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I have this friend who is fully aware of my views. He doesn’t really care either way, which is infuriating tbh because I get so upset about everything. I don’t understand how anyone can look at what is happening; males in females prisons, males in females sports, males erasing the meaning of words that, by definition, exclude male people, and not see the injustice and abject misogyny of it all.

He said to me yesterday that the world is changing, that people will see the things I say as more and more bigoted with each passing day.

Obviously I disagreed, saying males and females are biologically distinct is NOT bigoted. Women’s rights are not bigoted. What is bigoted is preventing females from having the language to describe themselves and the female experience. What is bigoted is pretending that womanhood is just a feeling or fancy any man can adopt. Pretending males and females are identical is plain idiocy, easily disproven by even basic sight and science, and will always disadvantage women.

I told him that human beings cannot change sex, that is an indisputable fact and pretending otherwise is moronic and I won’t do it. I will never pretend that my body, that my mother’s body, is anatomically identical to a male body. It’s preposterous and offensive as hell.

I told him that the tide is turning and people will not accept polite (but harmful) fiction over the truth. That the majority agree with me and that one day we will look back on this time with disbelief and horror at the atrocities and outright LIES foisted upon us.

I guess I’m just feeling frustrated and upset. I think I need some encouragement from likeminded women...the unfairness and misogyny of it all is a little soul destroying. The tide will turn, right?

Gender ideology is just a bunch of empty mantras, lies and deceit. Something built on fear, bullying and denial of material reality won’t triumph, will it?

He did contradict himself during this conversation by saying most of the world agreed with me, that it’s all a load of white western bullshit. It’s very possible he totally agrees with me and is just winding me up/playing the contrarian for fun 🙄

Anyway, I just feel zapped of energy, tired and helpless. I’m not daft for seeing a shift, am I? I’m in the UK and feel like things have been improving.

Please tell me the pendulum will swing back and all this anti science bollocks will be wiped out?

I have this friend who is fully aware of my views. He doesn’t really care either way, which is infuriating tbh because I get so upset about everything. I don’t understand how anyone can look at what is happening; males in females prisons, males in females sports, males erasing the meaning of words that, by definition, exclude male people, and not see the injustice and abject misogyny of it all. He said to me yesterday that the world is changing, that people will see the things I say as more and more bigoted with each passing day. Obviously I disagreed, saying males and females are biologically distinct is NOT bigoted. Women’s rights are not bigoted. What is bigoted is preventing females from having the language to describe themselves and the female experience. What is bigoted is pretending that womanhood is just a feeling or fancy any man can adopt. Pretending males and females are identical is plain idiocy, easily disproven by even basic sight and science, and will always disadvantage women. I told him that human beings cannot change sex, that is an indisputable fact and pretending otherwise is moronic and I won’t do it. I will never pretend that my body, that my mother’s body, is anatomically identical to a male body. It’s preposterous and offensive as hell. I told him that the tide is turning and people will not accept polite (but harmful) fiction over the truth. That the majority agree with me and that one day we will look back on this time with disbelief and horror at the atrocities and outright LIES foisted upon us. I guess I’m just feeling frustrated and upset. I think I need some encouragement from likeminded women...the unfairness and misogyny of it all is a little soul destroying. The tide will turn, right? Gender ideology is just a bunch of empty mantras, lies and deceit. Something built on fear, bullying and denial of material reality won’t triumph, will it? He did contradict himself during this conversation by saying most of the world agreed with me, that it’s all a load of white western bullshit. It’s very possible he totally agrees with me and is just winding me up/playing the contrarian for fun 🙄 Anyway, I just feel zapped of energy, tired and helpless. I’m not daft for seeing a shift, am I? I’m in the UK and feel like things have been improving. Please tell me the pendulum will swing back and all this anti science bollocks will be wiped out?

63 comments

[–] ProMoleratWaxer #1 Worst Poster 36 points Edited

This guy is not your friend.

[–] drinkwater 6 points Edited

As soon as I read he was a man I knew. Please, drop male friends the minute they act up. It's really not worth it, putting energy into men who don't even give a crap is a waste of your time. He said his piece and in his mind women don't matter, listen and believe. Op, he told you who he was. It's up to you what you do with that information.

