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If the transgender movement had drawn clear lines in the sand, that they were not willing to cross:

  • no one is forced to use certain pronouns for transgendered people
  • the words men and women clearly assigned based on sex
  • no medicalisation whatsoever of minors
  • protection of women only spaces/categories (shelters, changing rooms, sports, prisons,...)
  • no changing of sex on legal documents
  • chosing medical transition as a last resort
  • accepting that hetero/homosexuality are clearly linked to sex and not gender (while of course sexual attraction based on gender expression would not be discriminated against either)

While at the same time they would be very actively promoting acceptance of transgender identity in society. Working for protections of trans people, representation of trans people, mental health support, ...

Where would you be on the trans issue then?

I personally would definitely be an active supporter. Particularly because I would see it as a movement that is helpful in weakening gender restrictions, which I would love.

If the transgender movement had drawn clear lines in the sand, that they were not willing to cross: - no one is forced to use certain pronouns for transgendered people - the words men and women clearly assigned based on sex - no medicalisation whatsoever of minors - protection of women only spaces/categories (shelters, changing rooms, sports, prisons,...) - no changing of sex on legal documents - chosing medical transition as a last resort - accepting that hetero/homosexuality are clearly linked to sex and not gender (while of course sexual attraction based on gender expression would not be discriminated against either) While at the same time they would be very actively promoting acceptance of transgender identity in society. Working for protections of trans people, representation of trans people, mental health support, ... **Where would you be on the trans issue then?** I personally would definitely be an active supporter. Particularly because I would see it as a movement that is helpful in weakening gender restrictions, which I would love.

69 comments

Same place I was 50 years ago when they had not taken over.

I don't care if men want to wear dresses, makeup, long hair/wigs. And I don't care if they want to pretend they are women - in their private lives with willing participants who play along with the make-believe pronouns and the larp as "women".

The problem is when they expect the rest of the world to go along with any of it. No birth certificates or any other identification should be falsified to say a man is somehow "female". No speech, pronouns or otherwise, should be compelled. And no male person should ever be alllowed in any womens space or anything else for or about women. The larping men need to be kept out of womens: bathrooms, changing/locker rooms, prisons, sports, homeless or domestic violence shelters, rape crisis counseling, hospital wards and rooms, lesbian dating apps and social gatherings, and anything else that is - or should be - in any way exclusively for women.

They have no place among us. No matter what they do. No matter what drugs they take or what surgeries they do or don't have.

I don't care if men want to wear dresses, makeup, long hair/wigs. And I don't care if they want to pretend they are women - in their private lives with willing participants who play along with the make-believe pronouns and the larp as "women".

I was with you at some point, but I'm not anymore. I'd be ok dresses, makeup and wigs if they weren't exclusively culturally associated with the female sex, but they are.

If some white guy walked around with blackface on, or even just put it on in the privacy of his own home after work, there would obviously be something wrong with him and you'd have to wonder where that behaviour is coming from...and what it is leading to.

This is so clear when we're talking about something that can affect males. Why do we lose sight of how wrong it is when we're talking about something that can only affect women?

You can't wear characteristics that have been the basis of oppression for centuries as a costume, for fun and kicks. You can't. It's just not OK.

Part of radical feminism's goal is to abolish gender/gender roles as an entire concept. Gatekeeping traditionally feminine clothing is hardly productive to that point. Transsexuality and blackface have parallels but not the simple act of wearing a dress.

[–] [Deleted] 31 points Edited

It's kind of a pointless for me because this was the end goal from day one. I mean a whole movement based on depraved male sexuality? Only one way it can go. And just because we're feeling the extreme now doesn't mean it wasn't bad for a lot of people even back in the day, lesbians specifically. The moment the T got included in the LGB it was over imo.

100% agree. The only thing I would add to this is that they used to keep that shit in the fetish community where it belongs. People used to be ashamed of this fetish and did it in private. I am all for whatever you want to do in your own home as long as it's consensual, consenting adults and no children or animals are involved. The minute you go out in public that way and I have to coddle you it's a deal breaker. I don't want to participate in anyones fetish.

Yeah and the fetish community had victims as well, women. And a lot of younger girls they groomed, Omegle grooming as well as kik etc were huge. I mean grooming is huge now but it was also big back then.

