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A while ago I was watching the OA with my fiancé. Long story short, there's a TIF character. Like many men, my fiancé cannot tell GNC women from men. I always like to point "that's not a man, that's a tomboy" because he's always so surprised and it's funny.
So about halfway through the first season of the OA, I pointed out the TIF character Michelle and asked my fiancé "do you think that's a male or a female?"
The character of Michelle is a TIF, but aside from short hair she's clearly a typical female. No hormones, no surgery. Just a girl. But my fiancé answered "that's a boy, of course."
Surprise, it's a girl! But what happened next really stuck with me.
After the usual "no way, that's a girl?" part of the conversation, he said something interesting. "Maybe that's a girl, but some people look more like the opposite."
"What do you mean? She has short hair, that's it."
"Maybe she has short hair, but there's something in the face that looks male. Some people are born like that."
"I guarantee you, if she were to grow out her hair out and change her clothes, she'd look like a 100% normal beautiful feminine girl."
"I don't know about that. Some people are different."
"Some people are born androgynous, that's true. But I guarantee you, that actress is a completely normal female."

Sure enough in season 2, we're introduced to an alternate reality version of Michelle where she isn't trans. She has long hair and she looks 100% like a normal, "typical" girl. No CGI, no facial prosthetics or anything. Just the hair.
"I told you so."

I've known for a while now that so many men have difficulty correctly gendering even mildly GNC women, as many here have also noticed. But something about our conversation made me connect some dots in my mind.
I think this is part of the reason trans is exploding in popularity with young girls. When men, and to a lesser extent people in general, see a GNC woman, they don't really see women.
That is, when they see a girl with short hair, they don't see a "normal girl." They see a biologically exceptional masculine female.
When a woman or girl has short hair, they don't see "normal female with short hair." Something about the simple act of cutting one's hair, especially if you don't wear makeup, promotes you into the category of so damn masculine they can't ever imagine you able to grow your hair out and live as a normal woman.
They see average, phenotypically normal GNC women as so physically, biologically exceptional that transition no longer feels drastic.

This confirms my own experience before I desisted. It always frustrated me that by the simple act of cutting my hair and putting on a baggy t-shirt, I went from being hounded by men with romantic intentions to being regarded not just as a lesbian, not just as a woman who chose to present myself to the world in a certain way, but to being assumed to have been born into the category of "ugly"/masculine female and never having had the experience living as a feminine woman, nor having the capacity to do so.

Clearly the concept of womanhood has become so artificial and pornified, men are losing the ability to even recognize normal women as female. When they see a woman or girl without the artificial woman costume, they don't think "normal woman/girl with short hair." They think "jesus christ what an unfortunate, hermaphroditic creature. She'll never be able to live a normal life as a woman. Let the poor thing chop her breasts off, she's basically halfway male to begin with."
Even if that same woman would have been considered an absolute knockout with long hair.

GNC women are not "freaks." Some of us are born with androgynous features, but the vast majority of GNC women are just completely typical, conventionally attractive women. We just have short hair, that's really it. Short hair, and we didn't put on makeup. We're not biological aberrations, the ability of our society to tell male from female has just gotten so fucking bad, we don't even consider normal women to be fully female anymore.

Edit: There are women who are born physically androgynous or masculine, and that's beautiful too! We really just need to start embracing and celebrating gender non-conforming women of all kinds.

