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TRAs typically argue that transpeople have dysphoria which gives them painful mental discomfort from being misgendered or seeing themselves in the mirror as the "wrong" gender (this doesn't account for all TRAs but that's a different topic). In order to reduce supposed mental pain, we must avoid misgendering trans people.

What are your thoughts on this? Is gender dysphoria real? Does it justify making people use preferred pronouns? Is cosmetic surgery necessary for some to cure dysphoria (and thus considered healthcare)?

TRAs typically argue that transpeople have dysphoria which gives them painful mental discomfort from being misgendered or seeing themselves in the mirror as the "wrong" gender (this doesn't account for all TRAs but that's a different topic). In order to reduce supposed mental pain, we must avoid misgendering trans people. What are your thoughts on this? Is gender dysphoria real? Does it justify making people use preferred pronouns? Is cosmetic surgery necessary for some to cure dysphoria (and thus considered healthcare)?

41 comments

[–] jelliknight 0 points (+0|-0) Edited

Lots of people are uncomfortable with their bodies. Especially the sexed parts of their bodies. How many women really love their cellulite? How many give their vulvas 10/10? We're taught to hate our sexed bodies. But even beyond that, we're shown statues carved in marble as if that's what we're supposed to like like. We're carved out of meat. I'd like to see anyone carve a perfect venus de milo out of mince and pork fat. So all of modern society sets us up with unrealistic body ideals. Paleolithic peoples had a far more realistic idea of what bodies ought to look like. We know that things like anorexia and bullemia are cultural diseases. We measured how they penetrated into societies along with TV and magazines. Gender dysphoria is the same. The illness isn't in us, it's all around us. We're drowning in it and some people just aren't as good at swimming and succumb to it. Changing the body doesn't work as a cure. We need to change the culture and in the mean time give people the tools to cope.

[–] LadyGrey 3 points (+3|-0)

If we refer to “sex dysphoria” it becomes a much more accurate term. It’s a form of body dysmorphia.

As to gender identity dysphoria, I don’t believe it is a coherently defined disorder. Certainly, gender roles and expectation from others can cause psychological distress- so “gender role dysphoria” makes sense to me. But distress over your own internal sense of gender identity makes no sense because by gender ideology definitions, gender identity is your inherent soul-feeling that is not subject to change. Therefore, “gender identity dysphoria” makes about as much sense as “religious identity dysphoria”.

As with any discomfort from the external world, gender role dysphoria can be treated with therapy like DBT to help you accept the world as it is and control your emotional reactions to it. Sex dysphoria should be treated the way we treat other body dysmorphia, with similar therapy. Altering healthy bodies physically for psychological reasons is unethical. Lobotomies were once believed to be an ethical psychological disorder treatment.

Nothing justifies preferred pronouns, because no one has the right to dictate how other people see the world.

[–] ALoudMeow 0 points (+0|-0)

It might be as real as any of the paranoid thoughts I had from bipolar disorder before I got treatment, in the sense that it’s a thought, it’s distorted, and it doesn’t reflect reality. And that you need things like medication, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, family systems therapy, etc, etc to learn how to turn those thoughts off or at least to ignore them. But do I in anyway believe someone can “be” the opposite sex, no way. They need their ideas about gender roles and stereotypes changed.

[–] [Deleted] 0 points (+0|-0)

People have intense and irrational hatred of their body or body parts frequently, I'm sure having such feelings around genitalia or presentation is real.

I think more of it, though, is frustration with gender roles, and the conviction that the only way to break gender roles is to change one's body - rather than simply say, "screw your gender roles, I'm going to wear workboots and study stem/wear makeup and become an interior decorator." And with the imposition of trans ideology, I'm sure a lot of it is young adults realizing they only have romantic and sexual feelings for the same sex, and thinking that means they 'must' be in the wrong body.

IOW the bodies are fine, society needs to be fixed, as well as their cognition.

