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Historians and experts in the last year or so have been warning about the increasingly likely fall of US democracy as we know it, and that we are barreling full steam toward a far right Christian theocracy/autocracy.

At surface level, you might expect TRA to diminish if a far-right authoritarian government came to power, but I would argue that trans ideology wouldn't be erased at all. In fact, I think it would be readily accepted as a type of social enforcement arm of the US government to punish women and homosexuals.

I mean, look at Iran and how they happily subsidize gender re-assignment surgeries but punish homosexuality with death. Then look at the similarities between TRA and MRA, the misogyny and the homophobia that exists within the movement. Then look at the TIMs who slobber at the idea of corrective raping TERFS and lesbians. They seem like they are just jonesing for a Handmaid's Tale situation.

Am I totally off base in thinking TRA would probably do very well under a fascist dictatorship?

Historians and experts in the last year or so have been [warning](https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2021/06/01/more-than-100-scholars-issue-warning-that-american-democracy-is-in-danger-call-for-federal-reforms/?sh=6121c04826f7) about the increasingly likely fall of US democracy as we know it, and that we are barreling full steam toward a far right Christian theocracy/autocracy. At surface level, you might expect TRA to diminish if a far-right authoritarian government came to power, but I would argue that trans ideology wouldn't be erased at all. In fact, I think it would be readily accepted as a type of social enforcement arm of the US government to punish women and homosexuals. I mean, look at Iran and how they happily subsidize gender re-assignment surgeries but punish homosexuality with death. Then look at the similarities between TRA and MRA, the misogyny and the homophobia that exists within the movement. Then look at the TIMs who slobber at the idea of corrective raping TERFS and lesbians. They seem like they are just jonesing for a Handmaid's Tale situation. Am I totally off base in thinking TRA would probably do very well under a fascist dictatorship?

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Conservative churches fall for the gender woo? No way. It's not going to happen. It completely goes against everything they believe about "the body is a temple of the Holy Spirit," and "God made them male and female,' etc., etc. Heck, some still don't even approve of tattoos. :)

I sometimes attend a progressive church (family thing), and I know two lesbian couples in this church, and one of the couples told me that they left the "very progressive" church in our town because of the gender woo taught there. They don't want their daughters anywhere near it.

I wish I could link to this other church, but I don't want to give too much info about myself. It's a freaking nightmare, and I really think about 75% of the whole focus of the church is gender woo. My friends were very burned there, and one cried when she told me about her experience. :( It was heartbreaking.

Yeah, this. Was just reading the article about the SNP not talking to feminists and religious groups about self id and yeah, like the Free Church of Scotland is going to embrace self id? Hell will freeze over first. As for the high churches - CofE/CofS and episcopalians probably will, but the CofE/CofS doesn't know what it stands for. You won't see the Catholic church falling for this in a million years, it might lead to a female Pope - the horror.

[–] emissch [OP] 10 points Edited

I wouldn't necessarily call it "falling for" but rather them co-opting a political tool to be utilized for their own purposes. I'm also not really talking about individual church groups, but rather a Christian theocracy. Does anyone actually think the Iranian government has "fallen for" gender woo (yet they still subsidize re-assignment surgeries)? Not even a little.

Yeah, the surgery is used more akin to a punishment for gays. It is more or less forced upon them or else they could be imprisoned, fortured, or put to death by the government if a member of the public or one of their own family members doesn't kill them first. That's the aspect of it that I could see being utilised someday -- to get rid of homosexuality and gender nonconformity. For instance, if women misbehave or step out of line, perhaps it could be claimed they therefore aren't really women, so they have to reform themselves (become hyperfemine) or else face being forcibly trans'd.

What you're talking about here is really more in theory than something practiced in real life. In reality the whole churches against gays thing is more a political issue outside of churches than within. Mainly because the discord between homosexuality and Christian teaching has led to many gays not seeking out the religion, and those who grew up with it abandoned it when they grow up. So there just aren't that many gay people in churches. if they are, those tend to be liberal churches that are accepting of gay people. So there isn't really a lot of "punishing gay people" going on, and it's honestly not a subject that is talked about much at churches (by virtue of gay people not wanting anything to do with churches.) The subject is much more rampant outside of churches. And church people can't do anything outside of the church.

Your proposition makes no sense. Firstly Iran is not a Christian country or regime, so what does Christianity has to do with it? Secondly, we don't have any "Christian theocracy" today. Not really. I can't think of any country's regime solely governed by Christian beliefs. In any case, who's co-opting whom? I'm confused. Trans ideology does not fit with mainstream Christian teachings. There are some fringe progressive churches that have gone full on TRAs but they're in no way representative of any denominations organizations. Some denominations like the Episcopalians have adopted a more open door policy, but I don't think even they spend much time delving into trans ideology.

