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https://twitter.com/crampell/status/1423107586266632192/photo/2

5% want to be called that. 95% do not. Some responses

latinx and latine both come from feminist organizers and queer and trans organizers in latin america and i’ll never forgive the people who’ve completed erased the origins and credit white americans for why these words exist.

The white liberal press is the only one to take this silliness on. And they did it out of ignorance of the Spanish language. I think the words you are looking for is "thank you." I certainly have no respect for the whtie liberal press, so rudely throwing all Hispanic people under the bus to look Woke. But it's been to your benefit, otherwise you'd never seen "Latinx" outside of your diary.

“Transgender and gender-nonconforming Latin Americans living in the U.S. have used the “X” as a reminder that their bodies are still experiencing a colonization invested in disciplining them to fit a standard gender identity, gender presentation, sexual orientation…”

This is academic spew, inaccessible to the common people who do not have the time or resources to ponder in sophistry.

“For this reason, it is important for us to not normalize “Latinx,” but to engage in critical reflection of how violence against LGBTQIA+ Latin Americans has been accepted by Latin American people to the point that LGBTQIA+ Latinxs have had to create a linguistic intervention…in the hopes that they can live a livable life.”

The murders have overwhelmingly taken place in Central and South America, not the US. You want to bring that murder rate down? You're going to have to go to the countries where they take place and talk to them. But nah, you're too chicken to dare do that.

How is an inaccessible and inaccurate word imposed on Americans supposed to do anything? "Latinx" is an idea that could only come from Ivory Tower charletons who don't know how to fix violence, and aren't really interested anyway.

“i don’t want to be called that though.” okay then do not self-identify that way. unlike the spanish language and gender in general, latine/x is not going to be violently imposed on people who don’t feel affirmed by its use. :) y’all gonna call me whatever i say to though.

Have you been listening? The word is now required among English speakers. Say it or be a bigot. As a civil servant I am now expected to use the word to describe all Latino and Hispanic people as a whole. The word does not make sense in Spanish OR English. I could have been asked to use "Latin" which is appropriate in English. Adding the "X" is newspeak. I am required to use a word most L&H people find offensive and I am supposed to provide service to them.

And this finger snapping, imperious "y'all gonna call me whatever I say to, though" is exactly why people have so little sympathy for TRAs of all stripes. No one will call you "Latinx" unless it's widely used, which is why you want it shoved through. So you ARE imposing it on the rest of us. And you are whatever your sex is, whether you like it or not.

You are no more important than any other Latino/a or Hispanic person. Your opinion is not more important than theirs, and if you are about to introduce a label that will be applied to all of them they have the right to push back.

I do not speak enough Spanish to read or watch the Spanish-speaking press. But it's not lost on me that activists have a much easier time getting clueless or cowardly white, Anglo elites to capitulate to this nonsense. After all, it's no skin off their noses if other Latino/a and Hispanic people feel insulted, so long as they get to be Woke.

I, however, try to do my job properly and have people I serve walk away feeling better, not worse. If TRAs expect me to prioritize their metaphysical beliefs about gender over everyone else, I know they view others as worthless peasants.