[–] Redmage 0 points (+0|-0) Edited

I think it's a desire to belong, when they feel they don't belong in "normal" society.

I think nearly every teen goes through this. The ones that believe they are a vampire. The ones that believe they are a witch. The ones who say they are gay (but aren't later on).

That's a normal thing during teenage years, as that's when the kid is trying to figure out their place in society. They feel they don't belong, so they must belong in XYZ minority, strange, and/or special group.

Some of those groups are real (gay). Some aren't (vampires). Some teens who get into tarot, pagan, etc. end up staying pagan as an adult, some don't. The ones who stay XYZ as an adult generally keep it up, despite no longer feeling "left behind" by "normal" society.

It's a totally normal thing to go through.

But trans take that feeling of "left out" with them into adulthood. They desperately want to find a group to join, and, a group to hate.

It's the boohoo no one understands me of teenager years, but with a group a adult.

Even then, it's mostly only damaging to themselves until they they try to push into the rights of others.

Maybe some of them actual feel dysmophic, but I think a lot of them go like this: "Society says men are like XYZ. I am not like XYZ. I fail at being a man. Thus, I must be a woman. The only reason I'm bad at being a woman is because society failed me."

Spoilers: society's thoughts oh what it means to be a certain sex change decade to decade. You are the only one who can know what it means to be your sex

[–] Willow9 1 points (+1|-0) Edited

I think gender dysphoria is real, a mental disorder, and should not ever leave the DSM.

I think people misunderstand mental illness. All mental illness involve, to some extend or the other, internal and external factors. People focus too much on internal factors, on genetic "born this way" over-simplification, and forget to analyze just how much society and all its stressors also play an essential role. Let's not ever that anorexia, another body dysmorphic illness, affects almost exclusively women (90%).

Are women intrinsically more prone to delusions about body image, or is it society that force down our throats unhealthy, impossible beauty standards everyday? It's like a war against our images, everyday. So yes, I do think that gender dysphoria has a lot to do with all the bullshit that the gender roles are in society, thus I wish TRA would stop saying that the so-called CIS women identifies with their gender, because it's virtually impossible, specially from women, to not have experienciated distress over the oppressions that gender forces on us.

I think the distress that some people with gender dysphoria is real, is part a dysmorphic body issue, part society toxic conditioning, girls are specially vulnerable, but so are gay men and AGP men.

I completely disagree with the growing opinion that Gender Dysphoria is pathologizing the trans existence and should be dropped as a concept.

If there was not a pathology, there would be no need to treat it with hormones and surgery to "save" lives. I also fear that the removal of it as a disorder will facilitate access to those hormones and surgery, as nobody should have free means to permanently damage their health bodies with no restrictions. Even cigarettes are hard to buy now-a-days, so I just feel like laughing when I see the call for free unrestricted access to "trans health".

I completely refuse to accept this treatment as serious medical experience. Nothing about it makes sense, we are giving off-label drugs to kids to "stop" natural puberty. We don't have enough research to be so sure about this risky, radical precedures. Those people have no idea the risks they are submitting to, specially if they start the transition as young as most do, and it's completely unethical for doctors to allow it to happen.

I believe Gender Dysphoria should be treated with psychotherapy and if necessary antidepressants. It's hard to tell what comes first sometimes, it's very common for patients with GD suffer from other mental illness such as depression.

The diagnoses of GD is a joke, most of the items in DSM about it have to do with gender stereotypes. But it's also common to have difficult diagnosis in mental health, that's why we should try to exclude other pathologies and conditions that might contribute to the symptoms. There's this data about autistic kids being more likely to come out as trans that tell us that differential diagnosis isn't be taking seriously as it should.

