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44 comments

[–] actualdyke 62 points (+62|-0) Edited

lol one of the funniest things about this whole debate is seeing how quickly liberals drop their performative support for Muslims as soon as i said Muslims do not want to violate the rules of their religion to satisfy peoples gender delusions. what's even funnier is that this is basically just two made up religions butting heads - "MY religion says i cant undress in front of women!" "oh yeah well MY religion says i'm a real man, not a woman!"

either way, I think this is a topic that has the potential to peak people en masse, like prisons and sports. I don't think the general normie public really understands how much trans activism inherently violates everyone else's rights until they're seeing it play out in front of them, and if there's one thing Americans love its freedom of religion and protected religious rights, so it'll be interesting to see how this will play out if the issue of islam vs. gender religion goes viral

[–] Omina_Sentenziosa 25 points (+25|-0) Edited

one of the funniest things about this whole debate is seeing how quickly liberals drop their performative support for Muslims as soon as i said Muslims do not want to violate the rules of their religion to satisfy peoples gender delusions

Right? They are all a bunch of hypocrites swapping a pet project for another one. Supporting Muslims is out, so they are not doing it anymore. What' s hot at the moment is validating wo/men in drag!

[–] actualdyke 24 points (+24|-0)

right it's like a hierarchy of wokeism. of COURSE muslims should have the right to practice their religion as they see it without being discriminated against - unless it's a part of their religion that ~invalidates~ trans people, who are at the very top of the pyramid

[–] Archie 3 points (+3|-0)

Interesting how it's kind of the opposite of what conservatives do. Wokes drop support of group they supported if a group they like more is opposed to them. Conservatives fake support of a group they hate if a groupe they hate more is opposed to them (like when they fake being pro-women when they support anti muslim legislation).

We need new political parties...

[–] Researcher1536 22 points (+22|-0) Edited

That was my first thought. The wokes will be all "ohhh uhhhh ahhh hrrrmmm ummmm" about this 🤣

[–] actualdyke 50 points (+50|-0)

I actually did I thought experiment on this one time - posted a real story on AITA about a muslim female friend who was told off for being transphobic for not removing her hijab in front of a male. of course, the post was removed within minutes for poking the trans bear, but within those minutes ALL the comments were calling her a terf, transphobe, delegitimizating her religious concerns, etc. I just really want this debate to go mainstream bc I want everyone to see how quickly these people will abandon their other performative virtue signal is in favour of Big Trans lol

[–] Jade 6 points (+6|-0)

Was she your friend? I remember the text being posted here, that she said she “even paid extra to have female-only waiting staff” that night!

[–] OneStarWolf 11 points (+11|-0)

this is basically just two made up religions butting heads - "MY religion says i cant undress in front of women!" "oh yeah well MY religion says i'm a real man, not a woman!"

Perfect!

freedom of religion and protected religious rights

It’s not so much about freedom as Christian supremacy though.

[–] CornflakeGrrrl 39 points (+39|-0)

I will be VERY interested to see how this ultimately plays out. On the one hand, I think his religious beliefs (which I don't agree with but that's beside the point) are pretty clearly sincerely held. I don't think it's likely he can be painted as someone who is just using religion as an excuse for "transphobia." Also, Muslims just are more sympathetic on this sort of thing than say, Mormons, because Muslims face a lot of discrimination and are seen as more marginalized. So, he's a sympathetic plaintiff in that regard.

On the other hand, the fact that the guard is a TIF and doesn't appear to be getting some kind of sexual thrill from strip searching men (although...maybe?) makes this case less disturbing on a visceral level than if a TIM were conducting strip searches of female inmates.

My initial reaction was: how big of an asshole do you have to be to refuse a person, any person, this kind of extremely modest request? All he wanted was to not be searched by, or in front of, a biologically female guard. There was a male guard right there. Who fucking cares? Not everything is about your fragile, narcissistic identity. JFC! This man is an inmate, she is a guard. In this particular instance, she has all the power. Get over yourself.

