It feels very much like finding one's own way, but is in fact a clean, carefully-constructed and diligently policed path.

As a Gen-Xer and former punk, I used to feel offended by the appropriation of blue hair and punk styles by people who would never have been able to stand up to the real stigma these fashions carried with them back in the '70s and '80s. You didn't dye your hair blue unless you were prepared for the possibility someone might beat you up behind a car. It always flabbergasts me when Millennials or Gen Z feel like they are doing something even mildly daring by dying their hair purple or blue.

Unthinking compliance being rebranded as being a brilliant revolutionary, and a watered down, tamed counterculture with a poor imitation of the aesthetics and none of the substance became the mainstream.

Re your last paragraph -That really rings true to me. I'm almost 70 and got my first computer in 2000. I found a feminist blog shortly thereafter where there was a real divide between older and younger women. The younger women thought their lives were a lot more fun and that they were much different from us due to their having all sorts of electronic devices we didn't have when we were their age.

[–] OwnLyingEyes 17 points Edited

And all the while, shifting feminist discourse to online platforms meant we were moving it to a place where men could monitor what we were saying, infiltrate, and derail the conversations.

The truest 'this is the way the world really works' conversations I've ever had with other women were always out of earshot of men. Older women who could smile and play the part around a man and then pull me aside and caution me that he wasn't someone to ever be caught alone with, from women who knew these were things they couldn't say in front of other men, even the "good ones," without them undermining her, scoffing, getting defensive, or closing ranks and backing the predator because they themselves 'never had a problem with him.'

Just an anecdotal side note, my most rabid Millennial TRA relatives are also the ones who are the most gleeful at being condescending and making fun of our older relatives when it comes to them not knowing how some device works. Meanwhile I'm over here looking at those older relatives who have accomplished very impressive things swimming against the current in their lives versus their smug children who have fallen upwards due to their parents' success...and yet still struggle with a number of things in daily life due to being both naïve and arrogant as to how the world genuinely works.

This is such an insightful comment I wish I could upvote more than once.

[–] BlackCirce 🔮🐖🐖🐖 33 points

I think about this a lot since I’ve always been a feminist and I’m of that age and I keep coming back to how I related more to the very genital-forward feminism and art. It wasn’t even a theory thing, it was an aesthetic-spiritual thing. I so very desperately wanted to be like the other girls and be a part of that great tapestry of interesting and important women, the ultimate school/clique/gang/tribe/club. I always loved being female, in a specifically physical, sexual way. Not in an abstract “women are humans just like men and sex doesn’t matter” way. The “everyone enters the world from the yoni portal” way. I feel like really owning the physical reality of being female, the joys and the pains, has a protective effect

Like all generations, millennial women were bottle fed not being 'prejudiced' or 'bigoted' against men and to llsten to men, who are 'very important human beings.' So the men just took advantage of the liberality towards their sex, as they usually do, to promote a new misogynistic atrocity of an ideology.

Yeah I disagree we weren't fed this rhetoric. Not to mention the T solidly hitched their wagon to the LGB. I think all of us growing up in the wake of the AIDS epidemic especially felt extremely strongly that stigmas and laws against homosexuality needed to change. And when you are being told that trans rights are the same thing as gay rights you take it at face value-- it seems like a similar personal issue on its face, and when suddenly every gay rights campaign is an LGBT campaign who am I to say any different?

Now 25 years later, when male "lesbians" outnumber female, it's easy to see in hindsight where the turn went wrong but at the time it was extremely difficult to be supportive of gay rights without including transgender individuals. Fuck, it still is.

'when male "lesbians" outnumber female' Jesus, what a depressing truth.

We were raised by boomer parents who were raised in the 50s/60s, and learned that men's moods and feelings take priority over everything. Because they are allowed to make you suffer if you don't. "Keep sweet" wasn't a message just for FLDS women, it's an ethos baked into our existence, the metric by which we were taught to judge ourselves and (crucially) other women.

