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Recently two African athletes, Christine Mboma and Beatrice Masilingi, have been banned from the Olympic 400 metre dash for not suppressing natural testosterone levels that exceed 5 nmol/L. This is being spun into a narrative that black ‘cis’ women athletes are being victimised by racist terfs who can’t tell the difference between trans athletes and black female athletes.

Nobody is talking about the fact that these athletes are intersex and have testes that produce these high levels of testosterone. It’s not discrimination against ‘cis black women’ for their athleticism. In Rio 2016 the women’s 800M winners podium had 3 XY intersex individuals on it including caster semenya. How is this fair for black women without high testosterone who couldn’t compete?

I feel for intersex individuals as it isn’t their fault but really they are taking the place of women who don’t have the testosterone advantage. All of these claims that terfs hate black women but nobody is thinking about the black female athletes that don’t have the chance to perform because their places are being taken. Also it’s ridiculous coming from the side of the debate that is pushing middle aged white males into elite competitions at the expense of young indigenous female athletes (see Laurel Hubbard).

I’m so tired of this manipulation of the facts and fiction-writing. We should be able to have a proper conversation about DSDs and sport without being accused of trying to eliminate black women from the competition because the XY athletes in question are black. A separate DSD contest sounds to me like the answer to these issues, but of course that would be met with cries of ‘racial segregation’ from the TRAs despite the fact that these countries could send a non-intersex female to run in the non-intersex category - and that white majority countries could enter athletes with DSDs into the DSD competition.

In short, the people crying about ‘terf racism’ don’t care about intersex people, they don’t care about black women, and they don’t care about women’s sports. They are appropriating the real issue of racism in sport for political point scoring and as a distraction technique to deflect from the Hubbard controversy

Recently two African athletes, Christine Mboma and Beatrice Masilingi, have been banned from the Olympic 400 metre dash for not suppressing natural testosterone levels that exceed 5 nmol/L. This is being spun into a narrative that black ‘cis’ women athletes are being victimised by racist terfs who can’t tell the difference between trans athletes and black female athletes. Nobody is talking about the fact that these athletes are intersex and have testes that produce these high levels of testosterone. It’s not discrimination against ‘cis black women’ for their athleticism. In Rio 2016 the women’s 800M winners podium had 3 XY intersex individuals on it including caster semenya. How is this fair for black women without high testosterone who couldn’t compete? I feel for intersex individuals as it isn’t their fault but really they are taking the place of women who don’t have the testosterone advantage. All of these claims that terfs hate black women but nobody is thinking about the black female athletes that don’t have the chance to perform because their places are being taken. Also it’s ridiculous coming from the side of the debate that is pushing middle aged white males into elite competitions at the expense of young indigenous female athletes (see Laurel Hubbard). I’m so tired of this manipulation of the facts and fiction-writing. We should be able to have a proper conversation about DSDs and sport without being accused of trying to eliminate black women from the competition because the XY athletes in question are black. A separate DSD contest sounds to me like the answer to these issues, but of course that would be met with cries of ‘racial segregation’ from the TRAs despite the fact that these countries could send a non-intersex female to run in the non-intersex category - and that white majority countries could enter athletes with DSDs into the DSD competition. In short, the people crying about ‘terf racism’ don’t care about intersex people, they don’t care about black women, and they don’t care about women’s sports. They are appropriating the real issue of racism in sport for political point scoring and as a distraction technique to deflect from the Hubbard controversy

109 comments

I've said it before and I'll say it again...these folks do not care about the South African woman who never got to compete internationally because of Caster Semenya taking her spot. Maybe she would have become world famous and set records too...or not...doesn't matter because she never even got a chance.

I'm also tired of hearing how they just have higher "natural testosterone level"...NO. They have testosterone levels well outside the range for women because they are biologically male. Their T levels are not high at all for their actual biological sex.

If anything, their T levels are low for males, but this is why it's so insulting, they're trying to turn the female sports categories into being for women and failed/mediocre men, which in reality basically means the actually sports categories will just be: men and mediocre men.

