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I'm sure it's been said many times before, but does anyone find non-binary identities (which seem more prevalent among women and girls) to be more offensive than someone saying they are the opposite sex?

At least with 'trans' identity a person may be embracing what they think being the opposite sex means (however misguided), as well as rejecting their own sex. But with NB they are essentially just rejecting their own sex, like "I'm too good to be a woman" and "you are 'binary' but I am special".

I'm sure it's been said many times before, but does anyone find non-binary identities (which seem more prevalent among women and girls) to be more offensive than someone saying they are the opposite sex? At least with 'trans' identity a person may be embracing what they think being the opposite sex means (however misguided), as well as rejecting their own sex. But with NB they are essentially just rejecting their own sex, like "I'm too good to be a woman" and "you are 'binary' but I am special".

66 comments

[–] Edelgard 62 points (+62|-0)

I agree with you, although I don't find them more offensive, just more ridiculous. As a feminist, I could never accept the idea that men embracing the social role of women actually are women (or vice versa), but it makes some sense, especially if you agree with gender stereotypes. It's regressive and sexist, but it's not completely nonsensical.

Non-binary, on the other hand, makes no sense no matter where you come from. There are no gender roles associated with 'non-binariness', and humans only come in two sexes.Hell, non-binary people themselves don't know what they're supposed to be, or else why would people say "TWAW, TMAM, and non-binary people are valid" ? What does it mean for someone to be 'valid' ? I think you've hit the nail on the head with the 'not like other girls' syndrome; there's definitely an element of narcissism at play here, as well as a wish to be seen as different from the others.

NB is also a more convenient label than TW or TM: they're somehow perceived as even more vulnerable than them and they don't even need to crossdress. I've seen many people on twitter argue that NB people are welcome in lesbian spaces, gay spaces, women-only spaces, you name it. It feels like an easy out to me; you claim you're non binary and you can insert yourself into any conversation about any group, and you're untouchable because you're nothing. No one can point out that you're a man and have no place talking about misogyny (like some do with TiFs), or that as a straight woman you shouldn't shittalk lesbians - you're NB, so of course you can't be straight (but somehow you can be a lesbian). Misogynistic attacks don't apply to you, because you're not a woman. You're both part of everything and nothing at the same time, depending on what's the most convenient at the moment.

[–] yarnfiend13 25 points (+25|-0)

What does it mean for someone to be 'valid' ?

it means that everyone acknowledges how special and different you are. it means that the women around you bend over backwards to tell you how much better you are than stupid women.

[–] no- 6 points (+6|-0)

'Valid' is what people who know they're lying to themselves want to hear so they can keep pretending they're something they're not.

[–] drdee 21 points (+21|-0)

'It feels like an easy out to me; you claim you're non binary and you can insert yourself into any conversation about any group, and you're untouchable because you're nothing.'

That's fascinating.

[–] llkit 34 points (+34|-0)

It's just another way of getting attention from what I can see. And yes it's a way of fragmenting female led political action from what I can see as well.

[–] kaitzi 28 points (+28|-0)

I don’t see how it’s any more offensive than saying you’re the other sex.

Both are relying on stereotypes.

And I’d much rather have a girl identify as NB until she grows out of her “NLOG” stage instead of identifying as a boy and undergoing surgery

[–] orchidea [OP] 16 points (+16|-0)

That is true. Although recalling a post a while back where some people are now getting surgery to try and de-sex themselves, I suppose NB isn't necessarily immune to falling into surgery.

Oh right . This is the dark side of the new emo. Almost forgot- they want to be eunuchs basically (some do anyway)

[–] v_o_la 6 points (+6|-0)

Yeah, there are plenty of NBs who claim dysphoria and take hormones or (more commonly) remove their breasts. Even to women who recoil from the prospect of a T-fueled beard, top surgery has a certain hipness and mystique. On the right female body it can approximate the look of a slender teenage boy, which is preferable to looking like a woman, I guess, if you hate moving through the world as a woman but know you wouldn't be happy as a full-on man.

[–] Stealthygal 3 points (+3|-0)

I would absolutely be calling myself a she/her NB if I was a teen today. I get it.

[–] satanic 27 points (+27|-0) Edited

an enby friend of mine explained it as "I'm not a boy or a girl because I like some manly things and some girly things", and honestly, idk how she considers herself a feminist after saying what I think is one of the most regressive things I've ever heard in my life

[–] agodachi 3 points (+3|-0)

Did you challenge her on that comment?

I don't think I could contain myself after hearing such a dumb reasoning for someone's new "identity." It's as if a 5 year old came up with it or something.