I know you’re right. Time and time again I’ll give people the benefit of the doubt and time and time again it bites me in the arse...I guess you have to live and learn, I just haven’t learnt yet :/

Female socialisation is extremely weakening, and I am, by nature, a people pleaser - I’m frustrated with myself for not being more firm/assertive.

It's hard with personal relationships, but when it comes to men I honestly just blocked and ghosted. Now there's none of them in my life and I'm better for it. It's not worth explaining anything to them, could just trigger an unhinged episode in them or something. And it saves you stress and confrontation.

Drop him as a friend. Cut him off completely. If anyone asks why, say, "He brought no value to my life."

He said to me yesterday that the world is changing, that people will see the things I say as more and more bigoted with each passing day.

So what?

The world was changing after 1933, too, people grew more antisemitic with each passing day ...

I am not one for farfetched nazi comparisons, but here it is fitting: Just because a lot of people believe something is right, that does not mean it is, or that one should go along with it. The people we admire today are those who did NOT go along with what the nazis wanted.

The tide surely seems to be turning. I cannot promise that it will have fully turned anytime soon, but it is observable that the more people know about gender ideology, the more they are against it.

It’s very possible he totally agrees with me and is just winding me up/playing the contrarian for fun

I have a male relative who is like that. These days I usually drop the topic if I notice he is doing it, and tell him that he knows it annoys me and I'm not going to participate.

Threatening to cut contact might help him realize that womens' rights are not a joke to you, and that he could lose your friendship if he is too convincing with his devil's advocate bullshit.

I feel you so much!! I tried to have a Convo with a female friend about my GC views and she was like "oh i understand it's difficult to leave conservative paradigms behind" wtf? I am not conservative!! And fully support LGB just not the QWERTY being!!

I feel like it's really important for us to reframe the conversation and remind them that it's a very conservative view to believe that gender is innate. Most people are blindly supporting it just because they want to be liberal and they're told that this is what liberals believe. This whole thing will fall apart instantly if we can get across that RadFems are on their left.

Ikr! I tried with my libfem friends...they’re all brainwashed, one acquaintance was like “but that’s transphobic and homophobic” and I just looked at her and said “transgender ideology IS homophobic, as a woman who has sex with women, I am not”

This same acquaintance didn’t believe there were males in female prisons until I told her (and showed her) so. She also didn’t know only 5% of TIMs castrate themselves. It’s all just stupid virtue signalling from sheep brained people who don’t mind being told what to think :/

I love my friends, but damn, I have lost a hell of a lot of respect for them over this. They’d rather not rock the boat than actually think critically about anything and reach their own conclusions.

The tide is turning. We're seeing this in the UK as more and more people are waking up to the horror of what is being done to children and what women are being subjected to.

I thought so! The more sunlight the issue gets, the more people see what is happening. Nobody really believes a man can become a woman or vice versa.

The trans movement is largely a shrieking minority of white, middle class uni students who feel guilty for being middle class and white and thus feel the need to support “the most marginalised” whilst being too stupid to see the glaring misogyny, homophobia and anti science that is screwing over the truly marginalised (female inmates, rape and DV victims, vulnerable children, women, homosexuals etc) Gender ideology is bigotry of every flavour imo: obviously misogynistic and homophobic, frequently racist, regularly ableist, very much ageist. It’s just a bag of shit.

You're obviously correct. Everyone will eventually view this like phrenology and lobotomies. The question is just the timeframe.

This is so ludicrous and harmful that I think the timeframe will be relatively short. Everyone's patience is wearing out. More detransitioners are starting to sue. (You can rage donate to WoLF if you want to help those lawsuits along.)

In terms of the bigotry et al... assuming you are a RadFem, we are on the right side of history. It really sucks to live in a world where we aren't appreciated now but no one on the right side of history ever was (reason #2348762 that we know the highly popular TRA movement is a fraud).

we are on the right side of history.

There is no "right side of history". History is written by the winners. Religions with illogical claims last for ages.. traditions and authorities based on nothing can remain in power for centuries simply because no one questions them. Wrong-thinking ideologies can dominate if enough people are willing to go along - if it helps a few and the majority doesn't think it's hurting them.