"Trans women have reduced testosterone levels so they're exactly the same as cis women."

"TERFs are reducing womanhood to testosterone levels."

Pick one.

Intersex XY individuals would have also been relegated to a third gender in cultures that TRAs love so much, but in this instance it's more useful for TRAs to force them into the colonialist, white supremacist gender binary.

TRAs always use whatever argument is expedient at a given time even if it contradicts one they made earlier. It's typical behavior of narcissists and habitual liars.

It’s so weird they go out of their way to describe these athletes as ‘cis women’ despite it going against their own terminology… almost like they have an agenda to push or something

[+] [Deleted] 25 points

My question is why are TRAs saying that these athletes are "cis women" when they are intersex? I thought they lumped intersex under their trans umbrella? Now they're "cis"?? Is intersex only convenient when it fits their narrative?

[–] MenHaveItEasy Moid Respecter 26 points Edited

They're lying to make the argument that women are becoming so obsessed and afraid of TIMs, that they're culling their own (cis) if they look too masculine. They make the same racist argument when they predict that the bathroom laws will make "cis" women chase black women out of the lady's room, because TRAs love to associate black women with masculinity.

What seems more likely? That a country is coincidentally sending two elite runners with the same hormonal conditon? Or we are seeing a scandal like the soviet doping?

[–] T4Pol 13 points Edited

There was an interesting Panorama episode on the BBC about cheating in the paralympics. One of the things discussed IIRC were how some disabilities are exagerarated so that athletes can compete in the same categories as those who are less able-bodied so they can easily win the medals.

Not a stretch to imagine the same thing happening with womens divisions.

Its a systemic issue in the olympics as a whole where cheaters will find any way to cheat and claw their way to those medals.

https://www.si.com/.amp/olympics/2020/03/03/paralympiccheating

I really want us women to just divest and boycott the Olympics and form our own XX-only Olympics, The Heraean Games. Women and girls only, sorry scrotes (even if your scrote is on the inside).

I read an article around the time of the Semanya controversy which said there are rumours in the athletics world that in certain countries, coaches visit schools specifically looking for XY intersex individuals like Semanya, Wambui & Niyonsaba in order to train them for womens sports - because they know they'll win, regardless of talent, etc.

Some teams / coaches don't care about anything apart from winning - look at the Russian doping scandal & the UK cycling doping scandal. And in comparison to doping, once you've found a suitable candifate, this method is a relatively inexpensive, risk free way to cheat the system & win world championship titles & prizes - & acrue the international status that goes with it.

It sounded lke the coaches & the national athletics bodies were quite predatory & exploitative, seeking these youngsters out then convincing them to train regardless of whether they had any initial interest in of thier own. I guess if you don't have many opportunities, you'd take them up on it.

A man born with a malformed or missing penis is NOT a woman.

This plays into TRAs categories of “men” and “non men”. If a male is born with a tiny or malformed dick he gets put into the “non men” category because “real men” have massive dongs and everyone else go into the “non men” category.

And according to TRAs Woman is just men with massive dongs who identify as women and all the non-massive dong havers are “non men”.

They’re dudes and these countries are deliberately scouting for men with these DSDs. If it’s not stopped it will only be a matter of time before they start CREATING babies with these disorders.

[–] bellatrixbells No flair. 🙁 14 points

I don't know about the eugenics part, but as you said it does appear like these countries are doing this specifically to win and gain some international prestige.

I believe another reason some African countries have done this is to stick it to the European-led world sports governing bodies & to the nations of "the Global North" more generally.

Athletics South Africa decided to put Semenya forward as a runner in women's sports knowing that Semenya was XY DSD not just to gain gold, glory & $$, but to challenge the hegemony of white-dominated orgs like the IAAF/World Athletics & the IOC - & to use modern-day gender ideology to hoist the white "global North" by its own petard more generally.