I agree, I think this is really only a hypothetical exercise. What is happening now has always been unavoidable. If it was only people trying to escape gender stereotypes this might have been possible, but of course AGP is something entirely different. They are the kind of people that definitely will take everything and kick you out of the town, if you dare to let them cross even the smallest boundary.

Unfortunately the great majority of trans supporters (especially women) are still stuck in this hypothetical exercise and don't realize that the reality of who those trans women are just doesn't measure up to their harmonic utopia in their heads.

[–] [Deleted] 4 points Edited

I also believe trans and BDSM/kink sex pozzy go hand in hand. They both rose in popularity at the same time, and attitudes towards women became hostile after we had a small period of relief(very small). The law started reflecting this by having rape cases being less successful, by having accidental choking be an excuse for murder etc. And then it moves onto porn, rice in trafficking, rise in violence and batterings. To what we have now, removal of rights under TQ liberals and removal of rights under alt right conservatives. This shit is so deliberate and it goes hand in hand with each other.

I think I would basically be at the "nicefem" stage - men aren't really women and can't really become women, but what is the harm in being polite and using their preferred pronouns etc.

I saw it as a mental illness and not something that they could really control. There wasn't one thing that really peaked me but finding out that the vast majority were fetishists and not dysphoric helped with the peaking. The pronouns are rohypnol article more or less sent me down the route of no concessions to trans ever, not pronouns, not language, definitely not female only spaces.

Like probably everyone else I know and interact with some (few) people with a mental impairment on a regular basis. I, as most others, am very patient and willing to put up with behavior I normally would not. For example, almost every day I meet a lady with Down syndrome, who hugs me. I would not normally let myself be hugged by random strangers. I do however accept that this lady is incapable of understanding that we are not super close friends on account of my passing her on a regular basis while she waits for the bus. This is not a mass phenomenon though.

So, if trans had not become a total fad with all the subsequent ramifications, I would have accepted that there probably is a tiny subset of people affected by a, I guess, severe mental illness and an even tinier subset of the subset who, as a last resort, may, as, i guess, a palliative measure, live life as if they had been born the opposite sex. I actually would be kind of okay with this.

Kinda my thinking. With a bit of extra bandwidth for alt types playing about with gender presentation in a fun way.

My reading up on it all has given me the view that the entire premise of medical intervention (other than for actual brain health) is completely barbaric. So I can't return to a 'surgery in extreme cases' position now.

[–] ElectricBlue 4 points Edited

Yeah, this is like my experience with nonbinary identified people. The first person I ever met who was 'nonbinary' was someone who it was genuinely hard to tell if they were male or female (she was female). She was also autistic and had some quite severe disabilities, so hearing a friend tell me it was important to refer to this person neither as male or female, my naïve brain assumed it was a real thing - like a condition I hadn't heard of. It wasn't until a few years later when every woman with braces and a hat started to call themselves nonbinary that I cottoned on. If it had stayed very rare, I might have continued thinking it was a real thing.

I always thought the concept was weird and couldn’t see how it was not based on sexism and gender stereotypes, but I believed the myth about them being super vulnerable and harmless so I was a “live and let live” type. I’d still be in that state of mild cognitive dissonance I suppose. Maybe it’s a good thing for me personally that they woke me up to the reality of woman-hating and what psychos men can be.

I never would have found real feminism if it weren't for all of their craziness, so thanks TRAs!

[–] Guttatim [OP] 3 points Edited

Absolutely agree! We women are so used to patriarchy's brainwashing, that we are able to swallow most of pseudo-feminisms (liberal feminism) BS. But something about TRAs, is prime peak material - not just on that one matter, but to the overall reality partiarchical oppression.

[–] diana00912 23 points Edited

I was always gender critical because I reject the idea that stupid misogynistic social stereotypes have any root in reality. I always felt that men should feel free to dress in traditionally feminine clothes, as long as they don't claim that womanhood = feminine clothes. Likewise for masculine women. Etc.

That being said, it's wild how far things have come in the 10 years since I've become interested in radical feminism. It used to feel mostly philosophical, now I'm left begging for bread crumbs like sex segregated sports or the term "pregnant women".

Some years ago (2009-2012, somewhere in there) I watched a surveillance camera video of some black teen girls pulling a 27 year old white guy with long scraggly blond hair , out of the womens' bathroom (in a fast food place; think it was a Burger King). They beat the shit out of him, and he just curled up in a ball, sobbing.

