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I lurk in r/honesttransgender and today a thread was started (https://archive.md/7wwlM) by a poster who thinks the trans community does a poor job of explaining TERF beliefs, leading people to go off and do their own research and then become TERFs themselves. So the thread is devoted to them “steel manning” (or in regular people-speak, explaining) core TERF beliefs in a way that fellow travelers can follow.

Since I suspect subredditors from there lurk here, this is my response to the OP:

————————-

First off, I appreciate the attempt to understand the other side’s position well enough to form arguments that support it as a mental exercise. I also commend you for considering the trans community’s rhetoric of choice (“they hate trans people") could potentially be driving prospective allies away. It is not easy to always be open in this way.

“Sex is immutable” is a so-called TERF idea that you admitted to struggling with. Not trying to be an ass, but out of all the positions you listed, this one should be the least controversial and easiest to articulate to others. I will help you.

One’s sex class is determined at conception. It emerges from expressed genes carried on sex chromosomes. If you have a body organized around large ova production and gestation then you are female. If you have a body organized around small gametes and insemination, then you are male. Yes, its possible to have a reproductive system that is functionally impaired in some way so that it can’t gestate (or inseminate or whatever), but that doesn’t change the fact that you have a sex-specific system in part or in whole (which is why intersex ppl are either male or female). This system includes sex chromosomes which are embedded in every somatic cell of the body.

A transwoman can take estrogen, but that doesn’t negate the male reproductive parts they carry. It doesn’t negate the SRY gene carried on their Y chromosome that tells the male body to do things a female body is unequipped to do. It’s like giving a old station wagon high octane gas, thinking that will make it a sports car. Nature doesn’t work like this.

A transwomen can get SRS to create an invagination in their crotch that simulates a vagina. But that is not an actual vagina. Vaginas are one part of a bigger system that includes a cervix, uterus, Fallopian tubes, and ovaries. It’s not merely a receptacle for sex; it is a functional body part produced after millions of years of evolution. Transwomen cannot have the system that women have. They have a male system.

Sex cannot be changed in our species, in the absence of technology we will likely never have. Unfortunately, the trans community has a hard time understanding that reproductive roles is the primary basis for sorting sexually dimophoric animals into male and female bins—not identity claims, behaviors or personal aesthetics. A hen is a hen not because it feels like a hen, but because it has a female reproductive tract. Women have a female reproductive tract as well.

Admitting that sex is immutable might mean confronting the prospect that all these drugs and surgeries y’all are getting is just window dressing. But it’s important that you push past the discomfort this idea brings, and accept that it’s biology not ideology that has decided you are male.

That is all.

I lurk in r/honesttransgender and today a thread was started (https://archive.md/7wwlM) by a poster who thinks the trans community does a poor job of explaining TERF beliefs, leading people to go off and do their own research and then become TERFs themselves. So the thread is devoted to them “steel manning” (or in regular people-speak, explaining) core TERF beliefs in a way that fellow travelers can follow. Since I suspect subredditors from there lurk here, this is my response to the OP: ————————- First off, I appreciate the attempt to understand the other side’s position well enough to form arguments that support it as a mental exercise. I also commend you for considering the trans community’s rhetoric of choice (“they hate trans people") could potentially be driving prospective allies away. It is not easy to always be open in this way. “Sex is immutable” is a so-called TERF idea that you admitted to struggling with. Not trying to be an ass, but out of all the positions you listed, this one should be the least controversial and easiest to articulate to others. I will help you. One’s sex class is determined at conception. It emerges from expressed genes carried on sex chromosomes. If you have a body organized around large ova production and gestation then you are female. If you have a body organized around small gametes and insemination, then you are male. Yes, its possible to have a reproductive system that is functionally impaired in some way so that it can’t gestate (or inseminate or whatever), but that doesn’t change the fact that you have a sex-specific system in part or in whole (which is why intersex ppl are either male or female). This system includes sex chromosomes which are embedded in every somatic cell of the body. A transwoman can take estrogen, but that doesn’t negate the male reproductive parts they carry. It doesn’t negate the SRY gene carried on their Y chromosome that tells the male body to do things a female body is unequipped to do. It’s like giving a old station wagon high octane gas, thinking that will make it a sports car. Nature doesn’t work like this. A transwomen can get SRS to create an invagination in their crotch that simulates a vagina. But that is not an actual vagina. Vaginas are one part of a bigger system that includes a cervix, uterus, Fallopian tubes, and ovaries. It’s not merely a receptacle for sex; it is a functional body part produced after millions of years of evolution. Transwomen cannot have the system that women have. They have a male system. Sex cannot be changed in our species, in the absence of technology we will likely never have. Unfortunately, the trans community has a hard time understanding that reproductive roles is the primary basis for sorting sexually dimophoric animals into male and female bins—not identity claims, behaviors or personal aesthetics. A hen is a hen not because it feels like a hen, but because it has a female reproductive tract. Women have a female reproductive tract as well. Admitting that sex is immutable might mean confronting the prospect that all these drugs and surgeries y’all are getting is just window dressing. But it’s important that you push past the discomfort this idea brings, and accept that it’s biology not ideology that has decided you are male. That is all.

