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Content Warning: Extreme and graphic descriptions of autogynephilia in AGPs own words. Since this is a discussion of a paraphilia, I have marked it NSFW.

Greetings, you lovely ladies, I ran across a TERF on twitter that goes by "Nessa is typing" with the twitter handle FourthWaver. About a week ago she posted a thread that compiles many descriptions and receipts regarding Autogynephilia as a subject. This was a fascinating read, and huge kudos to Nessa for putting this together and explaining things calmly, rationally and clinically. The thread is divided into multiple sections, links are here:

INTRO

CORE

TYPE 1

TYPE 2

TYPE 3

TYPE 4

There are quite a few points that surprised me:

  • Given that AGP can pervade pretty much all parts of a male's life, Nessa argues that it might be more useful to consider AGP as its own sexuality instead of (or perhaps in addition to) being a paraphilia.

  • Autogynephilia is diverse. WAY more diverse than I could have guessed. There are 4 types, and a male can have 1 type, or all 4.

  • AGP is actually somewhat common. Not every male with AGP ends up identifying as trans, as the AGP usually has to also generate dysphoria before someone will transition, and it doesn't always do that. Although some types of AGP are more associated with causing dysphoria than others.

  • As one could guess, many of the males that experience this, seem to be completely oblivious to it, or that they assume that this is normal, or are unfazed by some of the more perverse aspects of it. Nessa mentions that one of the reasons she does this work is that she genuinely believes that educating males on their AGP does in fact help them.

  • Some of the behaviors, thoughts, and erotic images that AGPs experience are then equated (by them) as "feeling like a woman", or "having a woman's soul", or something along those lines. It is truly stunning that their interpretation of their ideal woman is equated with being an actual woman or feeling like an actual woman. It really appears more like their mental image of a woman, and an actual woman are antithetical, and they either don't understand this, or they don't care.

Nessa's write up is delivered very clinically, and at first I wasn't sure if it was a sympathetic description or not. I ultimately concluded that it isn't, and Nessa does explain her dispassionate approach at the end of the write up. Overall a good and informative read. I can't imagine how many comments from TIMs she had to dig through to compile this, lol.

*Content Warning: Extreme and graphic descriptions of autogynephilia in AGPs own words. Since this is a discussion of a paraphilia, I have marked it NSFW.* Greetings, you lovely ladies, I ran across a TERF on twitter that goes by "Nessa is typing" with the twitter handle FourthWaver. About a week ago she posted a thread that compiles many descriptions and receipts regarding Autogynephilia as a subject. This was a fascinating read, and huge kudos to Nessa for putting this together and explaining things calmly, rationally and clinically. The thread is divided into multiple sections, links are here: [INTRO](https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1592876961377894400.html) [CORE](https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1592877146749403138.html) [TYPE 1](https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1592877765446881280.html) [TYPE 2](https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1592878260265705472.html) [TYPE 3](https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1592878674260344832.html) [TYPE 4](https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1592878949800951809.html) There are quite a few points that surprised me: - Given that AGP can pervade pretty much all parts of a male's life, Nessa argues that it might be more useful to consider AGP as its own sexuality instead of (or perhaps in addition to) being a paraphilia. - Autogynephilia is diverse. WAY more diverse than I could have guessed. There are 4 types, and a male can have 1 type, or all 4. - AGP is actually somewhat common. Not every male with AGP ends up identifying as trans, as the AGP usually has to also generate dysphoria before someone will transition, and it doesn't always do that. Although some types of AGP are more associated with causing dysphoria than others. - As one could guess, many of the males that experience this, seem to be completely oblivious to it, or that they assume that this is normal, or are unfazed by some of the more perverse aspects of it. Nessa mentions that one of the reasons she does this work is that she genuinely believes that educating males on their AGP does in fact help them. - Some of the behaviors, thoughts, and erotic images that AGPs experience are then equated (by them) as "feeling like a woman", or "having a woman's soul", or something along those lines. It is truly stunning that their interpretation of their ideal woman is equated with being an actual woman or feeling like an actual woman. It really appears more like their mental image of a woman, and an actual woman are antithetical, and they either don't understand this, or they don't care. Nessa's write up is delivered very clinically, and at first I wasn't sure if it was a sympathetic description or not. I ultimately concluded that it isn't, and Nessa does explain her dispassionate approach at the end of the write up. Overall a good and informative read. I can't imagine how many comments from TIMs she had to dig through to compile this, lol.

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38 comments

Given that AGP can pervade pretty much all parts of a male's life, Nessa argues that it might be more useful to consider AGP as its own sexuality instead of (or perhaps in addition to) being a paraphilia.

''Since I can't control this and its taking over my life I may as well normalise it'' is exactly the kind of thing a person with a paraphilia would say.

Agree.

It’s the remove the stigma bullshit the ‘MAPs’ pull.