https://twitter.com/crampell/status/1423107586266632192/photo/2 5% want to be called that. 95% do not. Some responses > latinx and latine both come from feminist organizers and queer and trans organizers in latin america and i’ll never forgive the people who’ve completed erased the origins and credit white americans for why these words exist. The white liberal press is the only one to take this silliness on. And they did it out of ignorance of the Spanish language. I think the words you are looking for is "thank you." *I* certainly have no respect for the whtie liberal press, so rudely throwing all Hispanic people under the bus to look Woke. But it's been to your benefit, otherwise you'd never seen "Latinx" outside of your diary. > “Transgender and gender-nonconforming Latin Americans living in the U.S. have used the “X” as a reminder that their bodies are still experiencing a colonization invested in disciplining them to fit a standard gender identity, gender presentation, sexual orientation…” This is academic spew, inaccessible to the common people who do not have the time or resources to ponder in sophistry. > “For this reason, it is important for us to not normalize “Latinx,” but to engage in critical reflection of how violence against LGBTQIA+ Latin Americans has been accepted by Latin American people to the point that LGBTQIA+ Latinxs have had to create a linguistic intervention…in the hopes that they can live a livable life.” The murders have overwhelmingly taken place in Central and South America, not the US. You want to bring that murder rate down? You're going to have to go to the countries where they take place and talk to them. But nah, you're too chicken to dare do that. How is an inaccessible and inaccurate word imposed on Americans supposed to do anything? "Latinx" is an idea that could only come from Ivory Tower charletons who don't know how to fix violence, and aren't really interested anyway. > “i don’t want to be called that though.” okay then do not self-identify that way. unlike the spanish language and gender in general, latine/x is not going to be violently imposed on people who don’t feel affirmed by its use. :) y’all gonna call me whatever i say to though. Have you been listening? The word is now required among English speakers. Say it or be a bigot. As a civil servant I am now expected to use the word to describe all Latino and Hispanic people as a whole. The word does not make sense in Spanish OR English. I could have been asked to use "Latin" which is appropriate in English. Adding the "X" is newspeak. I am required to use a word most L&H people find offensive and I am supposed to provide service to them. And this finger snapping, imperious "y'all gonna call me whatever I say to, though" is exactly why people have so little sympathy for TRAs of all stripes. No one will call you "Latinx" unless it's widely used, which is why you want it shoved through. So you ARE imposing it on the rest of us. And you are whatever your sex is, whether you like it or not. You are no more important than any other Latino/a or Hispanic person. Your opinion is not more important than theirs, and if you are about to introduce a label that will be applied to all of them they have the right to push back. I do not speak enough Spanish to read or watch the Spanish-speaking press. But it's not lost on me that activists have a much easier time getting clueless or cowardly white, Anglo elites to capitulate to this nonsense. After all, it's no skin off their noses if other Latino/a and Hispanic people feel insulted, so long as they get to be Woke. I, however, try to do my job properly and have people I serve walk away feeling better, not worse. If TRAs expect me to prioritize their metaphysical beliefs about gender over everyone else, I know they view others as worthless peasants.

76 comments

Also, every Latino is not Hispanic, and every Hispanic is not Latino. Only persons from Latin America are Latino. Only persons with Spanish language/culture are Hispanic.

The poll acts like they're interchangeable. They're not.

It’s painfully American to use them interchangeably.

I have Spanish ancestry, including my maiden name, but to call myself Hispanic would be like appropriating minority status. Different meanings in different countries.

My dad was full Mexican and technically I'm only second generation American on that side. I grew up surrounded with Mexican culture and family. This has got to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. I can guarantee you none of my family will even have heard of this, let alone use it.

And people say it's unpronounceable in Spanish. I know some Spanish but I'm not a native speaker, and all I see when I see the word is the English pronunciation of Latin-ex.

How would one say this in Spanish?

[–] LisbonMuse 17 points Edited

Yeah that's the thing, I don't think you really can - Latino is the masculine form, but it's also the gender neutral form when there are both sexes in a group. So if you were referring to a group of females and males it would be Latinos. The X doesn't even grammatically or pronunciation-wise make sense in Spanish. It sounds like it's made for English only.

[–] bellatrixbells BoobatrixRex 4 points

Technically the X is pronounced more or less like an English H. Go figure how you shove that at the end of a word. To me this just sounds like linguistic colonization from a bunch of idiots who don't realize that not every language in the world is Englosh because they have exactly no sense of perspective.

[–] KBash 3 points Edited

The only people I knew who used it (and I don’t say this to be unkind; they were lovely people) were second or more generation, fairly well-off, young Americans who had been brought up without speaking their second language (maybe learning it in adulthood or speaking it a little bit, not really having grown up immersed in it, in a bilingual household). Their parents were usually one English and one Spanish speaker, which explains that; and they defaulted to English.

Their kids would have inevitably encountered Wokeism, and taken on the correct language.

Meanwhile, young people who grew up in a Spanish-speaking household (regardless of wealth, I’d wager, though I’m sure this especially applies to lower income households) do not say “Latinx.” They may have heard the word somewhere, but feel weird about saying it, since it’s so foreign-sounding (it really is to me, too! I lived in Mexico for years, and never once heard “Latinx”).

I have heard older Mexican feminists and other more politically aware people using latine, and seen them writing latin@. Not Latinx, though (latine makes more sense to me, phonetically; it sounds more natural. There is a lot of pre-gender theory feminist history around the word “latine”). I’ve heard an old hip guy referring to the group as “nosotras” despite all the men there, as part of a tradition of subverting the sexism of defaulting to the male group pronouns in the case of male presence (in Spanish, all pronouns except for I and you and the formal plural you are gendered, more or less).

