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I don’t get it.

I stayed some very obvious facts on YouTube recently that AGPs make the entire trans community look bad.

Duh.

Listen, I know most of us don’t believe in true trans and I’m not sure I do either, but how many TERFs started out fine with the idea of HSTS and then peaked because of depraved AGPs?

I spend enough time here I shouldn’t be surprised, but omg. The comments calling me transphobic and a terf. For saying that someone has to do something about Yaniv because he’s making the entire community look like a bunch of perverts. Saying I’m dogwhistling.

I can’t.

If you are really an advocate of trans rights, don’t you HAVE to hate Yaniv and Long Chu types? They are literally destroying your movement!! They’re not only saying but acting out the quiet part out loud.

How hard is it to say: some “cis men” will OBVIOUSLY appropriate the identities of “trans women” because “cis men” are perverts who have made media about how much they wish they had their own boobs to fondle for decades??

I don’t get it. If I’m an HSTS or even an AGP, I don’t want Yanivs parading around making me look like a threat. Whether I want access to women’s bathrooms because I really do feel threatened by other men or whether it’s so I can jerk off and talk about tampons, I don’t want someone like Yaniv or Chris Chan making people certain I should be in the men’s room.

Everyone should agree on this.

But they just will NOT. They will not denounce Yaniv. They will not say that Chris Chan is just a dude “appropriating trans identity” for his own purpose.

You don’t need to explain to me the whole bit about “well that’s self ID for you” because duh but this doesn’t benefit ANYONE. TRAs do not benefit from this kind of “anyone who says they’re trans is trans” bullshit either.

They have options. They could say “hey, anyone acting out porn tropes is not trans.”

These people are trying to tell me that autogynephilia DOES NOT EXIST when AGP communities exist in the open online for anyone to view. r/askAGP is a real subreddit.

Denying reality makes you look CRAZY and it makes TERFs look sane and rational. And it really comes across like you do not care about victims at all. Which most people don’t, but hey, women are half the population and if you don’t get your shit together each and every handmaiden has a limit.

They’re destroying their own movement in ways that are preventable. I get that AGPs are so lost in their own boners that they’re not thinking straight. But everyone else who stands up for them constantly?

why

I don’t get it. I stayed some very obvious facts on YouTube recently that AGPs make the entire trans community look bad. Duh. Listen, I know most of us don’t believe in true trans and I’m not sure I do either, but how many TERFs started out fine with the idea of HSTS and then peaked because of depraved AGPs? I spend enough time here I shouldn’t be surprised, but omg. The comments calling me transphobic and a terf. For saying that someone has to do something about Yaniv because he’s making the entire community look like a bunch of perverts. Saying I’m dogwhistling. I can’t. If you are really an advocate of trans rights, don’t you HAVE to hate Yaniv and Long Chu types? They are literally destroying your movement!! They’re not only saying but acting out the quiet part out loud. How hard is it to say: some “cis men” will OBVIOUSLY appropriate the identities of “trans women” because “cis men” are perverts who have made media about how much they wish they had their own boobs to fondle for decades?? I don’t get it. If I’m an HSTS or even an AGP, I don’t want Yanivs parading around making me look like a threat. Whether I want access to women’s bathrooms because I really do feel threatened by other men or whether it’s so I can jerk off and talk about tampons, I don’t want someone like Yaniv or Chris Chan making people certain I should be in the men’s room. **Everyone should agree on this.** But they just will NOT. They will not denounce Yaniv. They will not say that Chris Chan is just a dude “appropriating trans identity” for his own purpose. You don’t need to explain to me the whole bit about “well that’s self ID for you” because duh but this doesn’t benefit ANYONE. TRAs do not benefit from this kind of “anyone who says they’re trans is trans” bullshit either. They have options. They could say “hey, anyone acting out porn tropes is not trans.” These people are trying to tell me that autogynephilia DOES NOT EXIST when AGP communities exist in the open online for anyone to view. r/askAGP is a real subreddit. Denying reality makes you look CRAZY and it makes TERFs look sane and rational. And it really comes across like you do not care about victims at all. Which most people don’t, but hey, women are half the population and if you don’t get your shit together each and every handmaiden has a limit. They’re destroying their own movement in ways that are preventable. I get that AGPs are so lost in their own boners that they’re not thinking straight. But everyone else who stands up for them constantly? #why

58 comments

[–] katzelig 55 points Edited

The problem is that once you admit that "fake trans" exist and let people start asking questions about transitioners' motivations, the whole thing falls apart and it becomes obvious that there's actually no legitimate reason to transition.