There's no guarantee. There's only speaking up and sharing stories. It seems especially important for young liberal people to point out that basic TRA notions go against being homosexual, GNC or body-positive in general, and that the whole movement is rigidifying old fashioned stereotypes & creating capitalistic solutions to what could be complicated psychological or personal issues (which may have been themselves created by self-perpetuating culture, but anyway).

But I don't think it's safe to say, it's a bad idea so it will die off. Pollution & the necessarily limited nature of energy resources have been evident issues since the beginning of the industrial revolution and we're still not dealing with those.

Keep having conversations.

I am a Radfem. I know I’m not a bigot, but he said people will see me as one...wtf? For knowing I’m different to a male? For knowing humans cannot change sex? For refusing to lie to placate men?

I keep telling myself that it’s all so ridiculous it will crumble in the next few years. Unfortunately it seems to be mostly young people who buy into it - I’m 26, my friends are mostly 24-28. Aside from my brother (24) and one friend (26) the others are all entrenched in this BS.

I’m fortunate both parents and my stepmum think it’s a load of crap, my step siblings (early 30s) think it’s a load of crap. my mum’s friends (late 50s) think it’s a heap of crap. And it is.

I’m so angry at this “friend” rn to be honest. The more I think about it the angrier I get. How dare he? A castrated man is not a woman. A man taking synthetic oestrogen is not a woman. No male can ever be a woman.

It will crumble in the next few years. It already is.

Hopefully your friend will apologize when it does. Maybe he will even give your opinions more weight after that.

Does he seem like a well-meaning sheeple or a misogynist looking for an excuse?

He is not well meaning I don’t think. He doesn’t buy into “be kind” he just... really doesn’t care

Says he’s an individualist; could just be a selfish, nihilistic arsehole with little care for anything or anyone, or could be a misogynist revelling in the destruction of women’s rights 🤷🏻‍♀️ I might just ask him.

More than anything he is a wind up merchant and a contrarian, enjoys playing devils advocate and playing mind games. Tbh, he is stimulating company and an interesting person but I’m certainly not convinced he is a good person.

[–] OwnLyingEyes 8 points Edited

The thing I tend to find some hope in is how even the most "be kind" TWAW-chanters I know genuinely don't know what's going on. They respond to evidence with denial, not acceptance. And a hell of a lot more people have misgivings about the things they've seen that they didn't seem to have recently, even though many are very hesitant to express them. A lot of us often say that TRAs/TIPs are their own worst enemies, the whole 'sunlight is the best disinfectant' thing, but I think there's another way they're their own worst enemies: how aggressively authoritarian the entire movement has been from the getgo (along with the broader Twitter-woke cancel culture zeitgeist that looks to severely punish people for even tiny infractions if they can muster enough of a mob to do it). True acceptance doesn't come from forcing people into compliance and terrorizing them. People will never be comfortable around them because they demand people walk on eggshells to keep them from tantruming. Because they're bullies, and they only get more and more bold about showing that true face the more society allows them to get away with it (ie huge fake boobs shop teacher).

I think there's a ton of momentum building for a backlash, and when the dam truly breaks on this it will be dramatic. You're not alone in seeing a shift; I see more people willing to speak out than there used to be, and more people willing to (quietly) voice their misgivings if they feel reasonably safe to do so (for an example, in my wokey city area, went to a dinner thing with a group of people I didn't know, my Nigel's friend's birthday, and seated kind of in the middle there were two women nearby, an NB and a handmaiden, talking about being outraged by a recent pronoun-related experience...while the cluster of friends on the other end of the table quietly mocked pronoun-shit. Neither group could hear the other, and I hadn't instigated any of it. Have it on Nigel's authority that even the dude dating the NB is over it, as much as he tries to remember to call her 'they' he still forgets and refers to her as 'her' a lot when talking to him. Yes that's just one friend group, but it's also the friend group that includes an NB that everyone tries not to "misgender" while pretty clearly no one actually buys it). I do worry about what that backlash will look like, and what else will be swept away, since as I've said, I think for many of the ordinary people holding their tongues out of fear of being overheard by the wrong people saying wrongthink lump this under 'woke' along with a lot of other issues.