Right, I'm wondering if Nessa got that part from one of Anne Lawrence's works. If I understood this correctly, Anne Lawrence IS an AGP TIM and psychologist. I'm imagining he writes about AGP in a way that would normalize it, or try to make it sound like it's "not so bad", or "an OK thing to have", despite all the evidence we've acquired to the contrary.

Had to be from Lawrence. He is open about being AGP and aimed to normalize it in his book.

Excellent point about how erections shatter their fantasy of being female. It's why they're trying so desperately to force us to accept penises as female. I never quite made the connection before.

[–] assignedpooratbirth trans-wealthy 5 points Edited

I’d always known that for 99% of TIMs it’s a fetish. But this thread really highlighted that, and thinking about how often I’ve been subjected to their fetish, probably even given them “lady”boners by trying to “just be kind” and calling them a she… 🤮 Not doing that shit anymore. Fucking gross knowing that for a lot of women, we literally HAVE to participate in men’s sexual activity or risk losing our jobs or even be arrested! Not participating in a man’s sexual fantasy is a hate crime, apparently!

[–] assignedpooratbirth trans-wealthy 5 points Edited

Also

“I no longer steal stuff from my sister since I’m 18 now and she’s a minor.”

This line stuck out the most to me. He KNOWS it’s a fetish. He KNOWS he steals panties because it turns him on. Theft and indirect incest (not sure what else to call this…) is okay, but pedophilia isn’t. But it’s “not sexual.” Yeah, sure, buddy.

Right, you summed things up pretty well. This whole gender craze is mostly brought about by men with a particular fetish that have convinced the world that it's something else and needs to be affirmed. And every time we do affirm them, we might as well be the ones jerking them off. 🤢

Having said that, be very careful if you're going to withhold their affirmation in real life. Remember that in many places they've convinced society that you're a bad person if you don't participate. Don't put yourself at risk of ostracization or getting fired.

Very interesting, thanks for sharing this. I think the thing that stood out most to me was this passage:

This can manifest benignly – an AGP with a kink for redheaded women will almost certainly end up as a transwoman with red hair, for ex.

This can also lead to the age-inappropriate behaviors seen in some TIMs - e.g. grown men 'identifying' as young girls-- --dressing in a way wildly discordant with how women the man’s age dress; adopting childish mannerisms, etc.) - because the men exhibiting those behaviors are attracted to those pedophilic or pseudo-pedophilic depictions.

So they fashion themselves into the thing that they are attracted to….

So all those grown ass men out there dressing as little girls….🤢🤢🤢

Another very interesting point is their cognitive dissonance of pretending that their sexual arousal of themselves pretending to be a woman isn’t actually sexual arousal at all.

They use words like “euphoria/euphoric feelings” to describe how they feel.

When you substitute that for sexual arousal or erection, it’s much clearer to see what’s going on here.

Yes, this exactly. The shockingly honest phrase euphoria boner.

I point this out in my bullet list. How are you unfazed by the fact that you are clearly in a state of sexual arousal, while doing this? Or how are you denying it in the first place?

Here's a thought If they only dress up as little girls and playact their fantasies with other tims is that going to prevent them going after actual kids?

[–] CheshireBat [OP] 🦇 3 points Edited

Absolutely not. There's a TIM in Casper, Wyoming that's currently in prison for diddling a 10 year old girl in a bathroom.

[–] Ruby 11 points Edited

In my observations they often pick a specific muse to model themselves off of.... the AGP I first met had a thing for a specific red headed celebrity and unsurprisingly took her name as his own. Others I've met have taken names of classmates, siblings, wives, celebrities/famous people, or simply tried to steal their "look" or perceived "persona" (For example, Andrea Long Chu has a thing for Valerie Solanas*). Usually they get stuck in time - whatever moment they froze the muse in - so eventually if not immediately they give off the effect of being in the wrong fashion era or dressing for the wrong age group. The ones whose muses are children or adolescents tend to freak people out the most as they give off these eerie "adult playacting as a child" vibes (not to mention the perversion of playacting as a sexual child).

/* somewhat cynically i think he stole his name from Andrea Dworkin although Solanas clearly excites him more

[–] assignedpooratbirth trans-wealthy 3 points

Usually they get stuck in time - whatever moment they froze the muse in - so eventually if not immediately they give off the effect of being in the wrong fashion era or dressing for the wrong age group.

Explains a LOT about my previous TIM coworker that started dressing and acting like a 60 year old lady out of nowhere.

That's super creepy. Imagine being the woman that an AGP named themselves after. I'd be googling "How to file a restraining order."

That's a fantastic analysis.

