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I met and spoke with a HSTS who is new to my workplace. He has a male fiance, and at a distance, I probably wouldn't be able to tell he's a TIM (although his face and hand size give it away from close up). He uses the disabled toilets at work, and taking a risk, I asked him about it, since the workplace's policy is sadly to let them use whatever room they want. He said he wanted to avoid making women uncomfortable, so didn't use our restroom. This intrigued me, so I got talking with him, tried to probe his views on other issues. He's against trans women participating in sports, and against transing kids. Said his own parents made him wait until he was 18 and he was grateful for it. He did say he believes TIMs should have the right to enter female spaces if they've had surgery, but not before then, and said he personally would never enter them.

It just makes me wonder, if he can be reasonable on all this, why can't he just accept that he's a gay man? He clearly on some level knows he isn't a woman, or he'd have no issues using our spaces.

I met and spoke with a HSTS who is new to my workplace. He has a male fiance, and at a distance, I probably wouldn't be able to tell he's a TIM (although his face and hand size give it away from close up). He uses the disabled toilets at work, and taking a risk, I asked him about it, since the workplace's policy is sadly to let them use whatever room they want. He said he wanted to avoid making women uncomfortable, so didn't use our restroom. This intrigued me, so I got talking with him, tried to probe his views on other issues. He's against trans women participating in sports, and against transing kids. Said his own parents made him wait until he was 18 and he was grateful for it. He did say he believes TIMs should have the right to enter female spaces if they've had surgery, but not before then, and said he personally would never enter them. It just makes me wonder, if he can be reasonable on all this, why can't he just accept that he's a gay man? He clearly on some level knows he isn't a woman, or he'd have no issues using our spaces.

35 comments

I've talked with plenty of gender critical and/or transmedicalist HSTS transsexuals on the debate sub. I think the consensus is that they know they're not the sex they want to be. They recognize reality. It's just that medical transition is the only way that they've been able to find peace. It makes their lives easier. I can relate on some level as an extremely GNC person. But my level of social dysphoria is not bad enough to make transition necessary. I can live a fulfilling life as long as society allows me to exist as a GNC woman.

[–] friedparata 24 points Edited

yeah, i agree with you and I also don't blame them for not detransitioning once they figured out what a sham it is. sunk cost fallacy is real, and very strong when you've permanently altered your body like that.

I'm also worried about the long term effects of these surgeries and hormones on these people. TRAs don't care and don't want to admit that it's harmful.

Also a lot of them do get off on it.

[–] CheshireBat 🦇 20 points

Wow, OP. Almost sounds like you met my bestie (who I will refer to as 'R'). I'll tell you more about him here, as it seems pretty relevant, and it sounds like you had a good talk with your TIM that parallels some of the talks I've had with mine. Let me pull up my notes... R is very similar to the person you described, with a few differences. R is mostly stealth, I'm one of 4 or 5 people that know his background. But I didn't even know R was male for the first 2 years of our friendship. Now that I know, I can see one or two clocky features, but didn't think anything of it initially. He's a post-op HSTS that started transitioning in the late 90s and has been married to a man for about 11 years. R and myself are gym buddies. We shower and change together in the women's facilities. If y'all think less of me because of this, I will understand. But needless to say, R does not shy away from women's spaces. More on this later.

R peaked a couple years ago and has come to agree with Gender Critical viewpoints. When R guessed that I came around to GC viewpoints as well, it opened a floodgate of discussion which is why I'm able to relay all of this to you. To clarify, R would not claim to be GC, because in his words, "I'm a TIM that uses women's spaces, and anyway it wouldn't be my place to inject myself into this movement and try to speak for women that are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves. But I want the movement to win. My so-called community has become a shit show and is over run with creeps, criminals, and cry babies. Women deserve better than this." (The irony is not lost on me of a TIM that uses our spaces calling other TIMs creeps, although he does get points for having a way with alliteration). R does not believe that changing sex is possible, despite being "legally female" and despite having had surgery commonly known as sex reassignment, or a sex change operation. I asked him why he transitioned then, and he said that some sort of magical change in sex isn't the point, or what's even important to him. What's important to him is that when people see him they see someone that appears to be a woman, and that they treat him as one. He said the difference between him and TRAs, is that TRAs try to change society to suit themselves, whereas he changed himself to suit society. You see, he was raised in strict Evangelical Christianity in a rural area. To put it simply, his homosexuality was not tolerated. He even went through conversion therapy. In his words, "My brain solved an equation at a young age. I was told that only girls could love boys. Well I loved boys, so what did that make me? The only acceptable way to be with a man was to become his wife. It became all I could hope for." As such, he claims to be happy with how his transition went. Which brings me to the point of this wall of text:

It just makes me wonder, if he can be reasonable on all this, why can't he just accept that he's a gay man? He clearly on some level knows he isn't a woman, or he'd have no issues using our spaces.

Sometimes these things run very, very deep. I do believe that gender dysphoria is real, and sometimes it's brought on by sickos masturbating to sissy hypno porn. I don't feel much empathy for them. But R... yeah, I feel sorry for the guy, I admit it. I think it would be unrealistic to ask R to "just be a gay man". Having said that, I don't think any of the above excuses anything, or makes his violation of our space OK, and I've told him so (despite my participation in it). But sometimes these things are hard, and it sucks. And for me, being GC, while I'm close to a TIM doesn't make things easy either. I would describe my positions as... nuanced.

Back to bathrooms. I've asked him about if he feels guilty or would consider stopping using women's facilities. After receiving a mild glare, I was told that publicly identifying himself as male would be a fate worse than death at this point. He's happy with what he's achieved and grateful to the universe for allowing it. However, we all know what happened to the trans community in the last several years. R does too. Says he would fall on a sword if it meant the end of all this and women had the right to self determination with their spaces. Unfortunately, I'm afraid he's serious. He's fallen into a depression, and I think it has to do with the cognitive dissonance of these circumstances. Toxic masculinity didn't want him, so he satisfied the toxic. Now I don't want him either. Not many other places for him to go I guess. I feel like shit.

Thanks for reading, I felt like a lot of this context was important, so I dumped most of what I wrote down from our talks. When I see TIMs like the violent ones rioting at Let Women Speak events, I'm disgusted and I don't see much self awareness there, it all seems so simple. And sometimes it's complicated.

I think guys like your friend R are the reason many of us were okay with or even championed trans rights in the past. It wasn't until I was older and started meeting more and more AGP types that I realized oh, this polite legal fiction on behalf of extremely effeminate gay men has actually opened a Pandora's box that's going to be incredibly hard to close. I've known gay men who lost everything by coming out in the 90s and early 2000s because their families were incredibly religious. I think for a lot of HSTS who grew up in that same atmosphere, they legitimately cannot come to terms with their attraction to other men outside of the lens of "being" a woman or something that resembles a woman. I also think that's why we're seeing fewer and fewer HSTS types outside of the boys who are transitioned when they're very young (Jazz Jennings, Kim Petras, etc.), because if they're allowed to at least make it to college and get away from their conservative families, a lot of them are just fine being gay men given how much more accepting people are in our current time. Even the most conservative religious people in my family don't really care much about homosexuality, at least not for men. (They're much more concerned about making sure women have no reproductive rights, which makes family holidays a complicated affair when half of us are raging liberals.)

this polite legal fiction on behalf of extremely effeminate gay men has actually opened a Pandora's box that's going to be incredibly hard to close.

This is exactly it. As one user has pointed out before: Its too bad for R that TRAs never cared to advocate for him. In fact, no TRA has cared as much about R as I have. What does that say about our respective movements?

This was very interesting to read. Thanks for sharing it, and I appreciate your nuanced viewpoint.

To be fair, I do think there's some societal pressure to be a TIM instead of a feminine gay man. I've seen a few detrans or questioning men talk about how they felt like transitioning would let them dress up or put on makeup without judgement.

I'm soft on trans ideology compared to most people here, I guess. I think some people do benefit from transition in our current social climate - they've either internalized or face strict gendered expectations and might be more comfortable thinking of themselves as a gender-conforming member of the opposite sex instead. I'm sympathetic to people like that; they're victims of ideology too. But in an ideal world, those people shouldn't exist. Not because I hate them or because I want them to die, but simply because there would be no social impetus to transition. No one should feel like they have to become another gender to be themselves.

