My male partner is in basic agreement on important points of gender wars, but sometimes clearly thinks I'm overestimating the scale of the problem, in terms of how widespread beliefs about the crazier aspects are within the left and institutions.
This recently came up again as he had been talking to some serious conspiracy theorists about their beliefs - from chemtrails and covid-is-a-hoax to actual flat-earthism. I tried to say something about how yes, all of that is obviously insane, and there is some kind of growing internet + disenfranchisement problem, and did he see how that was also true of the people we know on the left thinking various equally irrational things about sex and gender? I completely failed to convince him - he admitted that thinking women are disadvantaged at sport just because of social pressure, and that colonialism imposed sex differences are irrational beliefs, but not that they are widespread or mainstream (in our very left circles, where they are...). He said that most people who say TWAW don't mean it literally and are playing some kind of intellectual game rather than deluded.
So I was just wondering what people here think? Are they comparable mass delusions, or different types of things? I'm not particularly looking to win the argument, although I wish I'd been better able to explain what seems so obvious to me! But it's made me genuinely wonder if there are differences, and if so what they are.
It is very obvious which is worse: The one that affects legislation.
Gender insanity dictates the law. Males get to win at womens' sports. Male rapists are allowed into womens' prisons.
So what if some conspiracy theorists believe that the earth is flat and covid is a hoax? As long as politics are made without even the slightest consideration for such conspiracy theories (and currently, I don't see any political decisions being made on basis of the assumption that the earth is flat), those theories are not really a problem.
(This is also something I tell the idiotic pro-genderists who claim that they don't want males in womens' prisons and that wanting men to get to rape women in prison is a "fringe opinion" and doesn't represent transactivism - why then, is it made law? Why, if they are against it, do they not speak up? It is blatantly obvious that they are lying through their teeth.)
Edit: As for which is more insane, I still think gender ideology.
Gender ideology claims that what our eyes can see (that men are men and not women, for example) is wrong.
Flat-earthism, on the other hand, is quite silly, but one must give it that: It is something that makes sense to people who don't live near the sea, have never been in an airplane, etc. Chemtrails and Covid-as-hoax, likewise, are things that are not easily disproved by just leaving one's house.
The rightist conspiracy theories are rooted in distrust against science, the leftist insanity is caused by too much trust in everything that pretends to be science. Both, taken to the extreme, are wrong, but at least the approach of only believing what you can understand is natural. It served humanity well enough for survival for a long time.
Gendernonsense, on the other hand, is not sustainable, and I have a niggling suspicion that the explicit ban in the Bible on men wearing womens' clothing and vice versa might have been caused by AGPs already having existed back then, and people having noticed that it is very, very bad for society to let them do what they want. (I do not think that enough women passed as male that it would have posed a major problem to patriarchy.)
Yes I think that's it - the effect on legislation is what makes it seem like a real threat to me, and also proof of how seriously people take it, and that they're not just playing word games. Next time it comes up I'll go with that tack..
Which is no better, because it means they know it is a lie and support the destruction of women’s rights anyway.
People are scared to say that there are only two genders in public and at work. People are not scared to say a conspiracy theory. Just from that it's obvious what's more harmful to society.
I just want to point out to anyone here younger than 30, that a huge chunk of conspiracy theories from 10-60 years ago were proven to be true. Many are not shocking to the new generation and are either common knowledge or fun facts. A lot of boomers and Gen Xers come from the generation when the whole "government is spying on you on the phone" was absolutely a tinfoil conspiracy. Now it's just known.
That's why so many older people are into these theories because they have been around the block and witnessed the tinfoil stuff turn true. Then we had the whole government recently lying to us about masks so the public doesn't go buy masks, just to turn around and vilify people not wearing masks. I don't care which side you are on about masks but that's the objective truth of what happened.
So I don't think that those conspiracy theories are nearly as harmful as the pure lies and vitriol that the gender ideology is pushing on everyone.
Conspiracy theories try to search for the truth obscured from us and tend do sometimes get a little crazy. But gender ideology is about purposely clouding and hiding the truth.