[–] ifelifelse 22 points (+22|-0)

On the other hand, the fact that the guard is a TIF and doesn't appear to be getting some kind of sexual thrill from strip searching men (although...maybe?) makes this case less disturbing on a visceral level than if a TIM were conducting strip searches of female inmates.

I agree that this TIF is less disturbing than it would be if it was a TIM strip searching women.

But once again everyone is forced to play pretend in order to to uphold a TIP’s gender identity. That’s what I think she gets out of it: she has the power to make him uncomfortable and go along with her narcissistic fantasy even though he doesn’t believe it.

I think that what gender ideology is doing to women and girls and LGB is awful and I choose to focus on us, but I am also appalled that this guy’s sincerely held religious beliefs are being violated for something so selfish and stupid, and that he’s being gaslit just like the rest of us.

[–] CornflakeGrrrl 6 points (+6|-0)

I agree. Really disgusting. Exercising power over someone to make them feel small, especially when they are naked and vulnerable, is grotesque.

[–] OneStarWolf 12 points (+12|-0)

Totally agree. I'm not sure how the higher courts will rule on this, because as someone said earlier, it's essentially the clashing of one religious belief vs another religious belief. I hope the Muslim inmate would win since his religious beliefs are actually more entrenched into our constitution over gender woo at the moment. But we'll see...

[–] vulvapeople 9 points (+9|-0) Edited

Islam is recognized as a religion that requires accommodation in the prison system. "Gender identity" is classed as a fuzzy civil rights issue (that has never been legislated federally) and not as a religion. The courts should side with the inmate if the judges involved are at all honest in their legal reasoning, but there are many trans-pandering judges out there right now who have given up all reason and honesty to give TRAs what they want.

[–] CornflakeGrrrl 2 points (+2|-0)

Oh God. Now I am picturing Chance Scragglio saying "why yes Justice Barnett, I think it's preeeeeetttty clear that the founders believed that the federal government should compel people to speak pronouns that align with self-chosen gender identity, even when it violates a person's sincerely held religious beliefs."

[–] CornflakeGrrrl 3 points (+3|-0)

I think it's his religious beliefs vs the prison's interests in having uniform policies and applying them in a non-discriminatory way. The prison's argument is: the TIF is legally a man and we can't selectively decide that she isn't just because of his religious views. But that seems like a weak argument. In prisons, a lot of constitutional claims come down to how difficult is it for the state to accommodate the religion. Here, it seems fairly simple: this guard can't perform strip searches on Muslim inmates. Idk, not my area of expertise but I think he's got a decent chance of prevailing eventually.

[–] WAHF 2 points (+2|-0)

I honestly don’t get how people see this differently that I do, lol. Nobody should have the right to see other people naked. But people should have the right not to be seen naked by those of the opposite sex.

Anyone who insists they should have the right to see unwilling people of the opposite sex naked is a predator who cannot be trusted.

Sex, gender identity, location, whatever, is immaterial.

The fact that this woman stuck around to watch even after her requested a male makes her a sexual predator, no different than any other to me.

[–] zephyrean 9 points (+10|-1) Edited

the fact that the guard is a TIF and doesn't appear to be getting some kind of sexual thrill from strip searching men (although...maybe?)

Female guards sexually assaulted male Muslim prisoners at Guantanamo.

edit: She sexually assaulted him. It's no longer about risk, like "should women be allowed in men's bathrooms" or "should female guards work in men's prisons". It is no longer a matter of discussion if she might be more or less likely to sexually assault than a male trans, because she's done it. She should be seeing the inside of a jail cell for a long time.

[–] CornflakeGrrrl 3 points (+3|-0)

Where are you getting that from? The WOLF article just said she was present while a male guard searched him. While gross and disturbing, that would not be considered sexual assault by any legal definition. Or is there additional information you are referring to?

Regardless, I wasn't disputing that a female prison guard is capable of sexually assaulting a male inmate. I just said this instance didn't appear to be about sexual gratification, based on what WOLF reported.