More like, the people would exist, but the things they are currently doing they would not be doing.

[–] no- 18 points

I feel sympathetic towards TIMs who are gay, down-to-earth, and don’t want to hurt anyone, but they have no right to claim the word woman, that’s where I draw the line. Do hormones, get implants, wear dresses, do whatever you want, but don’t call yourself a woman, or demand to be legally one. And I definitely won’t call any man a she/her.

More than 100 years ago, women started doing the exceedingly hard work of expanding what was socially acceptable for women to do and be.

Men need to put in the same hard work to expand the breadth of socially acceptable ways of being a man, instead of trying to colonise our sex, our spaces, our achievements and our struggles.

I have no problem with TIM like this. Edit: I missed the point about post-surgery. Disagree with him there, though. I used to think that too, however.

[–] Eava 12 points Edited

I'd be willing to accept that as a compromise to put an end to the Jonathan Yaniv's of the world getting into women's spaces given how few TIMs have genital surgery. It kept TIMs out if the Olympics for many years.

Yaniv had a neovagina installed in Jan 2021. He posted pictures of bloody gauze from the wound saying “that’s what us girls do.” And pictures of the infected result. He claimed that his “clit” had fallen off.

It is marginally better for him to be without dick and balls.

Oh yeah. He tried to get more wax for his new neovulva but ppl turned him down with all the weeping scar tissue. He quit asking and am sure prefers whatever bush exits over all that keloid tissue.

You know, they all know they're not women. It isn't the first time men have deliberately lied in order to bully us and sadly, it won't be the last. They ALL know. They don't actually believe it, it's just living out a fantasy and forcing us to go along.

Did you read the "immersive fiction" chapter of Kathleen Stock's "Material Girls"? It's fantastic and I think it explains what you're getting at really well.

https://www.amazon.com/Material-Girls-Reality-Matters-Feminism-ebook/dp/B08LK8TY5S

[–] GenderHeretic Assigned2LegsAB 8 points Edited

I suspect he does get it, but he doesn't want to go back and admit he's done so much to himself for nothing and start again dealing with the homophobia for being a GNG gay man that drove him to transition in the first place. But it's his only option if he intends to ever enter reality.

He did say he believes TIMs should have the right to enter female spaces if they've had surgery,

Yeah no lol. Like others here, I feel bad for transsexuals, but it's because our society is so homophobic. That's what needs changing, not women's boundaries. It's important to remember that that first erosion of women's boundaries, where sympathetic HSTS men were allowed to be categorised as women under any circumstances (even just socially), was the thin edge of the wedge to where we are presently. And I do mean "men" because we all know it would never have been allowed if only TIFs existed.

[–] DonnaFemina 4 points Edited

I don't think he's logically obligated to see himself as a gay man.

He sounds to me like one of those exceedingly rare people who sees trans people in what I think is the correct way (at least it's correct for medically transitioned trans people) -- as a third option, neither clearly male nor clearly female. If all trans people saw themselves that way, we wouldn't have any problems in women's sports, women's spaces, etc.

I think that's reasonable and logical because a person who's had their external genitals removed and replaced with a facsimile of the opposite sex's genitals is not really the same as a dude with a dick and balls who calls himself a woman. He's also not the same as a woman, obviously. I think there's room for a third/fourth gender role or gender-related name for people, even though obviously such people have not "changed sex."

If that's what they want, fine. I don't have a problem with that. My only issues are (1) they just plain ARE NOT the opposite sex, and should not be treated as such; and (2) the movement needs to leave kids the hell alone (no social transition or meds before at least age 18).

I think the age should be 25 bc 18 year olds do not have fully formed frontal lobes

Sure, but if we can't even get gun laws that require you to be age 25 before you can own a handgun, we're certainly not getting laws that require you to be 25 before you can damage your own body.

That said, insurance companies could refuse to cover it prior to X age. And medical boards could set that as a guideline. And malpractice insurers could refuse to provide coverage to surgeons for those procedures unless the patient is 25 or up.

FYI, you can't buy a handgun by federal law until 21, just like rental cars, alcohol and everything else sane. So, really one could ask why we allow people to vote and mutilate their bodies at 18, when lawmakers don't trust them to do much else until 21.