25

In theory, I believe you should have the right to do whatever you want with your body. Even if others think it's a bad idea. Even if it IS a bad idea. Get whatever tattoos you want, where you want, piercings, hair shavings, any body mod, without fear of arrest. I don't think that means society should never judge your choices. The easiest example I can think of is Nazi tattoos on your face. Can't get a job? Tough. That said, I do think society should be open-minded, and know bigotry when you see it.

So would this include transgender surgeries and hormones? Well....in theory, yes. But I do not think the doctor has the right to perform any surgery he wants, or prescribe anything he wants, based on the request of the patient alone. Even if that patient is in distress and desperate for these treatments.

These treatments have a high complication rate that would be considered unacceptable for any other purpose besides dysphoria. Doctors are expected to perform quality surgeries that produce excellent results. They are expected to prescribe medications that produce excellent results with a minimum of negative side effects. The only exception to the rule is if the patient's body is dying due to some catastrophic circumstance. (Not "I'll kill myself if you don't treat me!").

Doctors are also expected to perform the least invasive treatments possible. They are not supposed to up-sell their patients into more elaborate, complicated, expensive treatments they could do without.

The trouble with "informed consent" is that the criterion for it is only a document, with a list of possible outcomes. I've read some of the forms- they are full of jargon that most lay people wouldn't know, and teenagers certainly wouldn't understand. It's hard to explain to even a mature person what living with a disability is like when they themselves haven't lived it. It's impossible to get a teenager to fathom what it's like. They can't understand how dealing with chronic side effects, that pile on as the years go by, will be like. So in a way, there really is no informed consent. It's like pregnancy- no, you don't know how you will feel during pregnancy until you are pregnant.

And I seriously doubt these doctors take the time to get graphic about what early onset dementia looks like. I doubt they show pictures of necrosis.

In theory, I believe you should have the right to do whatever you want with your body. Even if others think it's a bad idea. Even if it IS a bad idea. Get whatever tattoos you want, where you want, piercings, hair shavings, any body mod, without fear of arrest. I don't think that means society should *never* judge your choices. The easiest example I can think of is Nazi tattoos on your face. Can't get a job? Tough. That said, I do think society should be open-minded, and know bigotry when you see it. So would this include transgender surgeries and hormones? Well....in theory, yes. But I do not think the doctor has the right to perform any surgery he wants, or prescribe anything he wants, based on the request of the patient alone. Even if that patient is in distress and desperate for these treatments. These treatments have a high complication rate that would be considered unacceptable for any other purpose besides dysphoria. Doctors are expected to perform quality surgeries that produce excellent results. They are expected to prescribe medications that produce excellent results with a minimum of negative side effects. The only exception to the rule is if the patient's body is dying due to some catastrophic circumstance. (Not "I'll kill myself if you don't treat me!"). Doctors are also expected to perform the least invasive treatments possible. They are not supposed to up-sell their patients into more elaborate, complicated, expensive treatments they could do without. The trouble with "informed consent" is that the criterion for it is only a document, with a list of possible outcomes. I've read some of the forms- they are full of jargon that most lay people wouldn't know, and teenagers certainly wouldn't understand. It's hard to explain to even a mature person what living with a disability is like when they themselves haven't lived it. It's impossible to get a teenager to fathom what it's like. They can't understand how dealing with chronic side effects, that pile on as the years go by, will be like. So in a way, there really is no informed consent. It's like pregnancy- no, you don't know how you will feel during pregnancy until you are pregnant. And I seriously doubt these doctors take the time to get graphic about what early onset dementia looks like. I doubt they show pictures of necrosis.

11 comments

[–] WitchPlease 18 points (+18|-0)

"Do whatever you want with your body" is tricky. Self harm is doing something with one's own body, it doesn't mean it's a good thing and we should support self harm. With this gender thing doctors are throwing ethics out of the window. No doctor would ever give sharp tools for patients to carve scars in their arms, no doctor would give a gastric bypass to an anorexic patient, and yet doctors are giving harmful hormone treatment and elective surgeries to people with healthy bodies. I'm hoping for an avalanche of lawsuits in the next few years, because doctors should know better.

[–] Lumos 16 points (+16|-0)

The problem is these arguments are also used against birth control, morning after pill/plan b, and abortions.

Women in red states have had issues accessing plan b because they couldn’t find a pharmacist willing to dispense it.

I know they aren’t the same things; the treatments women need have long histories and are mostly safe, and we already know “trans medicine” is harmful. People will pretend they aren’t any different though.

I’m really not sure how to fight this battle until lawsuits and bodies start to build.

Well, the research is very solid in favor of abortion and birth control. And the objective is to safely end/avoid pregnancy. Perfectly doable.

Transition treatments are meant to make a person fool the world into thinking they are the opposite sex, or even actually ARE the opposite sex. Not doable.

[–] zephyrean 6 points (+6|-0)

The problem is these arguments are also used against birth control, morning after pill/plan b, and abortions.

Abortion at all stages and in all circumstances is beneficial to a woman's health. Genital mutilation and horse piss are not. ​There's a lot of horrific history and present reality around abortion, but the wingnut bogeyman - abortion on demand of an "immoral" "selfish" woman (when the woman doesn't want to carry and give birth to a healthy baby) - is the most ethical procedure imaginable, because the pregnancy is getting resolved one way or another, and it's always safer to do so in a medical setting, the sooner the better, without regard to the survival of the fetus.