I’m pretty sure a lot more people are getting fed up than are willing to admit it. I also have a friend group with NBs in it and once in a while I try to gauge just how much individual people actually agree with the rhetoric.

When I talk to certain people alone about it, they all of a sudden act as if someone is spying on us. Or as if they’re worried I’m a spy. I always start slow, but once I question one small thing, the person I’m talking to seems to looks scared but then softly admits that they agree that a certain thing is strange. They then immediately start making it clear that no matter how strange things seem, they still respect everyone’s identity.

I recently got one to admit that he thought the whole thing was completely insane. He at first looked startled and said that he respects people’s rights when I first said I thought the pronoun stuff was kinda dumb, but he then admitted that he felt scared discussing his true feelings on it.

Since then we’ve talked about the major issues like males in women’s prisons, in women’s sports, and he thinks it’s all as insane and messed up as I do. He even said that he feels sure that most people don’t agree with this gender stuff but are too scared to say anything so they’re not branded as bigots, just as he was.

It feels so dystopian to have to whisper with scared friends about the fact that males are men and women are female. I’ve also been scared but am getting fed up with it, which is why I’m trying to see if others might feel the same. But I still walk on eggshells when I bring it up, in case the person turns out to be a rabid TRA that will try to convince everyone to drop me cause of my “bigotry.”

I feel like people have to get tired of living this way at some point. So many are simply pretending to believe in this ideology that makes no sense to them just so they aren’t shunned. And that includes many friends of NBs. I feel like it has to hit everyone how uncomfortable it is to have our thoughts and words be policed by people in strong denial of reality. It’s getting creepier as time goes on.

Thankyou 💚 really did need to read this today, I felt very demoralised and like I’d been seeing a shift where there was none.

I can’t wait for all this to be over. I said to my friend (after what he said about the world changing) “mark my words, give it 5 years or give it 50, people will look back on this anti-science nonsense with utter disbelief that humans could be so stupid. It is a movement built on lies, lies won’t hold up for ever”

He's got it entirely backwards when he says that "the world is changing" to view feminism as bigotry...in actuality, this view is the oldest and most bog-standard around.

Men have been refusing to recognize the humanity of women since forever. Men have been insisting that women are merely consumables since forever. Men have been claiming the right to define and control women since forever. Men have been insisting that there is an innate "woman-nature" defined by submission and frivolity since forever.

Nothing about trans ideology is actually new. The reason it's so popular right now is because it's what most people have been raised from birth to believe: that our (disgusting, oppressive, artificial) cultural construct of gender is actually an immutable law and therefore women need to shut up and quit challenging it.

I said to him yesterday something along the lines of “in a world where in 2022 we get the first crash test dummy with female anatomy, how dare a man claim our reality as his costume, nobody can identify into or out of material reality, the women in Iran can’t just claim manhood, it is profoundly misogynistic for a man to claim womanhood”

It’s just typical male entitlement, hubris and stupidity. Friend said something about TIMs taking oestrogen 😐 I told him a male taking synthetic oestrogen is not a woman, I said “I am not a hormone level, I am a female human, physiologically distinct from male humans in every way” I said that scientists can tell someone’s sex from a bone, a cell, a freaking fingerprint...a castrated bull is not a cow.

are you sure your friend isn't just a narc whom gets amused by getting you flustered, not really a friend is it.

Why be friends with somebody who doesn't see you as a human being?

Very true. I think it may just be that, as a man, he has never much had to think about how different the world is for males and females? But then again, he clearly doesn’t listen. Maybe I’m just a source of entertainment for him.

I don’t feel like being friends with someone who defends the indefensible tbh.

It just sounds like the way a cat plays with a mouse for it's amusement.

You may well be right. The thought did occur to me whilst I was getting increasingly upset yesterday.

There is no way an intelligent, logical man can look at gender ideology and not see it for what it is....unless he does see it for what it is and his judgement is coloured by misogynistic delight in women’s suffering.

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