Many ANC officials who had risen to power in the SA government by the time Semenya was dubbed SA's "golden girl" attended college/uni or grad school in North America or the UK when gender studies & queer theory were becoming all the rage on campuses. I don't think it's a stretch to think that a number of guys with astute political minds from SA cleverly realized that ideas coming out of Western academia - such as "sex is a spectrum, not a binary," "there are five sexes," "no one knows what a woman is" & "sex determination in humans is really hard to do" - could easily be used to challenge the system of sex categorization in sports as well as to protest Europeans' "colonialist," oppressively binary, & of course "racist" & "white supremacist" ideas about who is a woman.

Whilst the South Africans haven't succeeded in trying to end sex categorization in women's sports, they have by & large won the war in the court of public opinion. People here & on forums like letsrun.com widely see the Semenya saga for the scam & long con that it is, but most of the world sees it very differently. Most of the world doesn't view Semenya as an XY person who has made use of his male-only DSD to cheat in sports & to screw over women athletes. No, most of the world sees Semenya as a noble, put-upon "woman with naturally occurring high testosterone" who has been treated unfairly & cruelly by the IAAF/WA. Most of the world sees Lynsey Sharp as evil, & Semenya as a saint.

Wow - troll much? There is just so much wrong with this comment.

Imagine growing up believing yourself to be a girl because you know, born with a vagina. Then you get to puberty abd even though your breasts grow, you never start your period.

You’re a runner and all of sudden, you’re making huge improvements in short times. This raises suspicions about doping. The athletic association has some docs look to see what’s the issue, run a bunch of tests, and find that you are biologically male even though visually at every level you are female. Hell - the doctors couldn’t even tell until they looked at bloodwork. It’s pretty rough to find this out, makes you question a lot, and creates some really uneasy feelings. You are dealing with this privately but then the whole world finds out.

Then imagine some troll calling you a “dude” in the name of feminism. Then they come up with a conspiracy that your country deliberately scouted for you to be a runner, knowing that you were biologically male even though the doctors didn’t know. But not just that, pretty soon countries will be purposefully making babies like you in the future.

Doesn’t that sound ridiculous?

I think you're confusing 5-ARD, the condition Caster Semenya has and presumably these other athletes have, with CAIS. Males with 5-ARD go through male puberty. They nearly always know they're male well before puberty. They don't grow breasts. They're not "visually female." They have nothing more in common biologically with women than any other male adult has. They're men without dicks and with internal testes, that's it.

CAIS, which you seem to be describing here, is a much less clear cut situation - CAIS women are XY but don't respond to testosterone, so they don't go through male puberty and they don't have the massive advantages over XX female competitors that these cheating men have.

He went to early grade school wearing a men’s uniform, and recently fathered a child. Sooooo.....

[–] ProxyMusic 9 points Edited

the doctors couldn’t even tell until they looked at bloodwork

You don't seem to be at all informed about this topic.

No actually it doesn’t sound ridiculous. What is the evidence that these men was reared as women? Certainly there’s plenty that Semenya wasn’t. And if you think, especially in light of the grand scale cheating that’s been exposed in sports over the decades, that the idea of a country scouting for DSDs sounds like a conspiracy theory, you’re gullible as fuck. The likelihood that those three men, all from African countries, wound up on that podium by happenstance is patently absurd.

They can deal with it the same way Erik Schinegger did in 1967! Gracefully accept that you are genetically male and bow out of the female competition. All it takes is a simple cheek swab to determine chromosomes. No excuses. The countries fronting all these intersex competitors in the female category are doing it on purpose.

ps- don't read the info from the youtube poster. Erik Schinegger isn't transgender. he accepts that he is a man and has fathered children.

This is a photo of Christine Mboma and Beatrice Masilingi standing with a woman. I think it speaks for itself.

https://twitter.com/e_kantema/status/1382354349939130373/photo/1

Those are men. They know they’re men. We know they’re men. They know we know they’re men. Yet nobody seems to GAF.

they're male but i would not consider them the same as an endosex man because they probably grew up perceived as female...