Well, the far right in the US isn't very religious anymore, that's part of why it's becoming so dangerous and unhinged, there's absolutely nothing tethering it, no traditions or educated leaders, just online conspiracy crap. The Christian right would be considered more center right on the current US political spectrum. There have been studies showing that people who attend any kind of religious services tend to be in the middle of the political spectrum, while people who don't are mainly far right and far left. Many of them might still identify as culturally Christian in some way, like trump grabbing the Bible for a photo op, but they aren't going to church on a Thursday night to volunteer at the food pantry, they don't have a ton of real life social connections.

Ultra orthodox pentecoastal churches are only waiting for the sweet greens to start advocating for srs for gays. The far right in my country is starting to push the ideology behind the scenes. No church is too pure to be corrupted by their money

[–] WorriedMama86 3 points Edited

Something I admire about the church I used to go to was that it never affirmed gender transition. I doubt they support either the LGB or the TQ, and that's part of the reason I left the religion in general, but the thing is, I think they're a little more lenient about the former.

[–] TheQuantumBoson Radfems Rule! 3 points Edited

I'm so sorry. And yes, I do see more and more "progressive/liberal" churches talking about "gender woo." I'm even seeing more conservative Christians begin to embrace the gender woo -- now when they talk about TIMs they (at least Catholics) say things like "a woman who used to be a man" -- as if a TIM left behind his masculinity by transitioning, when in fact he still is a male and should be treated as such, period

In Summer 2019, The Vatican made clear it was Team Terf in a document called ‘Male and Female he created them’. This document also understands perfectly the difference between sex and gender, and that modern transgenderism is individualism gone mad.

http://www.educatio.va/content/dam/cec/Documenti/19_0997_INGLESE.pdf

I was going to say, only super progressive Catholics believe this gender stuff and Catholics are notoriously conservative on reproductive issues of any kind.

No catholic thinks that. You can try with protestants maybe, but catholics are not like that.

[–] Lilith-Fair 1 points Edited

Agree. Or next thing they know, TIFs can seek to become priests. What will they do then? And seriously most Protestants except for those identified as "progressives" don't either. Although I do see churches walking on eggshells confused like most people being unsure what this is all about and how they're supposed to deal with real life TIPs.

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The Handmaid's Tale: TiM edition would be a terrifying story of complete patriarchy... the women contributing to women's oppression is a major theme in the original, but it would be a truly horrifying element to see even those women replaced by male pretenders.

[–] TheQuantumBoson Radfems Rule! 13 points

This terrifies me as someone who is both bisexual and a self-proclaimed TERF. I live in an area that has a very conservative government, yet it's incredibly easy to get gender surgeries, so I could see it happening.

Yeah, I've been thinking lately how easily TRA could get co-opted by the far right and it scares the shit out of me. It's one of the main reasons why I won't come out as GC or radfem on social media.

We're heading for a far-right Christian autocracy? I thought we were heading for a far-left irreligious autocracy, sort of like mainland China.

[–] emissch [OP] 2 points Edited

Historically speaking, periods of hedonism (narcissism, self-centeredness, pleasure only) are followed by periods of extreme religious conservatism.

Yet another reason to fight this men's sexual rights movement back.

I'm sorry but you lost me when you quoted "Vox". All the sources you quote are ones that push a certain narrative. Like all things, there'll be truth in something, along with a slant. With corporations, tech industries, and social media giants firmly on the left shutting down the right, the threat of the far right can't go very far. Twitter just permanently suspended MTG.

Yup. In most parts of the world where the TRA ideology has a foothold, its gains have come primarily in place of—and/or at the expense of (alrdy existing)—gay men's and Lesbians' rights. With significant collateral damage to Women's rights in general.

I'm Catholic. And... from the Catholic side? No, the gender thing doesn't fly. There's a document that the vatican released about 11 years ago about how separating sex from gender as if they aren't tied or correlated is an issue that doesn't correspond with reality. However the other christian denominations are "vulnerable" because there's a lack of unity in "what to believe" so if some trendy pastor deems gender ideology worthy he will preach it without a doubt. However I do believe that there are several "strong" bigger denominations that would try to keep the gender ideology at bay, but I'm not sure how long they'll last.

I disagree with this. We can debate how Christianity is practice, but as a matter of theological teaching, the endless narcissism of trans ideology, plus the alteration of bodies, are antithesis of what Christianity is all about. They're literally treating God's creation as imperfect, so how can that fit with Christianity? Even a "Christian autocracy, whatever that means? And that doesn't even exist anywhere in the world right now anymore. Can you name an example? As for far right, well far right ideology is extremely dangerous, and also super conservative. From what I've observed of "far right", they are brutal to any form of "degeneracy". I don't see them embracing trans ideology, even though trans ideology itself runs into alignment with far right ideology. Iran is an exception not the norm.

