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How long before botox and lip fillers and liposuction become "gender affirming care for cisgirls" ? The premise of "cis" is that someone has a gender identity (femininity) that happens to align with her natal sex. But what if her body doesn't "reflect on the outside how feminine she feels on the outside"? They're going to be celebrating 13 year olds getting lip fillers and boob jobs, lobbying for insurance to cover it, and blocking parents from stopping it. I mean, the logic is exactly the same as the trans logic, so why couldn't that happen?

It gets back to logic--people won't fucking use it. People won't think out the consequences of their premises, or the logical misuses of their claims.

How long before botox and lip fillers and liposuction become "gender affirming care for cisgirls" ? The premise of "cis" is that someone has a gender identity (femininity) that happens to align with her natal sex. But what if her body doesn't "reflect on the outside how feminine she feels on the outside"? They're going to be celebrating 13 year olds getting lip fillers and boob jobs, lobbying for insurance to cover it, and blocking parents from stopping it. I mean, the logic is exactly the same as the trans logic, so why couldn't that happen? It gets back to logic--people won't fucking use it. People won't think out the consequences of their premises, or the logical misuses of their claims.

64 comments

[–] Starient ✨🦋👾 48 points

Something like this is already happening in entertainment.

I started noticing that girls and young women were looking a little strange. Different from when I was growing up (80s/90s). I didn't think much of it until I learned about Lorry Hill's youtube channel. Many girls now start cosmetic procedures when they are 13-18. Subtle nose jobs are especially popular, because people won't notice right away and think you are simply growing up. Same with filler in lips, chin and cheeks. Sometimes even subtle eye surgeries. If you compound these procedures together, you end up with someone who doesn't look quite right, a little uncanny.

It is so sad because these girls never had a chance. And the girls looking up to them will think this is how people are supposed to look.

Note: It's hard to recommend Hill's content because she is very pro-plastic surgery, but also her enthusiasm for the topic makes her and excellent resource for people who are wondering why women in the public eye look a little "off" these days,

Have you noticed how so many celebrities have the same face these days? It's weird as hell to me. Like there's only one face that's acceptable for women to have anymore. And sorry but it's not a natural face...

[–] Starient ✨🦋👾 17 points

Yes. Not just the big lips, but something called a “ponytail facelift”. Whether they have gotten it done or not, they are mostly all trying to imitate it. And YOUNG people are doing it, prepping themselves for a lifetime of maintenance so that they don’t start to look (even) weirder.

It's very Kardashian Lite™

Their popularity is waning, tho, and we're going to see a new face take it's place.

I personally haven't seen it waning but we shall see. I usually have little hope this will change because they can really suck a lot of money out of women when literally everything on us has to be surgically altered.

[–] crodish 🤡🌏 3 points Edited

Urgh god it's Korean parents giving their kids facial plastic surgeries as 16th birthday gifts all over again

It's so weird googling what Ariana Grande, Kim Kardashian, Kylie Jenner, Madonna, etc. looked like in 2006-2010 compared to now.

Ariana Grande recently got a facelift and it has sent her into uncanny valley territory and it makes me so sad! Imagine getting a facelift at 28!!

Just looked her up... wow... I'm used to seeing celebrities look strange due to image editing and the like, but I feel like I'm looking at a doll rather than a human.

(inb4 libfem comes and tells me to 'stop telling other women how to look'...)

I’ve seen “preventative Botox” marketed to college aged women! It’s insanity

I'm seriously considering it and I'm around the same age.

My male partner is 6 years older than me, but recently people have been guessing our ages as the same, with me 6 years older than I actually am. It's taken a huge toll on my mental health, honestly. I thought I still had a few good years left, but apparently not.

I'm waiting for the day someone calls me a cougar for dating an apparently younger looking man.

Edit: obviously I won't be doing it, mostly because I can't afford it, but because surgery also really scares me. I think the fact that you can still die during these surgeries is lost on a lot of young women.

They push getting it younger as "preventative care". You want the botox BEFORE you get wrinkles, so the wrinkles never have a chance to form.

[–] Starient ✨🦋👾 12 points

There is an irony, though, because the fillers make your skin wrinkle and sag faster. Drumming up business for themselves.

[–] Gladys_Kravitz 10 points Edited

Plus you're so blank looking!

I've got what I call JCFS, or "Jim Carrey Face Syndrome". It means my face is wildly expressive. I won't be able to do my wacky faces if I get botox.