They're not "the same" as in having the same life experience... if everyone truly thought they were female as children, then of course they've had a very different experience from most men as children in terms of socialization. But if we define "man" as "someone who went through socialization intended for male children" then we'd also either be saying we want to keep socializing male and female children differently, or if we seek to stop treating them differently it means we seek to destroy the categories of "man" and "woman" altogether. If these athletes are XY with internal testes, it's clear they're male... and all adult males are men. These are just men with unusual bodies and childhood experiences.

You mean like Caster Semanya wearing the male school uniform? I just don’t believe what is reported about these “females.” On one hand, I get what you’re saying, but on the other, it seems like males with this specific condition are recruited for track and this situation is well known. I don’t have sympathy when they are taking away opportunities from actual women.

[–] Whatshername TheySeeMeRowling -2 points

I agree. From what I understand many intersex athletes didn't know they were intersex until they were older or even until the tests. I sympathize with their personal situations of having their dreams taken from them for something that they can't control. It's not the same as a regular male, who was always perceived as male, competing with women.

I also don't mind separating socialization and biology in these discussions, in the vast majority of cases socialization and biology can be used interchangeably, but in the cases of intersex women they have the socialization and the same fears and traumas as any female due to the sex they were assigned.

[+] [Deleted] 32 points

"You just think Caster Semenya is a man because you think black women look like men!"

Well, if I did, then I wouldn't be complaining would I? After all, I would look at Semenya and not know the difference. Since I can see difference, that probably means that I don't think black women look like men. This could be, and I'm no expert, but this could be due to the fact that black women do not look like men.

If I, an evil terf, believe that black women look like men, I would not have noticed nor objected to Semenya's presence.

Once again, TRAs get it upside down.

I'm a black woman and I don't think black women look like men. Semenya looks like a man because she is a man. Plenty of black women have competed in sports and none of them look like men. Semenya and ll those dudes on the podium in the 800m in Rio look like dudes because they ARE DUDES.

This has nothing to do with trans anything. These are countries doing what countries will always do to get around any loophole in the rules. They're the reason athletes have to be constantly available for testing. The rewards are great, and the risk of being caught is low. Pretty much the mindset of any and all cheats.

That argument drives me nuts. As if I can't look at FloJo or Jackie Joyner Kersee or Wyomia Tyus or Wilma Rudolph or Evelyn Ashford or even Marion Jones at her most doped up and not be able to tell they are absolutely women...and Caster Semenya is not.

Thank you for saying that so clearly. Even before I peaked I was completely confused by the “it’s racism” argument, because the argument seemed to imply that being black is the same thing as being part male. But I didn’t dare question it lol.

Now I’m not confused because I know the racist implication is deliberate. They’re really out there saying that having testes is a black woman thing. Fuck them.

I no longer give a fuck about any lying, misogynist argument coming out of their lying, misogynist face holes. So much energy wasted on fending off lies from a bottomless pit of sociopathy. If this argument came from sane people we could rationally debunk it in a sane manner, but these liars are not interested in women, racism or truth. They’re interested in perpetuating a narrative that scapegoats women because we’re onto their bullshit.

Yes, the obfuscation on this issue is wild.

It seems to me the solution is to keep 2 categories, but rename them:

(1) Open (2) Protected

Anyone can compete in open. Protected is for any person who has not had the biological advantage of high testosterone during their lifetime.

This makes so much sense but you know the accusations of ‘racist transmisogyny’ etc. would fly for even suggesting it

Funnily enough: open is just the men's categories… which these men would fail at. Technically women could compete in the men's categories, but they would never even qualify, unless extreme long distance endurance sport was an Olympic even, then women could wipe the floor with men, that's it, though. But yeah, I agree, it would be cool to do it that way, but it would not validate the mediocre men, or make $$$ for corrupt countries, so… probably won't happen. Also, I feel we deserve to have women's sports be called women's sports.

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