Yep. I was raised with a father, a stepfather, and two brothers all with varying levels of bad tempers. I was a loud mouth but eventually I learned to watch what I said and not upset the men

I was raised with strict gender roles and in retrospect I hated them but I acted like I didn't hate them. It's weird to explain. I spent until I was like 27 thinking I had to marry my first boyfriend, not be on birth control,do all the housework and cooking while working full time, put up with my mediocre boyfriend who was bad in bed, inconsiderate, and a selfish know it all. I thought it was what I was supposed to do.

I also put up with my asshole brother's abuse and was a casual misogynist myself. The only "feminist" idea I had was that I really disliked self hating women. I didn't subscribe to the whole, "women are catty/I don't get along with other girls/all my friends are guys" bullshit. Other than that, I was a pickme through and through

I look back on my old self and want to wretch

We were raised by boomer parents who were raised in the 50s/60s, and learned that men's moods and feelings take priority over everything. Because they are allowed to make you suffer if you don't.


Imo, just personal anecdote, I had always heard the T added to LGBT but the T was so, so, so rare. In my mind I never doubted there was a mental component to it, a body is a body the thoughts cannot be mis matched but I saw it as akin to those people who have a brain lesion that makes them think their hand is someone elses, or a severed corpus collosum where one half of the body really does react on its own (the brain is crazy!) So I believed there was a lesion or some defect in the brain that genuinely made them very uncomfortable and convinced they were in the wrong body, and if it isnt gurting anyone and it helps them not be in discomfort why not just be kind and understand they have a unique struggled. Never saw or met a TiP irl for years and years.

Then 2016 happened (I had just started college so my age may come into my anecdote) and the 'woke' I feel started happening a little in response to the stuff Trump was saying. And the stuff that some people were now also comfortable saying, so bigotry seemed a little more acceptable. There was a pushback from those that were becoming the 'woke' because those immigrants arent rapists they are mothers and fathers trying to escape a bad situation, and women arent 'nasty' when they speak up-they are constant victims of misogyny in language, etc etc. BLM started up around that time, at least in my own awareness and memory.

From there, the pushback grew between the two sides (reps and dems if you wanna generalize) especially on social media. And things FLY on social media. People got comfortable saying more and more things much quicker. Its how 'I think Terfs are misguided' became 'it's okay to rape and murder Terfs because they arent people' SO FAST. The 'Othering' of people became very, very, very easy behind the screen.

FB friends from the MAGA crowd would post heinous things I would never expect to hear IRL ex. 'BUILD THE WALL KEEP THE RAPIST DRUG DEALERS OUT' and then the 'woke' would post more in retaliation ex. 'If you vote Rep then you are dead to me and your life doesnt matter because you are racist'....And the insults and division grew and grew because seeing a snippet of shit from someone makes it easy to dismiss them as a whole piece of shit.

Fast forward to covid and the anger from mask up and stay home vs muh freedumbs crowds escalated too, Trump stuff rubbing the 'woke' raw, turmoil, social media becoming more and more taylored and bubbled so each bubble's beliefs just got deeper without challenge, and when someone a part if that bubble sees something totally different than what they know they label the other person as derranged and a sheep.

While all this is happening non hetero visibility skyrockets. In the name of acceptabce and fighting predjudice via race and orientation, I think the moralistic crowd (handmaidens etc) did everything to be accepting of all and reject racism, homophobia, sexism etc. And the T started multiplying from the visibility and sheer mental exhaustion and uncertainty of the state of the world amplified by algorithms on the internet that keep showing you what it thinks you want to see. The T slowly (well, pretty quick actually) became a larger and larger group (and of course I personally was advocating respect for all even if you do not agree) that the 'Ts are so so rare and genuinely have an issue so lets just be kind' mentality never really left, but the porn addiction in those men which is completely unfathomable to most women was entirely overlooked- the lonliness of Covid lockdowns trapped people in these algorithms and the porn sick ones got sicker and the moralistic angry ones 'saw' more and more oppression of minorities etc etc etc

Sorry for all that lol but I just cannot believe how things have evolved. Society is evolving memes and ideas so rapidly via the internet- but the evolution is so lopsided most people cannot keep up. Which is why the 'trans people should be treated fairly, and they are so rare, and so unlikely to harm others they just want to pee besides you will probably never even meet one in the real world' mentality is still so prevalant to those that live in the real world and offline...it sounds GREAT to advocate for equality. The evolution of trans idealogy is just not known well enough outside of the internet subcultures etc that the sickness and perversion of it is still largely invisible. But the time is coming. The more visible it becomes, the more outrage it will produce and the blinders will fall off soon.