And I love this line: "I am very open to questions, comments, concerns. If this thread viscerally upset you and you’d like to leave me an obnoxious masculine screed, please direct it to my e-mail <wedonotcare@gmail.com> 😊 "

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

OK, I will admit at first I thought, "Oh, an email address, I can drop her a note and tell her I thought it was a really good thread, and it was a good effort." I had to read the email address like 3 times then I was like, "Oh.... Cheshire.... you didn't...." 🤦‍♀️

[–] SecondSkin 8 points Edited

By sexuality are you meaning sexual orientation? Or sexual preference?

Both are wrong.

Sexual orientation is which sex class a person is attracted to.

In species who reproduce via sexual reproduction a member of all sex classes needs to contribute their gamete for there to be a possibility it will be successful. Either there has been an invisible third, or more, sex class magically contributing their gamete in every successful instance of sexual reproduction since the start of time, or there are two sex classes.

Given there are only two sex classes sexual orientation means being same sex, opposite sex or both sex attracted.

Sexual preference is much wider, and shouldn’t be conflated with sexual orientation as that’s homophobic and is the obfuscating rhetoric gender ideology employs to blur boundaries and push their agenda. While sexual preference is much wider, it absolutely can involve non harmful preferences.

Paraphilia, by definition, abnormal sexual desires involving extreme, dangerous or harmful elements. They are by definition harmful to people always and always escalate that harm.

They also often have high comorbidity with other paraphilias, APG iirc has an especially high comorbidity rate, 40% ish, with the most common comorbidity exhibitionism and the second peadophilia.

By definition APG is highly predatory so isn’t merely a sexual preference either.

By sexuality are you meaning sexual orientation? Or sexual preference?

I'm not sure what I meant, actually. I'm not in either psychology or biology. Nessa's core thread opens with the line:

Autogynephilia is "the love of oneself as a woman." It is conceptualized best as a sexuality (can also be thought of as a paraphilia) that exists in some hetero males.

And this struck me as odd, or surprising which is why I listed it in my bullet points of surprising takeaways. Thanks for giving the definitions for those words. I would agree that AGP isn't a sexual orientation.

Is there a tldr version of this? (For those of us with conditions not just laziness)

I got you! Someone in the Twitter replies challenged Nessa to summarize her essay into a single tweet. I will paste that tweet here and link you to it. However, I will warn you that there has already been some healthy debate here as to whether or not AGP should be considered a sexuality versus a paraphillia. So take that part with a grain of salt.

SUMMARY

"AGP is a pseudo-sexuality found in some hetero men. It has 4 core 'types,' focused on four aspects of their perception of women-clothes, body, body functions, social role. They often dislike arousal and will minimize/deny it. They comprise a signif. portion of the MTF community."

~Nessa is typing

Nessa mentions that one of the reasons she does this work is that she genuinely believes that educating males on their AGP does in fact help them.

I definitely agree with this. There’s a subreddit of men who are aware that they’re AGP, and that awareness does appear to be somewhat of a protective factor against transing.

Maybe GCs need to speak more about AGP in clinical language like Nessa does rather than taking a judgmental tone, which puts AGP men on the defensive and pushes them further into denial. I know, I know: it’s not our job to worry about men’s feelings. I’m also someone who has referred to these men as sexual degenerates many times (because they are). But I also really, really want the trans trend to end, and am open to any strategies that will stop it.

Fascinating (and disturbing). Thank you.

I agree. One of my own personal takeaways from this, is that in the off chance that I ever end up on the dating market again, I will aggressively screen my prospects to specifically weed out AGP.

Yes. I believe that I dated one. The keys to avoid them is to filter men who (a) consume pornography, (b) believe they are less "masculine" than other men, and (c) have a history of dating women whom the male gaze considers hyper feminine (they date them as a compensation for their own perceived shortcomings).

(b) believe they are less "masculine" than other men

This is the most failproof method I've found. They say outright that they're not like the macho men, so they're looking for a girl who is understanding. Thinking, and rightly, that most young women will think he sounds sweet and nice, and not be aware that by saying "not like the macho men", he actually means "I'm going to show up in public in weird, half-assed drag and expect you to be okay with it".

Yes, I have also dated a man with AGP. He had a history of: believing in the divine feminine/Gaia-esque worship in terms of spiritual orientations, self-professed sexual submissive, dating very feminine-appearing women (including myself) and, specifically, dating bisexual women who previously had been in long-term lesbian relationships. Perhaps most tellingly he identified loudly and publicly as a "feminist". He objectified and used women and dragged them in his messy emotional/sexual spiral and I wish I knew then what I know now.

It's crazy how this can manifest sometimes. I was nearly SA'd by someone who I now understand was an AGP TIM. This was long before I peaked or heard about autogynephilia. He knew I wasn't a lesbian or bisexual, yet still locked me in his bedroom and tried to coerce me into sex, while viewing him "as an authentic girl". My fear was nearly matched by my confusion during that incident. I guess none of this has to make sense to them. Got away and never interacted with him again. 😓