A while ago I was watching the OA with my fiancé. Long story short, there's a TIF character. Like many men, my fiancé cannot tell GNC women from men. I always like to point "that's not a man, that's a tomboy" because he's always so surprised and it's funny. So about halfway through the first season of the OA, I pointed out the TIF character Michelle and asked my fiancé "do you think that's a male or a female?" The character of Michelle is a TIF, but aside from short hair she's clearly a typical female. No hormones, no surgery. Just a girl. But my fiancé answered "that's a boy, of course." Surprise, it's a girl! But what happened next really stuck with me. After the usual "no way, that's a girl?" part of the conversation, he said something interesting. "Maybe that's a girl, but some people look more like the opposite." "What do you mean? She has short hair, that's it." "Maybe she has short hair, but there's something in the face that looks male. Some people are born like that." "I guarantee you, if she were to grow out her hair out and change her clothes, she'd look like a 100% normal beautiful feminine girl." "I don't know about that. Some people are different." "Some people *are* born androgynous, that's true. But I guarantee you, that actress is a completely normal female." Sure enough in season 2, we're introduced to an alternate reality version of Michelle where she isn't trans. She has long hair and she looks 100% like a normal, "typical" girl. No CGI, no facial prosthetics or anything. Just the hair. "I told you so." I've known for a while now that so many men have difficulty correctly gendering even mildly GNC women, as many here have also noticed. But something about our conversation made me connect some dots in my mind. I think this is part of the reason trans is exploding in popularity with young girls. When men, and to a lesser extent people in general, see a GNC woman, they don't really see *women.* That is, when they see a girl with short hair, they don't see a "normal girl." They see a *biologically exceptional masculine female.* When a woman or girl has short hair, they don't see "normal female with short hair." Something about the simple act of cutting one's hair, especially if you don't wear makeup, promotes you into the category of *so damn masculine they can't ever imagine you able to grow your hair out and live as a normal woman.* They see *average, phenotypically normal GNC women* as so physically, biologically exceptional that *transition no longer feels drastic.* This confirms my own experience before I desisted. It always frustrated me that by the simple act of cutting my hair and putting on a baggy t-shirt, I went from being hounded by men with romantic intentions to being regarded not just as a lesbian, not just as a woman who *chose* to present myself to the world in a certain way, but to being assumed to have been *born into the category of "ugly"/masculine female and never having had the experience living as a feminine woman, nor having the capacity to do so.* Clearly the concept of womanhood has become so artificial and pornified, men are losing the ability to even recognize normal women as female. When they see a woman or girl without the artificial woman costume, they don't think "normal woman/girl with short hair." They think "jesus christ what an unfortunate, hermaphroditic creature. She'll never be able to live a normal life as a woman. Let the poor thing chop her breasts off, she's basically halfway male to begin with." **Even if that same woman would have been considered an absolute knockout with long hair.** GNC women are not "freaks." Some of us are born with androgynous features, but the vast majority of GNC women are just completely typical, conventionally attractive women. *We just have short hair,* that's really it. Short hair, and we didn't put on makeup. We're not biological aberrations, the ability of our society to tell male from female has just gotten so fucking bad, we don't even consider normal women to be fully female anymore. Edit: There *are* women who are born physically androgynous or masculine, and that's beautiful too! We really just need to start embracing and celebrating gender non-conforming women of all kinds.

47 comments

As a person who became an adult in the early 80s, I literally cannot comprehend this. I've never met a man who can't tell a woman is a woman. In the 80s we all had short hair and we all had many males interested in us,

[–] platypus [OP] 23 points Edited

That's so sad. I'm a little younger but I spent a portion of my childhood in the 80s. Recently I rewatched Ghost and was disappointed to find myself feeling refreshed to see a short haired, albeit completely feminine and hetero woman on the screen in a mainstream blockbuster movie, portrayed as attractive and conventional. Have we really regressed so far!?

It's true, though. Younger men can't see short-haired women anymore. Maybe men of your generation remember what women really look like, but that's becoming more and more rare. They're so desensitized to hair extensions and big fake asses and lip fillers, normal women don't even look female anymore.

Edit: But just to be clear, the romantic interest from men actually doesn't go away. At least, it didn't for me. I never stopped having men be sexually interested in me, no matter what I did with my hair and clothes. I just also had men treating me like an unfortunate beast and assuming other men weren't finding me attractive.

Same, I came of age then too, and can’t imagine men being so blind/stupid/brainwashed by porn that they actually can’t tell.

How do these men cope with seeing men from previous centuries with long hair? 🙄

I don't actually think this is porn. This is all media in general. Tv, film, Instagram, commercials, ads, everything.

Short hair = boy, Long hair = girl

Nowadays we get conditioned into believing this since the day we're born.

[–] womenopausal witchbabe🧙‍♀️👶 14 points

I've had guys hit on my when my head was shaved. When I had a mohawk. When I shaved off one side entirely right down my centre-parting.

I mean that's the thing, you do still get male interest. That part actually doesn't change. You just also get men assuming you're some sort of unfortunate mangirl creature. Or that's how it was for me, anyway.