[–] starsstorm 7 points (+7|-0)

The amount of asshole this person is and the kind of control issues they have is pretty disturbing.

[–] Galko 6 points (+6|-0)

I think that's where the hole in the case will be. They won't have to think about the gender-woo because she wasn't needed when the male guard came to do the search. She stayed there as a power trip. The courts will grab that aspect only and move on.

[–] CornflakeGrrrl 1 points (+1|-0)

I have not read the legal decision but I don't think that's clear. It's very possible the prison requires 2 guards to be present. Regardless, it wouldn't have been hard to either look away or get another male guard.

[–] CornflakeGrrrl 3 points (+3|-0)

Anyone who chooses to be a prison guard probably shouldn't be allowed to be one. Maybe an exception for women who want to work in women's prisons assuming they are willing to protect the inmates from male guards. But yeah, this woman seems like a monster.

I put it here instead of one of the Women's circles because it's actually a TIF prison guard who forced a Muslim male to be naked in front of her.

I'm no fan of religion, but some people are, and in the US you are Constitutionally guaranteed those protections. And unless the Constitution was rewritten since the last time I checked, there is NO protection for special gender feels.

[–] CornflakeGrrrl 10 points (+10|-0)

It's an interesting case; thanks for sharing. Totally agree. One thing though is that prisoners are afforded a lower level of protection, even regarding religion. They, of course, still have constitutional free exercise rights, but courts also afford prisons more leeway in terms of the management and policies of running the prison. I only point that out to say, it's possible that a ruling in this case would not be applicable in other settings.

[–] f_by_nature 22 points (+22|-0)

To paraphrase that great quote "Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins":

Your right to self-identify ends where my bodily autonomy begins.

or something

[–] ArmyofMe 10 points (+10|-0)

Maybe since this shit is now happening to men they will finally listen.

Yeah, I have hope that this will peak people. White men, at least liberal ones, are more likely to be sympathetic to a black man than a non-feminine woman.

[–] WAHF 10 points (+10|-0)

It is disgusting that this woman forced this man to be naked in front of her to show him she could. Absolute power corrupts.

I would not be a little bit surprised if thousands of creepy incels declare themselves transwomen and apply for jobs at prisons when they figure out it means they’ll get to strip search unwilling prisoners.

[–] OneStarWolf 9 points (+9|-0)

I imagine there's been quite the peak in TiM's applying for female prison guard positions lately... /shudder

[–] sunhatpat 6 points (+6|-0)

Male Muslim prisoners in California have argued that their religion does not allow them to be judged by a female judge, or represented by a female attorney, or, (and this is reaching, IMO) treated by a female physician. To my knowledge, those so-called "rights" are not respected by the California penal system. But these inmates DO have the right to observe their religious holiday of Ramadan (no eating until after sundown) and must be offered an alternative when pork is on the menu. It seems to me that there are varying degrees of religious rights. Bodily autonomy and bodily integrity, and privacy, for that matter, should be respected, especially when it is relatively easy to do so. But gee, all those rights are trivialized when it comes to respecting WOMEN, whether it be about abortion, birth control, or having to bunk with males in custody. It will indeed be fascinating to see how this plays out.

[–] vulvapeople 6 points (+6|-0)

This case happened in Wisconsin, which, I assume, doesn't have the same anti-human pro-trans laws that California has.

It seems to me the case should hinge on whether male Muslim inmates in those prisons are required to be stripsearched or otherwise seen naked by female guards. I'd guess they normally get an exemption based on religion, and, if they do, this TIF should be treated as a woman for the purposes of respecting the inmate's religion-based rights.

WHY do these cases always have to be on religious grounds instead of just common sense.

Male and female are separated in prison for a reason. Women should not be searching men. I don't care WHAT she thinks she is -- giving legal status to delusional people is a mistake. WHY are we giving paperwork to a woman that says she is male? She is not male. She was conceived female and will die female.

Imagine her trying to battle men if a prison riot broke out.

[–] Texture 4 points (+4|-0) Edited

Does a person have a right to perceive other people the way she perceives them?

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