I do think latinx has moved into Chicano culture, especially in families who have been in the United States for a long time. The Spanish spoke among American Hispanics rather than that of recent immigrants has its own flavor, color, slang, English loan words etc (whether it’s Chicanos, Puerto Ricans, Cuban-Americans, etc).

Latinx is not something I’ve heard once in Mexico, which doesn’t mean it’s not said there; but I’m guessed it would be in pretty rarefied spheres.

I'm in the South West and I've never heard anyone here use it. Just crazy genderists on Reddit and Tumblr.

As a native Spanish speaker, I refuse to use LatinX also. I can't imagine trying to explain that to my mom or grandma or imposing upon them to use it for the sake of affirming someone's gender woo.

I've studied Romance languages a little bit, and this is insane. That's just not how Spanish, French, Italian, what-have-you work. Saying "la mesa" does not mean that you think every table is literally female. Erasing gender from Spanish is disrespectful of one of the most influential languages in modern Western culture. How colonialist is it to impose woke US language on minority cultures that never asked for it and don't want it?

I'd love to see these losers try and force their gender woo into Hebrew & Arabic (the grammatical gender rules in those languages are WAY more complex than in the romance languages)

That would be hilarious! However, it might also be beneficial for them to study a complex language for two hours a day instead of pontificating about gender.

[–] bellatrixbells BoobatrixRex 4 points

When you say minority culture, you're referring to the States right ? Just making sure.

But yes, trying to erase gender in a romance language is completely insane and ridiculous, and it demonstrates how completely disconnected the woke anglophones are from other perspectives. They apparently have no understanding of how things work for people outside of their little bubble. It's downright insane.

Do they think that they will succesfully change the language of all (300M?) Hispanics in Latin America ? 😂

Yes, the US specifically. Although I wonder if and how left-wing academics in Latin America have attempted to promote woke Newspeak. It's so patronizing.

[–] bellatrixbells BoobatrixRex 0 points

They probably have to an extent since it happens anyways. It's very annoying here how they try to impose all those English concepts in French. It just doesn't work. Too much time online.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

I'm seeing these bizarre readings of grammatical gender crop up all over the place these days. It's so ignorant and insulting.

On the other hand, I also see people fawning over languages that have pronouns unmarked by grammatical gender. Finnish is the favorite example -- and Finland is often #1 in the world with regard to social measures of equality between nen and women. Thing is, the Finns overthrew Swedish colonization, and the culture they created in their freed country was based in peasant culture, where both men and women worked. So bourgeois femininity did not define notions of womanhood.

And what about Turkish, which as far as I know, also has non-gendered pronouns? Women in Turkey are protesting the dismantling of legal protections against domestic abuse, and the femicide rate is heartbreakingly high.

Sorry for the long rant. I'm so burned out on stupid approaches to language and the even more stupid belief that tweaking language can magically solve social problems.

I really appreciate your insight--that's all new information to me.

bourgeois femininity did not define notions of womanhood

The image of mid-century US white, middle-class, femininity is, I think, oversimplified to begin with, and it's also highly specific to one unique time and place. TRAs both appropriate traditions of gender expression from other cultures to justify their claims, and try to impose their own model of gender on other cultures.

Yes. I think people don't realize that by completely conflating middle-class women with popular images of bourgeois femininity, they end of caricaturing and even dehumanizing the women.

We can talk about things such as images, "the trappings of bourgeois femininity" (a phrase I know I've keaned on hard in my student days), attributes, privileges... but we shouldn't just equate people with those things.

"...linguistic intervention…in the hopes that they can live a livable life"

Without the right letter in a word, life isn't worth living...said only the smallest fraction of not well human beings.

y’all gonna call me whatever i say to though.

Nah. I will call you a spoiled brat who has clearly never actually faced real hardship, though.

[–] Malcriada 17 points Edited

I refuse to believe "latinx" came from Latin America. As other users have pointed out, it's basically unpronounceable to native Spanish speakers, and I think Latinos' rejection of it speaks for itself. It also speaks of an anglophone sensibility being pushed onto romance languages, with a basic lack of understanding that the masculine form is also the neutral form.