58 comments

According to TERFs, gender identity is either something socially contructed in a way that means most trans people have the histories of their birth sex and gender, nonexistent, or something that always relates to the initially assigned, presumed or physical sex in question.

Um, yeah. It's called reality, bub. Being trans isn't real. You were born a man, and you'll always be a man.

Trans people are considered appropriative in the way that certain people appropriate cultures or racial backgrounds.

Appropriating other people's struggles is all you've ever done. You're parasitic at this point.

Some TERFs believe that trans people are perverts in a harmful and nonconsensual way and that transitioning is just a way for men to gain access to women or straight women to gain access to gay men.

Perverts in a harmful and noncensensual way . . .as if there were some good way to be a pervert?

If you weren't transitioning to gain access to women and if this was really about your mental delusion that wearing a dress makes you a woman (it doesn't), then why don't "transwomen" ever demand access to spaces where women are older or at least less vulnerable?

Why don't "transwomen" ever demand access to a military barracks, an old ladies' church group, or a convent full of nuns? Because "transwomen" can't rape, harass, and prey on those women with impunity, and they have no desire to be around women who don't get thier "girl dick" hard. Women in prisons and homeless shelters and public restrooms are easier, younger, more desirable targets. But sure. Play dumb.

A man who puts on a dress and tells lesbians they have to fuck him or else they're a bigot is -- surprise! -- a pervert.

A man who gets a boner from wearing women's clothes is -- surprise! -- a pervert.

A man who tries to force the entire world to go along with his fetish is -- surprise! -- a pervert.

A man who gets off on invading women's spaces is -- surprise! -- a pervert.

To TERFs, intention and action are seen as the same when a trans person does something socially frowned upon, yet intentions are considered largely irrelevant if a trans person's actions are proven harmful.

Yes. That's basic logic and empathy, which you don't seem to have. If a person gets hurt, your intentions don't fucking matter. All that matters is that someone got hurt.

If I got drunk and ran over someone's kid, it wouldn't fucking matter that it was an accident. I'd still have to take responsibility for having taken someone's life.

If you people had empathy at all, you'd actually give a shit that women were being raped and harmed by "transwomen" in public spaces, and you would stop pushing to invade our spaces, whatever your "intentions" are.

But you don't give a shit. All you care about is indulging your fetish like the pervert you are.

Because TERFs don't find trans people appealing, they struggle to recognize that other people do. They automatically assume that any person who is attracted to or friendly with a trans person is either being fooled in some way or an exception to the rule.

No gentle way to break it to you: no one finds trans people appealing.

People are nice to you and pretend to find you attractive because "transwomen" have a tendancy towards violently attacking poeple who "misgender" them.

To TERFs, changing ones' gender, gender role, sex and presentation are considered tantamount to some sort of fake disguise rather than, as trans people see it, a way to assert an identity. For this reason, they tend to disregard any assertion by trans people that they have more in common with their chosen gender

Yeah, your sexist notion that wearing a dress, giggling, and eating bon bons makes you "a woman" is not an identity. It is, in fact, a costume. And a sexist one at that.

You don't have anything in common with your "chosen gender." And . . . LOL. You just told on yourself. "Chosen gender"???? I thought the poor victimized trans were assigned genders at birth by igonrant transphobic doctors! Do you mean to say that being trans is -- gasp! -- a choice????

or sex and see every attempt at intimacy with their chosen gender or sex as suspect or a way to maliciously lower people's barriers.

Hmm. Why would "TERFs" think that "trans" people are predatory and deceptive? Could it be all the "stealhing," catfishing, and lying about your biological sex? Nah. Can't be that. Must be that "TERFs" are just raging irrational bigots who hate the poor innocent trans and apparently want them all to die or . . . whatever new crap you've made up this week.

I personally often worry that I really am being a pervert, but I know that it isn't true of the average trans person and it doesn't make you a rapist.

If you were worried about being a pervert, then you would stay the fuck out of women's spaces and respect our right to privacy. But nothing is more important than your ,,validation," even if it means women are raped and children are multilated, and here we are.

Yeah, the way that this dude is talking about perversion and nonconsent really tells me all I need to know about him...

[–] Moonpriestess 14 points Edited

Males gonna male I guess.

The rape apologia just really jumps out, doesn't it?

For the record I heard of at least one Tim trying to get into a nunnery. If they weren't predatory, they'd be asking for third spaces, not our (female only) spaces.