Right now they just go by this undefinable "feeling of being a woman" (or man), and say that "cis people don't notice these feelings because their gender identity matches their sex". It's a convenient argument because it leaves "cis" people unable to question them, so to hold that up, they need to accept literally any man who says that he "feels like a woman". (except for detrans people, which is why they put so much effort into trying to silence them)

[–] sohh 17 points

This reminds me of that recent debacle where a trans organization was going to share evidence they allegedly found that proved a true trans brain. But then TRAs were up in arms about it because they knew it would prove that the vast majority of TIPs are full of shit.

I’m still really curious what the “research” said.

It might be this paper, Guillamon et al 2016. It's a review of other studies, and it concludes that homosexual MTFs have feminized brain features, but non-homosexual ones have brains that 1) are as masculinized as cis men's, and 2) are different in having unusual features in body-processing regions.

Those AGPs are the reason why tru trans got legal and political advancements. It was sexually abusive perverts who made trans a brand that got sold on social media and to the greater public.

Tru trans might be slightly saner than AGPs (highly debatable as far as I am concerned), but ultimately they are equally nonsensical and their ideology is based on the same "womanhood is a state of mind" mantra. Their position can be shredded to pieces just as easily as AGPs' s, so they need AGPs' s aggressiveness and their economical/social backing. AGPs are vindictive assholes, I don' t think it' s too farfetched that they might concoct a way to get their privileges while at the same time excluding their enemies, even when they are part of the same community.

So basically, going full force against them means that if tru trans are successfull, they get pushed back together with AGPs by society and the government, and if they fail, AGPs get their privileges and tru trans still get pushed away.

That’s a good point. So called true trans benefit from the rich AGP that can change laws and policy and make their surgeries easier to get so they sit back and don’t say anything.

And many “true trans” want to be “stealth” and then speaking out would ruin that.

[–] GCRadFem 20 points

This is how I see it. It’s strength in numbers as well as the brotherhood. They know that TIMS are still their brothers.

Without the sheer numbers, they would lose their power to browbeat, gaslight and abuse the non-believers. Us.

[–] a_shrub 8 points Edited

I don' t think it' s too farfetched that they might concoct a way to get their privileges while at the same time excluding their enemies, even when they are part of the same community.

It's been my observation that this is already going on between the "tucutes" and the "truscum," where truscum are being run out of trans spaces for invalidating tucutes with their attempts at gatekeeping, as if gatekeeping was the most vile form of transphobia in existence. There seems to be a wide range within the truscum camp as to what constitutes "real" trans, but the gatekeeping seems to be about having gender dysphoria, hopefully diagnosed by a professional, and varying degrees of acceptance/rejection of non-binary identities.

But yeah, the tucutes want all gender self ID to be valid and if you don't agree, you're just as bad as those self-hating cis women terfs (who probably deserve to be raped) :P

Why don’t decent men police and fix other men? Why don’t the good husbands, fathers, brothers and sons, ensure that other men aren’t raping, murdering and terrorising their mothers, sisters, wives and daughters?

It’s the same answer imho. Women and girls don’t matter enough to them. Even the decent men out there will believe they’ve done their bit by not treating us poorly, they won’t believe they have any responsibility for how other men treat us. At least not 99% of them. We can see the odd ‘true trans’ loudly speak up about the risk apg pose- Yardly did this, to the extent he had death threats, doxxed, dragged through court for ‘transphobia’. He was honest that TRAs were predator cultists grooming young lesbians, very vocally through the early years of this. One of Maya’s solicitors was a TiM who backed women all the way. There are a few rare men who can reflect on the power and privilege they have because of being male, and will use it to police other men’s behaviour towards women, even at cost to themselves. But these are the very very rare exceptions. 99.9% of men will not put themselves out for women (and I’m sure those who do have other flaws also).

It's also the 'racket' that benefits the 'good men'. What worth is a 'good man' doing the minimum (not to say your examples are the 'minimum', the two you've mentioned do sound like they've honestly put their own reputations and peace of mind on the line to support women) if there aren't any 'bad men' to compare to? 'Aren't you lucky you have me around to protect you from them/aren't you lucky you've got me, one of the good ones? [even if I don't do my share of the housework/childcare and expect you to live up to standards I don't hold myself to]'

In a way, I can understand how it can feel futile for a good man to police the predators of the world. At best, he's ignored. At worst, the scrotes turn on him.