[–] satanic 0 points (+0|-0)

honestly, I was so dumfounded I couldn't say anything. Then later I bit my tongue because this person is the kind that cancels everyone for the dumbest reasons.

[–] Laurel 20 points (+20|-0)

I don't know that I find it more annoying, but I find it plenty annoying.

[–] banjo 20 points (+21|-1)

I agree it's insulting to your fellow women, as I said in another thread yesterday. Today I will defend the NBs a little, because I do sympathize especially with the younger ones.

I'm afraid if I were about 15 right now I might be NB, and yet I wasn't someone who trashed other girls or sought attention for being Not Like them. I just genuinely felt weird and unfeminine. I'm sure many of you can relate.

I wish girls would talk to each other about not liking feminine expectations, beauty rituals, etc, so they could find out it's normal. I'm guessing a lot of them only explore those anxieties in their secret internet life, where they get indoctrinated into the thinking they're genderspecial.

I agree. In fact I'm sure if I were growing up today I would identify as non-binary -- but not for the attention.

If the options are:

  1. Cis: You submit to the gender stereotypes associated with your sex. You oppress trans people.
  2. Trans: You do not identify with the gender stereotypes associated with your sex. You require therapy and medical treatment.
  3. Non-binary: You are neither of the above. Either it's because you're special, or you just want to be left alone.
  4. TERF: You disagree with this ideology. You deserve to be murdered.

Then non-binary is the obvious choice.

[–] hascats 15 points (+15|-0)

Yeah, what teenager would ever want to be "cis"? You get to be boring, basic and unintellectual - and are constantly asked to understand and listen to everyone else, and also not to talk about your experience with gender because your experience is boring and basic, but also if you ever think about it at all you're trans, because cis people never think about their gender.

[–] fightlikeagirl 11 points (+11|-0)

Exactly, I can understand why kids get swept up in it, because who wants to be in the group that gets told to take a seat and left out of all the special attention when you can adopt a label and suddenly be showered with praise for being "valid"? It's like cult love-bombing tactics.

[–] Luckystar 6 points (+6|-0)

Yup. Technically speaking, we're all "non binary". I'll claim it if a gendie calls me "cis" because technically it's true, I certainly don't have a "feminine gender identity". It's just more that I don't view their ideology as a meaningful or useful lens through which to view the world to begin with.

That's literally the only difference between us and people who actually identify as "non binary"... the awareness that it's all bullshit anyway so to specifically identify as "non binary" is redundant

[–] WatcherattheGates 14 points (+14|-0)

If I was 15, and I saw what "woman" meant in porn, I'd be NB, too--in a heartbeat! I think it may be a form of protecting yourself from sexual harm.

[–] orchidea [OP] 12 points (+12|-0)

Yes, you and other commenters are right - it's right to be more understanding of girls who get seduced by this kind of thinking. My annoyance is mainly reserved for NB-identifying adults.

[–] boogerita 10 points (+10|-0)

I feel bad for them as well because all the NB women I know (and the one dude tbh) decided that’s what they are because they’ve experienced sexist trauma. Whether from sexual assault or from rigid sex-based roles in their upbringing. The women refuse to see the connection and instead think that when it comes to misogyny, they’ll be spared. One has major internalized misogyny and is always cracking on “bitches.”

The one NB dude I know is severely mentally ill, he’ll never see what’s going on, and I’ll never bring it up to him because he’s gotten physical with people. But the women, it’s like your stalker does not care how large your hoodie is, they know you’re a female and saying that “there’s no girls working here today” just makes you seem like an idiot, or at the very least, incredibly insecure.

[–] Tnetennba 3 points (+3|-0)

Oh I have plenty of sympathy for teenagers being sucked into this—it's the 30+ year old women that really burn my fucking biscuits.

[–] gncautistic 19 points (+20|-1)

I find it more annoying in the way how lazy it is. At least with ftm and mtf they at least somewhat try to look like the other sex. Non binary is being exactly the same but just sticking a label on your head.

[–] Stealthygal 3 points (+3|-0)

Not at all. Special hair is usually required. Preferably in the blue-green or pink range

[–] Fpccgc 19 points (+19|-0)

MK fain wrote an article on this and was fired for it

[–] Chopu 17 points (+17|-0)

That's the first thing that came into my head too. Here is the article for anyone interested: https://4w.pub/non-binary-is-the-new-not-like-other-girls-and-its-deeply-rooted-in-misogyny/

[–] orchidea [OP] 10 points (+10|-0)

Thanks for the article - much more erudite and comprehensive than my post!

[–] [Deleted] 16 points (+18|-2) Edited

A comment written by a man is currently the top comment (username is jon), just like Reddit! Sigh.