[–] womenopausal witchbabe🧙‍♀️👶 3 points

It's a mixed blessing. On one hand you rule out a whole bunch of stupid dickheads, but on the other hand you get guys looking for a trophy girlfriend to fit their look or who think you're going to be WiLd aNd KerAzY.

You'd think they never heard of Annie Lennox, or watched Dr Who (Tegan).

I don't think I've ever been misgendered in my whole life, whether I had short or long hair.

As someone even older, I cannot comprehend this either. It's totally alien and bizarre to me and to everyone I know.

My mother's generation came of age in the 1940s and ended up as the proverbial "1950s American housewives." All had short hair. My grandmothers' generation all had short hair in the 1920s and 30s. No one ever thought they were men.

I've had short hair most of my life; in the 80s I even shaved my head or wore my hair clipped on the sides and short spikes about one inch in length on the top, So did many of my female friends. No one thought we were boys or men.

My mother, one of my sisters and many other women I know went completely bald due to chemotherapy. No one thought they were men.

Many women in the post-menopausal years lose a lot of our hair. Some get pretty bald. No one ceases being able to tell such older women apart from men as a result.

I've always had lots of guy friends with hair longer than mine. From the late 1960s into the early 2000s, many guys in the US and UK wore their hair shoulder-length. Just a few years ago lots of men were wearing the top knots known as "man buns."

Today a guy from the cable company came to my house to do a repair. He had hair well past his shoulders in a pony tail. The guy mowing my neighbor's lawn I can see out my window at this moment has free-flowing messy long locks like Dave Grohl and Eddie Vedder.

OP, I don't think that what might be true of your BF can be applied to most men, or even to "many men."

This also explains why men think they can put on the costume and pass as real women.

[–] [Deleted] Oh Dear... 25 points Edited

I noticed this too! I've always had a fairly androgynous face sans makeup, but my long hair placed me firmly in the category of 'woman'. When I shaved my head, stopped wearing makeup etc I now get pitying looks and "oh dear"s from a lot of traditional males in my family. It's like they see me as some third sex or something.

E: I will add that it's been incredibly liberating though. I feel like I hid behind my long hair almost. It afforded me a chance to attempt soft femininity or a curtain to cover my face. When I shaved it I felt like I couldn't hide anymore as weird as that sounds, and I feel so much more comfortable not having to play the quiet, feminine young woman

Yes, this is exactly what I mean! It's like when your hair is long and you wear "woman clothes" they can't perceive you possibly appearing as anything other than a "feminine woman," and the second you make the smallest switch in your presentation you're transformed into an entirely different breed of human.

[–] [Deleted] Oh Dear... 12 points

It's certainly not everyone - I've had some people treat me with more respect, treat me the same or even like me more because of the changes to my physical appearance but!

The men who view us as some kind of third sex for being androgynous or masculine in appearance seem to usually be the type of men that only treat attractive women as though they're human. Of course they don't even believe that, but as we are gnc they see no need in even pretending to respect us.

I definitely relate to this. I've been wearing short hair for 5 years now, most of my adult life, and I can garantee the majority of males don't consider me an actual girl they could get together with.

Which is great, since it pushes the mysoginysts away. On the other hand I've heard from second hand sources men feeling confused by being attracted to me. It's like "she's actually quite attractive", or "thought she was a lesbian!!", Or "she has a different vibe, but I like it".

And this confusion doesn't stop just at my looks, but also applies my personality. I'm petite, my voice is pretty high, but even so I can come across as "aggressive", "angry", "impertinent" just because I don't aim to please anyone in social settings. People are put off by me. If I was a male people wouldn't even be bothered by my behaviour I bet.

It's like just cutting my hair puts me in a different category of girl. One there's not worthy for the traditional relationship but is there to satisfy some messed up fetish. I've realized even the more toxic male will have some messed up fetish about shot haired/GNC women, because they want to sexualize us all the same. At the same time a GNC girl is more likely to be treated like a freak, like I'm being openly confrontational by not just following gender stereotypes.

It's like they say. Men don't like women, they like femininity and every gender like behavior that comes with it.