The first records of the term Latinx appear in the 21st century,[21] but there is no certainty as to its first occurrence.[22] According to Google Trends, it was first seen online in 2004,[10][23][24] and first appeared in academic literature "in a Puerto Rican psychological periodical to challenge the gender binaries encoded in the Spanish language."[22] Contrarily, it has been claimed that usage of the term "started in online chat rooms and listservs in the 1990s" and that its first appearance in academic literature was in the "Fall 2004 volume of the journal Feministas Unidas".[25] In the U.S. it was first used in activist and LGBT circles as a way to expand on earlier attempts at gender-inclusive forms of the grammatically masculine Latino, such as Latino/a and Latin@.[23] Between 2004 and 2014, Latinx did not attain broad usage or attention.[10]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latinx#Origins

And there's this:

** As of 2018 the term Latinx was used nearly exclusively in the United States.**[29] Manuel Vargas writes that people from Latin America ordinarily would not think of themselves using the term unless they reside in the United States.[29] The term was added to the Merriam-Webster English dictionary[30] in 2018, as it continued to grow in popularity in the United States,[31] and to the Oxford English Dictionary in 2019.[13]

[–] GrimaceGravis 10 points Edited

I will admit, I had fallen into the LATINX trap until very recently. It is demeaning and dehumanizing to actual Latin American people. I also do not like the word HISPANIC at all, because for me, personally, it makes it sound like Central and South America are still owned by Spain. I have looked at my ancestral family tree and when it comes to the word HISPANIC, it brings up feelings of anger. When one-third of your family tree pretty much just terrorized two-thirds of your family tree, you would feel some type of way too. I personally refer to myself as Latina, because that is what I am. Being born in Central America at the tail end of a 36-year civil war, to only be denied US citizenship for 12 years (one of my parents is a US-born citizen), the kids who try to impose the 'LATINX' term do not know what real hardship is. They do not know what real fear is, and they sure as hell do not have the pride and joy that arises within me when someone recognizes me as a Latina and does not refer to me as a 'HISPANIC' or 'LATINX' person. Simon Bolivar pretty much sums up my feelings with this:

"The hate that the peninsula inspired in us is greater than the ocean between us"%.

Do these kids know who would actually like to live a livable life in Central and South America? Let me give you a hint: IT'S ACTUAL WOMEN. You know, women who are more likely to be forcibly disappeared and then murdered in Guatemala, or more likely to spend 30 years in prison over a miscarriage, abortion, or stillbirth in El Salvador...you know...those people. You know, women in Colombia that weren't considered citizens until the 1930s, and how Ecuador has a human trafficking problem that affects women and children....you know, those people who these kids pretend to care about by using the term 'LATINX'. Women in Central and South America are the ones who are going to be hit with poverty the hardest, who are going to be hit with violence, abuse, trafficking, and murder.

I don't give a rat's ass on what TRAs are trying to push on the Latin community in the US. When our backs are against the wall, we push back hard.

%Comes from Bolivar's 'Jamaica Letter', written in 1815.

[–] Jade -1 points

Ah Simon Bolivar. Conveniently omitting that the people in “the peninsula” are all descendants of the peasants, farmers and shopkeepers who never went to America, had nothing to do with America, and were just trying to get by under an imposed government (absolute monarchy) that extorted them for taxes, whilst actually every “s-wOrD” complaining Latin American has colonizer blood.

Politician inciting hate against harmelss group one ocean apart to manipulate and instigate a fake pride in his own population for political gain. How original.

If they wanted a gender neutral term, people have been using "Latin" for ages. But the wokies just had to make up their own, badly spelled variant and force it on Spanish speaking people like the little colonialists they are.

Kind of how they can't use the word "folks" and instead use "folx". Can't roll my eyes hard enough at that.

[+] [Deleted] 9 points
[–] Lilith 7 points Edited

I don't know how Latinx is pronounced and I have no desire to find out. I won't be using it. I will use Latino. I'm glad to know that doing so supports the Latino community and pisses off the Qxeers.

it's an english word, we can't pronounce it in spanish. Here in my country the inclusive word would be "latine" which you can pronounce... but most people hate it as well.

there was already a gender neutral english word and it's Latin. It's bizarre they didn't try to popularize it.

Yeah I don't get it, it's like they only know the basics of Spanish but never got to advanced lol

Latine would work except for the irritating issues of accents, and everyone pronouncing vowels differently from region to region. Oh and ah sound distinct enough, but eh not so much from ah. Unless it is pronounced "ee," but that's not what I've heard.

but eh not so much from ah

Umm sorry I strongly disagree, eh and ah sound extremely different. Accents and different pronunciations are not that big of a deal in Spanish as it's in English. We can understand each other pretty good, regardless of the country and region.

Wokes in most latin american countries use e instead of x. If we want to mention everyone we say "todos" or "todas", the woke way would be "todes" or "todxs", we can pronounce "todes" but not "todxs".

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