Back then, I was such a dunce I actually felt sorry for him, because "he's obviously a harmless gay man, and he might get beat up by homophobes in the men's bathroom! "

Now, I know those girls were right; he was almost certainly an autogynephiliac, and the reason he was curled up sobbing, is, he just couldn't believe vaginathings, subhuman objects put on this earth to do whatever men tell them to, were failing to "validate his feelings". That's what we she-goats are for, after all.

Once I read those papers c.2014-2015, in which we learn that when men interact with other men, the part of their brain devoted to interpersonal communication engages, while when dealing with women, it's the part devoted to assessing objects-IOW, men literally "see" women as non human-that changed everything for me. It explains so much about not just today, but for all of recorded history. And it most definitely explains the violent entitlement of too many men, and most especially of trans woMEN.

Trans woMEN are men, regardless of whether they're the small minority who have themselves castrated and mutilated, parts regrafted to their bodies in a vague approximation of female genitalia , and pumped full of horse piss hormones, or the overwhelming majority who think they've found a 'cheat sheet' to force lesbians into letting them insert their "lady dicks" into their bodies. Many don't even make token efforts to pass...Almost as if the fun for them is using their obviously male appearance to frighten women and girls trapped with them in spaces that should be reserved for biological females only.

[–] real_feminist 8 points Edited

Once I read those papers c.2014-2015, in which we learn that when men interact with other men, the part of their brain devoted to interpersonal communication engages, while when dealing with women, it's the part devoted to assessing objects-IOW

This does explain a lot! Where can I find more information on this?

I'd like to read this as well, because I'm dealing with some really obtuse men at the moment.

5 years ago I was in the "I don't care what they do as long as they keep it to themselves" camp. I knew nothing about the issues because they didn't affect me, and I had other things to worry about. Then my partner decided he was trans, and it fucked with my head but I tried to be supportive. After a period of time when he said that he wasn't trans, then he suddenly was again after our second child was born and was now on hormones I peaked properly so now I'm transphobic.

I'm not sure if I would even be here if all that had never happened. I probably would still not really care about trans stuff at all except for being mildly supportive of a person's choice to live how they want.

You probably already know, but there is a website called’transwidows voices’ when others who have gone through this tell their stories

Not sure if it’s right for you

We may even have a circle here. If not we should

Thanks, I know about it and the Mumsnet thread. There isn't a circle here yet.

Before this nonsense started, I only rarely heard about transed men, and thought they looked rather silly, (note that back then, the only kind who got invited to talkshows where the middle aged men who dressed like middle aged women), and I didn't care much about them. Would probably even have used their preferred pronouns when encountering them in public, as I am crap at telling if a man is a particularly ugly woman or a man and wouldn't want to be rude to a woman with an unfortunate case of manface. Now, I am getting better at telling ... and more suspicious.

There was no movement to speak of in my country - they had the right to get surgery, and the right to have their official sex changed, I think, after surgery (which I would actually be against now in any case - it was made law so that homosexual men who transed themselves could marry other men, which since gay marriage is legal now is unnecessary ... but I didn't even know they could do that before the insanity started) and they seemed content with that.

Perhaps I would have thought it sad that homosexuals still feel a need to trans themselves to escape homophobia,but that would be it. I wouldn't have much of an opinion on the whole thing.

From my point of view, the trans movement is solely about invading womens' space and nothing else. The trans movement has no legitimate causes to fight for and didn't even exist as a movement a couple years ago, precisely because it has no legitimate reason to exist.

[–] crodish 🤡🌏 11 points

I would be a supporter. I always was. The problem started when all the things you listed above and people started abusing it or jumping on it as the trend.

I was never against the T until they started becoming reality-ignoring bullies.

[–] BlackCirce 🔮🐖🐖🐖 10 points

I used to be more naive about autogynephilia and I had a more live and let live attitude towards trans. I don’t use public restrooms or locker rooms very much and I don’t watch sports so it was a very whatever issue for me. Because while it seems like radical feminists are common, we aren’t, most political women I’ve ever known personally are liberal feminists, and I’m willing to cede if I’ve lost. I’m not one to insert myself into situations that don’t involve me. I (thought) pornoprostitution and male violence are worse problems than a handful of men who pass wanting to use the women’s room. But clearly I was wrong.

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