I was actually noticing a few weeks ago, reading a comedy article online while bored, it involved the female author of some self-help book. And the writer was picking on her haircut. It wasn’t some glamorous haircut, it was a practical one. But the writer acted like it was just, like, so ugly and terrible. Like this short, practical haircut (she was a wife and mother) was not only ugly, but unfeminine and made her look even more mannish.

And it occurs to me now, that when it comes to haircuts, and well any other aspect of a person’s appearance, women’s threshold for “bad” is so much lower than it is for men. What’s a bad haircut for a man? Can you even think of one that isn’t just in “outlandish” territory? Whereas a bad haircut for a woman is anything that isn’t gorgeous and well-maintained.

Being a woman visible in public is so hard to keep up with, that it’s easy to just give up and want to be something else. A few days ago I had a virtual doctors appointment and when I see myself on the screen, I just felt so bad. I’m aging and that’s natural, right? So why do I feel like shit? Because I’m supposed to. I have a skin problem that I can’t keep under control. For a guy, people just look at him and think “Oh, he’s just got that kind of skin” and move on. As long as he doesn’t smell he’s good. For me, I get so embarrassed I can’t leave the house. I feel like all eyes are on me, and I’m failing.

Failing at what? Being.

Just walking around. Being seen. Knowing I’m being judged for being physically imperfect. It would be so much easier if I were a man.

The flip side is true as well, especially with younger men. They get so blinded by what they read as sexual cues (long hair, makeup, clothing) they often have trouble telling who is male or female. Not that surprising I guess though, because many can't tell when a woman is wearing makeup or if filters are being used on a photo...

This is why I'm so critical of the cosmetic industry and plastic surgery. I really think it's warping our brains and our perception of the human form. The female form, in particular. Little boys are imprinting on these cartooning, exaggerated images and we're really starting to see the damage it's doing to society.

I've mentioned this before, but does anyone else remember those celebrity face warp videos?
As the faces flash by, the made-up female faces begin to look like bug-eyed aliens, and the non-made-up natural male faces begin to look like squint-eyed ogres.
IMO, this is what cosmetic alteration does to our brains. When we become accustomed to made-up female faces, our brains acclimate to it and natural female faces literally appear warped and monstrous.

'When they see a woman or girl without the artificial woman costume, they don't think "normal woman/girl with short hair." They think "jesus christ what an unfortunate, hermaphroditic creature. She'll never be able to live a normal life as a woman. Let the poor thing chop her breasts off, she's basically halfway male to begin with."'

Yes, this!

My hobbies are mostly athletic, so when I was in grad school, there was very little motivation to leave the house in anything but athleisure/comfortable clothes. So many people met me in those circumstances that this became their fixed image of me in their minds. On special occasions, I would show up in dress clothes and it blew some people's minds.

Men treat me 1000000% better as a gnc women than the reverse. I am more respected and taking seriously that I would be if I was femenine. It's just so depressing....

[–] PGTips4Lyfe 2 points Edited

Men are almost universally shit to me so I have to disagree on that. Maybe I'm just not gnc or "unattractive" enough (I have long hair and am conventionally attractive but I never wear make up or women's clothes, I think it has to do with being small too maybe?)

yeah at the moment women are more attracted to me than men in general so it could be that. I am very butch to the point people mistake me for a men daily so probably it isn't the same situation.

Yeah at this point I realize that men deal with their heterosexual attraction to me by being shit to me. Men are such garbage. I can't even. I am of a mind its both that they are mad they can't have me and believe this is how courtship to women works (i.e. the negging stuff.)

I used to crossplay a lot back in the day and people would legitimately think I was a dude because the makeup I used was minimal in comparison to other crossplayers. Fascinating stuff.

[–] OneStarWolf 7 points Edited

Gender stereotypes are legit harmful because of things like this. The fact that the gender cult wants everyone to double down on these stereotypes and even teach it to children (Barbies are girls, GI Joe are boys!), is so horribly regressive and damaging.

It’s no wonder thousands of teen girls are now desperately trying to opt out of the “woman” label, going as far as taking cross sex hormones and major surgery. If your constantly presented definition of woman are of a Barbie Kardashian Karen Sex hole Baby-maker, then of course no one would want that (except as a fetish fuel for AGP TiMs, of course). It’s fucking dystopian.

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