I think the underlying irrationality is at least equally insane, to the point where it's easy to sound like a conspiracy theorist yourself when just trying to call people's attention to what gender ideologists actually believe, say, and do, IMO it's actually even more insane than flat eartherism to deny such a fundamental, personally observable fact that men and women are different, but there's one considerable difference to be factored into it: it's incredibly well funded and trusted institutions are pushing it. The sources you'd normally turn to for the facts have been captured. This isn't the grassroots crazy of garden variety conspiracy theories, but oligarch-driven insanity. And so many of the people who buy into it aren't the usual paranoid/distrustful skeptics, or bored clever people getting trapped in an obsessive, increasingly detached from reality and mentally unhealthy spiral, but rather people who are too trusting, who aren't paying that much attention and take the prevailing narrative about this at face value. People whose response to 'that doesn't make any sense' immediately terminate the thought with 'I just must not understand.'
And the truth is, the scope of this insanity is a huge pill to swallow. It WOULD be easier, and a lot more comfortable, to just believe that the people setting these policies know what they're doing and have good intentions. In this case, the reality is so horrifying it doesn't seem possible.
It reminds me very much of the saying that "religion is good people doing bad things." It seems like a lot of the people who buy into this are heavily invested in an image of themselves as The Good Guys. "Be kind" was clever marketing because lifelong liberals have been taught to think of themselves as the compassionate, tolerant, accepting ones.
Yes, it bothers me far more because people who I know very well and used to respect are 100% bought in to genuine belief in obviously untrue and harmful things. Including people who have had access to good education and who have comfortable, financially secure and happy social lives, which makes it hard to see what need they're trying to meet with it. And the fact that Labour MPs have said that babies aren't born with a sex but that it's imposed on them seems scarier to me than the more familiar right wing climate denier. Maybe both politician types are just playing word games, but there is clearly genuine confusion about what should be very straightforward commonly agreed truths.
Very well said.
I don't know if that makes me a bad partner or just old and out of fucks but at this point I'd have zero tolerance for a male who wants to bed me to spew this disingenuous bullshit. Is he genuinely incapable of reading the rape threats that even the most modest women get for the smallest criticism? Does he really not see how males harass, rape and murder us? Does he have any common sense of what will happen when you let hetero men in with women and girls in state of undress. Has he never heard of rape?
If a man wants in my pants but needs a university style lecture to "comprehend" how male supremacy hurts women then he should just keep banging his own hand.
Is the flat earth lobby elbowing their way into schools to groom kids into thinking harmful nonsense?
Are chemtrailers forcing workplaces to do strange quasi-religious compliance rituals with their employees?
Kooky and eccentric beliefs are harmless until they have the force of social and legal pressure behind them.
Of course they're comparable, but the gender delusion is far worse. We have sterilized and mutilated a generation of children. That really happened and is still happening. Women are being erased under the law - it already happened. Gender identity has taken precedence over sex in legislation. There has been widespread institutional capture.
How is that not much, much worse than Qanon?
Creationism: Privileging the words of a handful of Bronze Age misogynists who claimed to speak for G-d over a planetful of evidence left directly by G-d.
Genderism: Privileging the words of a handful of modern-day misogynists who claim to be women over evidence produced over the entirety of
humanall living history showing they are not.
Gender ideology is worse because the entire thing is based on nonsense that we already know is not possible: no one can ever change sex and there is no "woman born in a man's body" nonsense.
I think they’re equally insane and irrational. There’s a documentary on Netflix about flat-earthers and it shows them doing experiments that literally prove their “theory” wrong and yet they still continue to believe. It’s driven purely by ideology, not evidence or facts, exactly like gender nonsense. The gender stuff is much more insidious though because it preys on people’s desire for social justice, it’s more widespread and mainstream, and it directly affects women and girls in a multitude of ways.
The only thing that I can spot is that at least on the surface, most of the support for ring-wing conspiracy theories is less motivated by "kindness". Right wing conspiracy theorists are selfish and egotistical in their beliefs, and pretty open and proud about it. After all, if anyone is hurt by it... they bring it on themselves by not accepting the "truth", or people only claim that the thing is hurtful to try to discredit the movement.
Gender ideology on the other hand is also selfish and egotistical, but it's easy to hide behind a veneer of "kindness" and a belief in equality to justify all that they do, including breathtakingly cruel behavior.
At least conspiracy theories stay on the fringes, well out of policy (thank god), and at least usually openly announce "I believe in this because it makes me feel righteous and unfallibly right, and I don't give a fuck who doesn't like it" instead of the constant bleating about kindness and tolerance.
These people don't see a damn thing wrong with pointing at a man and saying "You like pretty clothes and makeup, so you can't be a man" and they're too blown up about being enlightened that they aren't sickened with themselves.