I honestly don't understand men who join this site and decide to participate, also making sure to comment very early on so the women can validate them. Can't you guys let women have at least one space just for us?

[–] pinklightsaber 10 points (+10|-0)

I somehow didn’t realize that men post here. Thank you for pointing that out.

[–] [Deleted] 6 points (+6|-0)

I joined hoping it'd be women only, or that there'd be male members but they'd know better than to post and comment, but no dice. I don't know what they're thinking.

[–] Luckystar 2 points (+3|-1)

I think the issue is mainly that it's impossible to police. This is the internet, how would they ensure no men signed up? Also, making the policy strictly women only would lead to (more) men hiding their male-ness.

It's a least bad option in a situation with perverse incentives.

[–] phoenix 6 points (+6|-0) Edited

I understand why the policy for allowing them is in place, and I agree with it... but it's still kind of annoying. Not the comment on this post, but... I actually first noticed him on a comment on a Mae Martin post, when someone said, "saying people are inaccurately referring to her as a ‘female comedian’ is simply laughable" and he responded: "Maybe it's the comedian bit" ...which is a fine/funny comment in this context, really, but also the moment I read it I felt like that user was male before even looking at the username (and I think "jon" could easily be a username for a female)... women just do not tend to suggest other women aren't funny, even as jokes, because we've heard too much of that shit from men about us collectively. (Although I guess a few women might do that, but primarily in the presence of men, so that the men will give them brownie points for putting women in their place too.)

So it's mildly annoying to see that here even though there's nothing overtly sexist about that particular comment... it's just one more little grain of sand in the desert. And you can't point that shit out because it's so small and harmless, individually... you can't get people to see the fuckton of sand society dumps on women.

[–] Tnetennba 4 points (+4|-0)

Although I guess a few women might do that, but primarily in the presence of men, so that the men will give them brownie points for putting women in their place too.

IME it happens almost exclusively only when men are present. Even if a woman privately thinks that she knows she'll most likely be outnumbered and argued with among other women.

Sure, there's occasionally the lone woman who loves tearing into other women 25/8, but again most of the time it's said as an appeasement to the men present.

[–] phoenix 2 points (+2|-0)

Yes, I think in my experience when women in female-only groups say specific women aren't funny, it's usually in a certain kind of conversation... like we're talking about favorite female comedians and then a woman might say, "I like ABC comedian... XYZ [who the other woman likes] isn't funny to me because she [insert specific critique here]" ...there's almost always a "to me" after the "not funny" and usually a reason given.

And Mae Martin is actually very funny... I binge watched Youtube videos of her shows a few years ago.

[–] [Deleted] 2 points (+2|-0)

I actually first noticed him on a comment on a Mae Martin post, when someone said, "saying people are inaccurately referring to her as a ‘female comedian’ is simply laughable" and he responded: "Maybe it's the comedian bit" ...which is a fine/funny comment in this context, really, but also the moment I read it I felt like that user was male before even looking at the username

Yes, that's a typical example. I first noticed him a couple of weeks ago when he said the gender-critical movement needed men "to turn ripples into waves". Like I said that time: you could tell it was a man "by the self-congratulatory, self-absorbed nature of his comment. He can't simply join this movement and be just another member of it: he needs to lead it". He really sticks out like a sore thumb.

Stuff like this confirms my suspicions that men can't be feminists and, when they pretend to be, it's because they've got ulterior motives. If he understood why the creation of this site was needed in the first place, he wouldn't be participating all over the place. The fact that he does tells me he doesn't give a damn about how gender ideology affects women. He must have some personal, petty reason to be here, like he was tricked by a ladyboy once and hasn't gotten over it yet.

It's funny because the last time I raised these concerns, somebody actually had the nerve to tell me that, if I wanted a women-only circle, I should go to /o/women. Why isn't there a /o/men where men can comment and be banned elsewhere? That would be the more reasonable thing to do. Alas, even this site is still catering to men.

[–] Vulvamort 15 points (+15|-0)

What 'enbies' don't get is that they're still binary. Because in an effort to look genderless and sexless they are feeding into the idea that male bodies are the default. The most you'll see an enby guy do is dye his hair or paint his nails, if that. Enby girls though? They bind, they wear men's clothes, they cut their hair. Some of them even get mastectomies and microdose testosterone. When was the last time anyone saw an enby guy getting breast implants or microdosing estrogen in order to 'de-sex' themselves?

[–] Stealthygal 2 points (+2|-0)

Richard O'Brien microdoses oestrogen but he's the dreaded "of course I'm still male" type and probably cancelled.

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