I’ve been thinking about this point.

I sort of agree in some way. I see my husband, who is a very decent guy and who backs me 100% arguing with our daughters school about this and any issue relating to safeguarding or our children being girls (or any issue actually). He is firm to address sex role stereotypes at home- he cleans much more even though he works, he carries the mental load of all House organisation/paper work (I do the girls paper work-of which there is a lot as they have disabilities) and he is firm that everything he earns is ours/will go out of his way to make that clear with our girls-that he earns because I do the lions share of childcare. And he does his fair share when he is in the house also. And prioritises me getting the break I need to manage my stress. And was more anti porn earlier than I was (we’ve been together a long time) because he saw it as the same as the csa and images of abuse that happened to me as a child. He was more anti misogynistic slurs long before I got there also, never commented if I used them but I’ve never heard him utter one ever, even drunken student days. He has a mother and sister he respects, despite disliking them (his family aren’t nice people, or in our lives really), an aunt and a (late) grandmother he adores (they raised him more than his family). Not to be fawning over my Nigel, I’m sure he’s not perfect, but 25 years into our relationship and nearly teen girls with multiple disabilities- I’m confident I know him well enough to be sure he’s a decent guy even though I realise there’s never a 100% way of knowing this.

Yet despite not having to deal with the reality of being female, he is as worn down with life as I am, as many of our friends are when we struggle with bills and raising children and disabilities and dying relatives and so on. And while he will back me 100% school I know he wouldn’t want to risk his employment and wages because they pay for our daughters (and disabilities are expensive). He’d stand up to something overt I’m sure- if a man attacked a woman on the street-but his asshole boss being ‘everyday misogynistic’ or similar? I’m not sure. And I expect many of us might have a decent yet flawed Nigel (or father, brother, son etc) in our lives like this.

But there’s also other decent men who are in greater positions to address/police other men. Who are in roles that come with the power and responsibility to do so-teachers can and should address it with the children they teacher, social workers, youth workers and coaches, social workers, police etc etc. yet often they don’t. They are actively part of the problem or they let it happen but not taking action. And the decent men like my husband can address this with them. He can pull up head teachers on how they address boys behaviour, challenge them when it’s not good enough, point to the DfE guidance about dismantling stereotypes, be well informed and back me when I address this with them. And he can be a better example to any boys of young men. Even if that’s not a direct challenge it’s something. And I do think decent men owe us this, given the effectively benefit from being male in a world that lets men away with everything.

So I agree with you to a point, but only to a point. The systems in place that are supposed to address this (like schools) often don’t and that could change if the decent men within these systems prioritised changing this. Many don’t.

30 years ago the HSTS pretty much left women alone. They were gay men who primarily got boob jobs and dressed like drag queens. You'd encounter them in clubs and in very large cities but that's it. In fact, when the first bathroom bill thing happened in S. Carolina my first thought was, "is there even a single transvestite in the entire state?!?!?" I thought it was the GOP making a mountain over a single very mentally ill young girl.

The AGPs were monitored better by society.

Was I naive!

However, those HSTS weren't exactly allies to women. I remember them being jerks to women in clubs and grabbing us to try to see what real boobs felt like.

I just don't believe in the true trans vs. fakers...it's all some version of men trying to invade womanhood.

[–] ProxyMusic 22 points Edited

30 years ago the HSTS pretty much left women alone. They were gay men who primarily got boob jobs and dressed like drag queens.

30 years ago in the part of NYC I lived, some of these gay guys - who back then were simply known as transvestites - harassed and bullied women on the streets, particularly women who were exceptionally good-looking, visibly pregnant or were pushing a pram or stroller or had small children in tow.

A group of the gay transvestite street hustlers and "sex workers" who hung out on the streets in my nabe frequently harassing female passersby also demanded access to female spaces such as women's restrooms in public places and the local women-only gym I belonged to. When they were refused access to and membership at the gym, these men threatened, verbally abused, physically menaced and accosted both the gym owners and gym members and they used legal means to try to get the gym shut down.

In my experience, even 30 years ago, quite a few HSTS were not inclined to "pretty much leave women alone." Even you admit that the ones you encountered in clubs back then were "jerks to women" and would grab women's breasts "to try to see what real boobs felt like." That's not exactly "pretty much leaving women alone, is it?

Damn...that's awful. I'm so sorry. Men will be men will be men, huh?