I know they aren’t the same things

Yes, exactly. You can't make any coherent rules by dancing around knowing good from evil and inventing proxies. Eventually, you'll have to show your hand and say, no, there's no hard rule that all procedures whose name starts with a vowel described on pp.540-569, 572-574 of the Grand Medical Encyclopaedia, 14th printing, 2011-11-07 Malaga University Press, first performed when the Sun was in Capricorn, are banned (or whatever), they're banned because it's mutilation and savagery.

As for the OP,

But I do not think the doctor has the right to perform any surgery he wants, or prescribe anything he wants, based on the request of the patient alone. Even if that patient is in distress and desperate for these treatments.

I don't care about adult transes as long as women are still "at liberty" todo even more horrific shit to themselves. Women who promote the notion of breast "beauty" are 100% responsible for teen tit chops. Take that shit off insurance, keep pedophiles away from children, ban fake sex in documents, keep spaces with expectations of privacy single-sex, and REGULATE THE BANKS. When people are once again able to call potatoes and slugs gross and disgusting in public, weak-willed impressionable people will stop trying to turn themselves into potatoes and slugs.

[–] Unruly_Rose 0 points (+0|-0)

I am in 100% agreement with your comment!!!

I have to add though, I love both slugs and potatoes. There may be a reference here I'm not getting, lol.

[–] Moonstone 0 points (+0|-0)

I agree. Doctors already refuse treatment based on religious beliefs and misogyny. They don’t take women’s symptoms, pain or choices seriously

[–] Mother-of-Rats 5 points (+5|-0) Edited

This is something I’ve wrestled with myself. On the one hand, people should not be allowed to permanently damage their body for no good reason (like, if a man has an amputation fetish he shouldn’t be allowed to have his arm amputated.

BUT I am fully pro choice so I feel it would be hypocritical of me to say “abortion at any time for any reason but no surgery for you because I don’t approve”.

I think proper education is required but, as the old saying goes: you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.

In the Hippocratic oath doctors promise “First, do no harm”. Trans surgeries are demonstrably harmful so there’s a loophole there but then again, if a doctor thinks an abortion is harmful they could refuse to perform one on the same basis.

What I’d like to do is sit down with the doctors wanting to harm these patients and ask them what is kinder - finding them a therapist to help them deal with their dysphoria or selling them a lie that they will “pass” - can you imagine the amount of trauma experienced by these people when they realize they’re never going to “pass” they will ALWAYS be clockable and NOTHING they do will ever change that.

From a parsimonious point of view the most obvious solution is to reduce harm as much as possible thus therapy to deal with dysphoria is the only logical solution.

I think, until the tidal wave of fucked up-edness is over, we just have to grin and bear it. Educate, and try to protect children as best we can.

Human rights are a pain in the ass when people don’t do the things I think is best for them.

[–] DiabolicalPinkBunny 👽💕🐇 4 points (+4|-0)

Okay, so slightly off topic, but at one point I would have thought the argument "if a man has an amputation fetish he shouldn’t be allowed to have his arm amputated" would be silly, because who would do that, right? Who would cut off an arm for the sake of a look or a fetish, huh? No man would be so delusional about a kink he would cut off his own penis... But, gosh, here we are and men are cutting off the very thing they obsess about! Hoe upside down must the world be for men to ask to have their penis lopped off! I literally can't wrap my mind around it, but it's already happening!

So, to get a bit back to the topic at hand: quite obviously people can't be trusted to do with their bodies as they please.

[–] yarnfiend13 3 points (+3|-0)

What I’d like to do is sit down with the doctors wanting to harm these patients and ask them what is kinder - finding them a therapist to help them deal with their dysphoria or selling them a lie that they will “pass”

this is so true but the doctors don’t care about being kind, they care about the thousands of dollars they make from these surgeries.

[–] Unruly_Rose 2 points (+2|-0)

I personally think we need to get rid of advertising of surgeries and medications in America. The fact that this is a huge industry sets us up for problems like this. These plastic surgeons shouldn't be posting pictures on social media of girls with their breasts removed nor should they be posting advertisements for any form of elective plastic surgery (breast implants, facelifts, botox, labia plasty etc.). In my dream world we would have freely available information from a variety of trusted sources to base our medical decisions on. Like a free online resource that you can use to look up your options and do more research into treatments that can help your particular condition, and what the true ramifications of treatment are. This resource would ideally also include up-to-date information on current medical trials that people could voluntarily participate in. This way it would cut down on predatory surgeons and doctors. I can see facial reconstructive surgeries being helpful for people who have gone through horrible accidents or have deformities that are causing them extreme grief in their lives, but they should be able to truly look into what the surgeries that attempt to correct their appearance actually entail and what it takes to recover as well as success rates. Maybe in this ideal world we would have plastic surgeons that actually truly want to help the people they're operating on, not prey on their insecurities and lack of knowledge.

I know all that sounds possibly too good to be true, but I like to imagine what we could do in an ideal situation and build towards it. If we as women are able to step up into our power now, we will have the ability to make changes that we've always been told we're "naive" for considering.

[–] bumpyjerboa 0 points (+0|-0)

One thing that I think could help curtail doctors getting involved in these horrible "treatments" is greater malpractice liability. We've seen so many examples of people with botched "bottom" surgery (or surgeries that went "right" but... right is still horrific) who have no recourse because its considered "experimental" or whatever. What kind of malpractice insurance do the doctors who perform these awful procedures even have to carry, knowing there's no liability?

I like your point about how we all approve of doctors going outside the bounds of accepted medicine in those extreme circumstances where a patient is basically already dying. Being able to bring some kind of giant lawsuit against a doctor in that circumstance seems unlikely, so there's no reason for a doctor to not try anything. But I think many of the gender surgery physicians would think twice if they knew their hubristic experiments could come with a multimillion dollar judgement years down the line.