As a person whose only social media is Ovarit (does that even count?) I found your view fascinating. Not that it's all new to me, but you give such a vivid and gripping picture, it's like a short immersive movie of what just happened to us collectively here in the USA.

I am so glad I at least made a little sense, hahaha. Didnt mean to write a novel.

This is so on point. I graduated in 2012, but as I was coming into my own as a bisexual in the mid-00s/early-10s, it was lesbians, gays, and bisexuals -- and those very rare T's. That's how I perceived it, anyway, and I didn't know a single trans person until 2015. And I think you're exactly right about the "rare and harmless" mindset still being so prevalent; your average trans ally just thinks trans people were always there but never able to come out until now, because that's what they're told along with "never question our truths."

That was a good article but I feel like she really missed a huge part of the issue. As a bisexual millennial woman, by the time I came of age, the lesbian community was completely gone. GSA groups were all overrun with TIMs. Internet communities for lesbian and bisexual women were overrun with TIMs and men posing as women. I got groomed by a 40-year-old TIM when I was 17. I met him on a yuri forum. This is why I started thinking I was trans.

When I was a teenager, the world was still homophobic. Same-sex marriage wasn't even legal. And yet already there was zero support for lesbian and bisexual women, because it had all been eaten up by trans issues. When I was in college, I literally went to a conference that was originally celebrating female academic performance. The entire conference was spent discussing trans students and trans issues.

The message was loud and clear. "We don't care about gay people anymore, and especially not lesbian and bisexual women. Trans people are more important than you."

Based on the women I know in real life:

The same old people pleasing mentality, thinking they should be inclusive if they can without thinking about the consequences of what they’re doing.

Peer pressure. If all your bougie professional friends think something you think it too.

Blindness to how women are still not equal in society. Women my age grew up (including me) thinking that women have achieved parity with men and feminism was a historical movement.

Trying to be the cool girl and having internalized misogyny. They would rather attack other women than stand up for themselves.

Waking up and becoming a rad fem and being angry at the patriarchy 24/7 is a painful thing to do and a lot of people aren’t ready for it.

[–] T3RRFIC 4 points Edited

We grew up believing equality had been achieved & feminism wasn't needed, or relevant.

We didn't fight the good fight to achieve equality, so didn't cherish what we had - it was earned off the backs of the women who fought in previous generations

You don't know what you've got till it's gone, sadly

I was a kid in the 80's. There was a brief set of glory years in the 70s when girls were encouraged to ignore gender roles. 80's teens could be gender-bending, but what about elementary school aged kids?

Well, this was a great age of highly gendered toy marketing. He-Man, ffs. With the exception of my beloved Thundercats, separation btw the sexes was strongly marked. We girls were given She-Ra, who granted was at least a super hero, but one in heels and a corset, dammit. My Little Ponies, Care Bears, Strawberry Shortcake, Moon Dreamers, Rainbow Brite, Jem, Rose Petal Palace, and of course, BARBIE.

Parents loved the hyper femininity of the toys. Boys had GI Joe, Transformers, He-Man, etc, and parents loved that, too. I think it was parents' subtle quest to try to return to rigid gender roles for their children without saying explicitly that's what they were doing.

It made shopping for birthdays and holidays easier, too. Kids like whatever is marketed to them, so parents took that as "see? Gender is natural!!!" It was so successful that it's still used today.

Ngl, I loved my 80's toys. But what I actively wanted most of all was Skeletor and my dad, who usually is not an asshole, wouldn't let me have it. My mom was mad about it because what was the big fucking deal?

We WERE spoon-fed gender roles. "You can be anything you want to be, honey. Yeah. Of course. Overmydeadbody."

There was also paranoia about gay people. Very open homophobia. Millennial women would have grown up hearing conservatives rant about same-sex marriage.

I'm not sure I agree with the premise of the article.

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