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If the transgender movement had drawn clear lines in the sand, that they were not willing to cross:

  • no one is forced to use certain pronouns for transgendered people
  • the words men and women clearly assigned based on sex
  • no medicalisation whatsoever of minors
  • protection of women only spaces/categories (shelters, changing rooms, sports, prisons,...)
  • no changing of sex on legal documents
  • chosing medical transition as a last resort
  • accepting that hetero/homosexuality are clearly linked to sex and not gender (while of course sexual attraction based on gender expression would not be discriminated against either)

While at the same time they would be very actively promoting acceptance of transgender identity in society. Working for protections of trans people, representation of trans people, mental health support, ...

Where would you be on the trans issue then?

I personally would definitely be an active supporter. Particularly because I would see it as a movement that is helpful in weakening gender restrictions, which I would love.

If the transgender movement had drawn clear lines in the sand, that they were not willing to cross: - no one is forced to use certain pronouns for transgendered people - the words men and women clearly assigned based on sex - no medicalisation whatsoever of minors - protection of women only spaces/categories (shelters, changing rooms, sports, prisons,...) - no changing of sex on legal documents - chosing medical transition as a last resort - accepting that hetero/homosexuality are clearly linked to sex and not gender (while of course sexual attraction based on gender expression would not be discriminated against either) While at the same time they would be very actively promoting acceptance of transgender identity in society. Working for protections of trans people, representation of trans people, mental health support, ... **Where would you be on the trans issue then?** I personally would definitely be an active supporter. Particularly because I would see it as a movement that is helpful in weakening gender restrictions, which I would love.

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If none of that had happened, then women and children would not be under threat, and I would not feel a need to actively fight against the transgender movement. I would still find transgenderism inherently insulting to women (implying we amount to clothing, makeup and a couple of bulges on the chest) and would regard it as working to entrench rather than overthrow stereotypes (can't agree with you on it weakening gender restrictions). But I would see it as something to just put up with, rather than try to overcome – I'd consider that as women's position in society improved, it would probably fade naturally. And in the meantime, I'd of course want to be compassionate to individuals with mental health problems that made them imagine they were the opposite sex; I'd support protection of such people. Well, I do now too – I'm not in favour of discriminating against any individual; it's the movement itself and its aims that I oppose, as those aims are contrary to the welfare of children, women and also gay people generally.

[–] Nene 2 points Edited

I would probably call them by their preferred pronouns and support their preferred toilets to pee, for the rest I'd be a "transmed". Now that they showed us their insane endgame that pretty much erases our rights and us as a class of people I give no concessions.

I would un-ironically be calling them stunning and brave.

I was willing to support it in the past when it was mainly or at least it was said to be mostly effeminate gay men with body dysmorphia who transitioned(noticed we haven't hear dysphoria in a long time??). But once I realize the trans movement didn't want to gate keep on any level( someone actually said pre transition everything trans "women" should be able to access women spaces), I realized the movement can't be fairly accommodated.

I'd definitely be a supporter. That was always my stance. Let's make reasonable accommodations for the tiny percentage of adult transsexuals who feel they need to transition, but ensure that reality is acknowledged. I would never have peaked if trans activists hadn't started to go overboard and insist on the medicalization of children, twisting of language, and eradication of female-only spaces.

If they hadn't started all this menstruator bullshit I would have never looked into any of it

[–] hmimperialtortie AGP = evil 0 points

The movement was never benign, never about helping poor oppressed twans, because there’s no such thing. The old-style HSTS trying to disappear into the crowd is largely a myth. This has always been men imposing themselves on women, whether purely for their fetish or with a component of internalised homophobia, and always about making paedophilia acceptable. So no, knowing now what I do about them, I would be utterly opposed to them even if they were much lower-key.

Idk what there would be to support, though. AGP is not something to support, and people with transgenderism have a mental disorder. This is not at all similar to LGB.

Now, if you mean support people dressing and acting how they want, even if that's not traditionally how their sex looks and acts? Yes. I'd support that, primarily because it affects me. It affects all women: shaving, makeup, clothes, being quiet & submissive. But I 100% will still be creeped the fuck out by men who prance around in women's clothing (fishnets over bare chest & skin tight mini skirts, anyone?), especially if they speak in a nasal high voice. That is worlds apart from an effeminate man who loves clothes and makeup.

Like, if trans people were respectful.. no way in hell would I be out there proclaiming a man's right to say he's a woman, even if he also simultaneously understands he's not a "real" woman. Lines blur easily, as we've seen.

Those are all important, but the most critical issue to me is that the ideology stops pushing the claim that your interests indicate your gendered brain. And that picking a new gender makes you a better person than "boring cis people." These two things are what is driving many confused kids into the trans religion.

When my daughter was in second grade, one of her close friends (a girl) transitioned to non-binary because, she told my daughter, she liked traditionally male things like football and math. Back then my daughter told her that anything a girl likes is a "girl thing." But her friend pointed out that really wasn't true, and jumped into socially transitioning - in second grade! Now in 6th grade many of the girls are transitioning into non-binary, and I swear it is to get a new name and a stripe on the flag so they can be cool. One of my daughter's girlfriends decided to re-name herself Nix in the process of becoming non-binary. She told my daughter she is now named after a fairy of night. (That's actually a greek god's name but I digress.) If imagining yourself to be a fairy isn't the most god-damn traditional girlhood behavior ever, I don't know what is.

My daughter knows how I feel about trans ideology, but although she hasn't tried to say she is a different sex, she too has asked to change her name and bind her chest to be one of the cool kids. I wouldn't let her bind her chest, but I told her she could pick a nickname to be called by her friends. It is horrifying walking this line with my own daughter. The social contagion of it all is sickening.

Long ago I used to believe that trans people helped to break down the ridged gender roles that forced women and men into traditional behaviors and professions. Now i know the ideology mirrors and reinforces gender roles.

Now in 6th grade many of the girls are transitioning into non-binary, and I swear it is to get a new name and a stripe on the flag so they can be cool.

Considering how much this is a gateway to medical transition, this is so terrifying. 6th grade is utterly insane.

Not sure. What peaked me was a male friend acknowledging that women might feel uncomfortable with biological males in their bathrooms and locker rooms, but it was on women to get over their discomfort so that TIMs could move comfortably through the world. Right, women haven't taken enough of men's shit in all places at all times in the course of human civilization. He didn't even bat an eye in insta-prioritizing men's comfort (being validated) over women's comfort (feeling safe).

I couldn't begin to understand why this male friend, otherwise intelligent, sensible, and compassionate, didn't give one single flying fuck about whether women felt safe in public. That one conversation has led to a massive exploration of the issue and the conclusion that it's a movement inherently in conflict with women's rights. I have been forced to arrive at that conclusion a thousand times over. I have certainly tried to understand, to be on the "right side of history", to understand how that can possibly be the "right side of history", with diminishing hope. To look for compromises and workarounds. I've got nothing.

I'd be a supporter in principle, though in practice I would tread warily around TIMs until I was sure the male socialization was not going to come out and both sexes until I got a good read on how they treated other people. Otherwise, I don't care how others express themselves, define themselves, do to their own bodies, and choose for partners (given consenting adults and respect for persons), but I expect the same courtesy returned in full. It is the steamrollering of women's rights that made me realize there were sides to pick, and that I had to pick mine.

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