[–] Philogynist 3 points Edited

This is coming from an American perspective:

Conservatives tend to be just as critical as we are of the gender identity movement but for the homophobic and sexist reasons. I really don't think we would see them clamoring to enable the trans movement to benefit from tax payer money. We have seen the Republican movement already attempt to instill measures against trans people such as disallowing them from joining the military and stuff.

Conservatives seem more furious about the #BLM movement and critical race theory than the trans movement. I think this is why we have seen them not have much of a concentrated effort on preventing things like trans surgeries.

I imagine instead what would happen is they would view the trans movement as a combination of "libtard homosexuals" and a religion that competes with their own.

I think there's truth to what you said. It seems to me conservatives are upset about the BLM movements for various reasons, primarily that (1) they view everything pro-minority as "special/preferential treatment), and (2) most actually don't think they're racist (without realizing sometimes their attitudes can be quite ignorant) and are insulted they're being called that. In contrast, trans ideology hasn't affected their lives. It's just confined to the realm of those "libtards" and they're laughing at it. And the sexist ones just laugh and say "feminists brought this upon themselves".

Exactly. I think, too, many conservatives are afraid of "reverse racism", wherein people of color mistreat and use power over white people in the same way that white people have mistreated and used power over people of color for centuries.

Does God make mistakes, though?

Your question implies that Christian authoritarians actually care about scripture and consistent applications of bible teachings, but history has demonstrated that they don't give two shits about any of that.

Can you please at least name some Christian authoritarians who are threatening to take over some place and impose Christian theology as a political regime? I honestly can't think of any right now but I'm open to being enlightened and willing to admit I'm wrong if there is proven to be such.

TRA would do “better” than homosexuals for sure - I’m sure the MtF ones would anyhow due to them being men who would be (happily) subservient to other men. That would make them much less threatening then say a homosexual man.

Most people will accept being shit on if they have someone that they themselves can shit on.

The insurrection in the USA is definitely significant though, basically a failed coup. Even hitler had a failed coup, the Russians too???

Personally I blame each and every billionaire in the world.

Am I totally off base in thinking TRA would probably do very well under a fascist dictatorship?

No, you are right, history proves there are a lot of regressive cultures with male trasvestism. From Cybeles cult, Iran, hijras in muslim India... even Mohammed the prophet wears womens clothes at some point.

likely fall of US democracy as we know it, and that we are barreling full steam toward a far right Christian

This seems like a wild fantasy. Maybe US would "fall" in the next years (meaning its not going to be world police anymore, yaay!) but this is just not going to happen lmao.

[–] Lilith-Fair -1 points Edited

TRAs do well with fascists? No, look up what happened under fascism. They put homosexuals and people with disabilities--basically anyone who's a "deviant"--in concentration camps. You all are conflating a bunch of stuff. Muslim countries have problems and are conservative for sure but they're not fascists.

Fascism doesn't mean national socialist /nazi. What facism means is a very complex historical and political discussion. I like (as other historians do) to define facism as an autoritharian compromise or in other words an union of conservatives and reactionary parts of society (in the 20th century it usually was the army, the monarchy or/and some part of the polititian/empresarial circles). Did nazis support transsexualism? No, yet they experimented with it. Could a facist government do well with the strict gender roles that underly transgenderism and the damage it produces to women reproductive rights, yes it would. A fascist dictatorship doesn't have to be the nazi or classic european type. That's why strict gender roles and the conversion of the homosexual under transgenderism would work well in a moder facist dictatorship.

[–] Lilith-Fair -1 points Edited

Go ahead then, define fascism. I happen to know quite a bit about fascism and simply being conservative/reactionary authoritarian is not enough. Fascism entails elements of extreme nationalism and a regimented society. TRAs and TIPs are polar opposite to anything regimented and they are some of the last people to come to mind to get all patriotic to the point of extreme nationalism. Portland anarchy is more like it.

ETA: You said "in the 20th century"...I don't know if you think fascism existed before the 20th century. It did not. It arose in the 20th century with Mussolini. It is entirely different from monarchy or other political systems. It is in fact a Western ideology that arose in Europe and existed pretty much in Europe only. And can you cite a source for Nazis experimenting with transgenderism? Transgenderism didn't exist until this past decade or two, although transexuals and cross-dressers did.

Regardless, trans ideology is very aligned with far right conservatism, yes, but not fascism. And that alignment aside, I don't see it likely that the far right would embrace trans ideology. They are the ones truly intolerant.