Thankyou for this perspective. Frankly I was too sheltered to know many HSTS , so I do just blithely assume they “weren’t that bad”.

But it makes sense that 1 episode of “Sex in the City” isn’t necessarily objective, haha

Part of the reason so many on the left support this shit is because they foolishly believe that all "trans-women" are harmless, twinky gay men. They're unaware of the tsunami of AGPs who make up 90% of the modern "trans-women" community

If I’m wandering around in a cat costume pretending I’m a cat, the absolute last thing I should do is point out other people’s cat costumes and tell them they aren’t real cats. That’s the situation trans people are in - there’s no such thing as “true trans” because no human can or ever will change sex. Their only two options are to keep saying “no debate! No questions!” or admit that they’re all pretending and give up the whole charade.

[–] ProMoleratWaxer #1 Worst Poster 22 points

"why aren't moderate incels working to disavow extreme incels"

because they are just various degrees of same hate movement, for example eli elrick is a violent serial rapist who confessed to ir and is still applauded and is doing some University of California Santa Cruz phd program while still interconnected with activism right now (btw TRAs bullied the victim into suicide allegedy), the tooth gap guy who i can't remember the name of has felony drug trafficking charges and is still trying to distribute drugs to kids.

They glofify the work of nazi genital transplant surgeons (which also catastrophically failed) who then went on to torture masses of jews to death in ww2. The founder of the gender identity sociology theory is someone who no consensually experimented on a male infant practiced on him infant cosmetic genital surgery and forced him to simulate sex acts on his also underage brother to make him a 'bottom'. Produced child porn of them under the gauze of 'genital inspections' and they both killed themselves compounded by these actions. You can watch the interview here where the victim asked whether he had to commit suicide for the experiments to be regarded as unsuccessful

it's not a bug its a feature even famous ones try to get child rapist + murderers leniency because they're the same religion.

[–] ProxyMusic 20 points Edited

Listen, I know most of us don’t believe in true trans and I’m not sure I do either, but how many TERFs started out fine with the idea of HSTS and then peaked because of depraved AGPs?

You're presuming an either/or categorization that I don't think exists. The fact is, AGPs can be and are just as much "true trans" as HSTSs. And plenty of HSTSs have AGP too. In fact, I believe that the vast majority of gay TIMs especially today have AGP.

As I see it, AGP is a sexualized expression of male narcissism driven by the male libido and male sexual fantasies inspired by pornography that can be found among self-absorbed, vain, preening, porn-consuming boys and men who are attracted to, enthralled by and/or aroused by the external trappings of "femininity" - regardless of their sexual orientation.

Those who believe in "true trans" say that to be legitimately "trans" requires having "gender dysphoria." But AGPs have just as much "gender dysphoria" as HSTS males who don't have AGP and TIFs do. In fact, sexologists like Blanchard and Bailey say, and some women acknowledge, that the erotically-driven "gender dysphoria" of men and adolescent boys with AGP is often the most painful, overwhelming, persistent and hard to bear and treat kind of "gender dysphoria" of all.

Agreed. Whether someone is gay or straight doesn't determine whether they are claiming to be trans because they genuinely want to be what they think a woman is or because they're men who have no desire to be women but claim to be trans to get into women's spaces, like prisoners who magically detransition once they get released.

Because nearly all the male "trans" (certainly all the het men) are AGP to a greater (usually) or lesser degree. And even many of the "trutrans" are themselves AGP.

The truth is that the AGPs outnumber the HSTSs by a significant margin. HSTSs are a minority within a minority, being a subgroup of gay men. AGPs, being a subgroup of straight men, is mathematically gonna be a much larger population.

And the second truth is that the majority of AGPs know the truth about themselves: they are more like the vocally extreme Yanivs and Long Chus than they ever want to admit to other people. Long Chu is just saying the quiet part out loud. Yaniv is just doing in the open what the rest of the AGPs wish they could do: exert control and dominate women overtly, to satisfy a sexual desire.

When people like this get called out, or feel like people are getting close to the truth, they get defensive. This can cloud their judgment and cause them to dig in and defend things that aren't actually in their best interest. They reveal a truth about themselves when they defend things.

Because they already get whatever they want anyway. They have access to the changing rooms, the sports, the prisons. Why should they bother about the men who terrorize women? They were already indifferent to the women who were uncomfortable with their presence in our spaces to begin with. From their perspective, there is nothing to gain by doing the right thing.

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