We also see a lot of fetishist man transitioning, among those the ones claiming that having GD isn't essential to be trans. And, as angry as they personally make me, they also should've had a differential diagnosis, DSM includes the Transvestic disorder under the chapter about paraphilias. It affects almost exclusively men and it's fundamentally about a sexual fetish. It should ask for psychotherapy and some much needed truths "you are not a women because you get a hard on wearing dresses, you are free to indulge in your fantasies in the privacy of your home, but do not expect or force people to play along with it." It's laughable, we have pedophilia and voyeurism as paraphilias in the DSM5 as well, but we would never encourage kid abuse or spying other people having sex, for example, and yet AGP men get doctors to allow them to become completely self-obssessed and let their fetish consume their lives and the lives of everyone around them.

[–] heidischallenge 0 points (+0|-0)

Are women intrinsically more prone to delusions about body image, or is it society that force down our throats unhealthy, impossible beauty standards everyday? It's like a war against our images, everyday. So yes, I do think that gender dysphoria has a lot to do with all the bullshit that the gender roles are in society, thus I wish TRA would stop saying that the so-called CIS women identifies with their gender, because it's virtually impossible, specially from women, to not have experienciated distress over the oppressions that gender forces on us.

Well said. In a culture where gender expectations are low, this would not exist

[–] Totallyrad 2 points (+2|-0)

I'm tired of the "inclusive" argument aimed at women when they won't include our voices and most of these men claiming to be trans don't even transition. Just seems like another sexist movement. The LGBT has totally missed the mark.

[–] thedarkhorse Gender atheist 1 points (+1|-0)

I tend to go along with the delusions of people with dementia and schizophrenia etc. because it keeps the peace and makes them happy. You can't go to far with it though because that will also cause harm. It is however completely exhausting and I only do it as part of work I wouldn't seek out people with that level of mental illness to be friends with. If it's your relative you are a bit stuck unfortunately.

[–] gnarlyfem 3 points (+3|-0)

I think the majority of transpeople are self diagnosing themselves with GD. The actual disorder is pretty rare. It’s much more complex than just being unhappy with your sex and body.

[–] endthewoo 1 points (+2|-1)

Gender dysphoria is real in the same way that anorexia and other brain-body dysmorphias are

Nothing justifies making people play along with the deluded, and telling them to deny reality (though obvs pple are free to play along if they want)

Cosmetic surgery is possibly a help (not cure) for some, after other avenues have been properly investigated.

[–] mathlover 3 points (+3|-0)

Gender dysphoria is meaningless. Almost no one is satisfied with all the behaviors of the sex role stereotypes associated with their own sex.

For the young, gender non-conforming kids, they never get to be "dysphoric" at all. They just get abused and mutilated to make sure they don't turn out gay/lesbian. This is not a mental illness. This is child abuse in the name of homophobia and has been promulgated to take the focus off trans as a sexual paraphilia.

For girls (mostly, and some women) "dysphoria" is just justifiable hatred for the savage mysogyny of growing up and being female. Also not a mental illness. This is trying to escape lesbophobia and mysogyny. And it ignores and denies any psychological comorbidities (history of CSE, trauma, etc) that might factor into girls thinking that transing could ever help.

But for virtually all the males (from age puberty on up) "dysphoria" is the male socialized entitled frustration and narcissistic rage when they are prevented from getting their preferred sexual gratification. This is the vast majority of all trans in the US and probably also the UK and Australia. This is a sexual paraphilia (or kink or perversion) and by the time boys or men start to act upon it, it is irreversible and they are unsalvageable.

The first two groups need protection. The gnc kids need protection from abuse and the girls/women from mysogyny and lesbophobia.

The third group is already as overprotected as all other men. If they are shamed, ridiculed, or suffer other consequences for trying to force the rest of the world to help them live their fantasy, that is a good thing. Fifty + years ago, all that ridicule and such is why they kept their sexual proclivities private.

To find the incidence of actual gender identity disorder, you'd have to go back to before the word "gender" meant anything other than grammar categories in some languages. It would be an exceedingly rare finding in an infinitesimally small number of people. No one would have a problem protecting them. But their treatment and protection would not involve anyone else having to play make-believe.

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