When people get botox, their faces are so tight, frozen, and limited. It looks so stiff and uncomfortable. I feel like people don't take you seriously either, because they can't tell you're actually upset or angry because your face is frozen into one bored/demure looking expression.

I watch a body language expert on YouTube and he recently tried to do the Jamie Lynn Spears interview. He was very frustrated because she's 29 but had more work done than Joan Rivers.

He was really struggling to interpret her body language because her face literally didn't move. He complained that this was increasingly a problem in the body language community, and that human communication is actually being affected by all this face freezing cosmetic work.

Edit: I know men already don't believe us, but do you think the proliferation of bored frozen faces on women contributes to the idea that rape doesn't actually bother us? If a rape victim had plastic surgery done and isn't able to cry sufficiently due to the botox or whatever, it's used as more proof that we're either lying or don't actually care about sexual assault.

Oh and I like to point out that not only does it actually age you faster, the fillers never dissolve all the way. You end up with weird lumps in odd places all over your face, which will then require more cosmetic surgery to fix.

Damn, if I didn't have any morals I would be a plastic surgeon. They create the problems they "fix" half the time.

This reminds me of the book series by Scott Westerfeld: Uglies, Pretties, and Specials. It's about a dystopian future where everyone is considered ugly until they're able to have plastic surgery once they turn 16.

This is precisely the way it is in Brazil. The government will pay for all of this because it is causing you distress not to look like Kim Kardashian. Brazil has the highest rates of cosmetic surgery in the world as a result.

It probably won't be called that because health insurances would have to pay for it in that case.

Heck, I can't even get laser hair removal on health insurance, even though as a woman I am expected to remove all facial hair as often as needed so no man has to notice that I even grow it. But men get it as "gender affirming care". So yeah. I don't think they want to pay for that for women. Women have always had to pay for beauty treatments ourselves, despite men demanding them of us.

But yeah, girls who feel they have to compete against surgically altered males (who do not have female fat distribution and skin, and will look "better" because of that) are likely to get more surgery. Paid by themselves or their parents.

[–] Starient ✨🦋👾 30 points

girls who feel they have to compete against surgically altered males

You see this in make-up, it's been going on for a while. Women have been adopting techniques used by drag queens to make a male face look more feminine. Because a natural female face isn't even feminine enough anymore.

I'm not lying I actually get sad when I see a young woman wearing drag queen makeup while working behind a cashier counter at the local drugstore, or any retail store. It is such a common thing to see, and looks ridiculously clownish under normal lighting. You can blantantly see the countour lines, the layers, the points between where their actual eye brows end and the dark liner begins, the huge overlined gap between the lipstick and their actual lips. Those giant false eyelashes that are very clearly weighing down their eyelids. It's all so draggish and over the top, and I wonder why they feel that they need to look like a glamourized male who's trying to look female.

Can't you just claim to be trans? The doctors won't ask questions and if they do just threaten to get them fired. Seriously, what's stopping us from doing this?

"because health insurances would have to pay for it in that case." But that's the point--that's why they would call it that.

Plastic surgeons and their ilk can look to the trans lobby and observe that "affirming care" was a successful lobbying technique to get procedures covered. That equals more procedures, equals more money for surgeons, hospitals, and their retainer class (marketing, office overhead, post-of prescriptions). You think the insurance companies are the ones who want to pay for trans surgeries? That was the result of the trans-pharma-surgical complex doing lobbying. So the pharma-surgical-medical complex could just do the same thing for 'cis' girls. Then, after private insurance is captured, they can lobby for medicare/medicaid to pay for stuff. Just like Levine wants--he wants medicaid out there transing foster kids.

edit: medicare to medicaid. I think medicaid is what would cover foster kids.

Levine, LOL.

I’d pay out of my own pocket for that clown to get a decent haircut.

Can you imagine a woman in his position looking that gawdawful?

The facial surgeries are bad enough. What scares me is knowing teen girls are already allowed to go under the knife for labiaplasty and the like. Clearly medical professionals do not give a flying fart about preserving sexual function. It's going to get worse.

They know absolutely nothing about the nerve endings in that area. It's purely cosmetic. Many women say they can't feel anything down there afterwards.

As a flat-chested aging mom of three, I think that if it’s the right of a stunning and brave TIM to be not just any girl, but a “hot” one on the taxpayer dime, why isn’t it my right?

No one should feel like they need plastic surgery in this world but I think pushing this to the absurd is an essential argument. My breasts are smaller than some overweight cismen’s, and so by the definition of dysphoria I have it. By fulfilling sex roles (having babies) my tummy changed and no longer appears taut and toned and this makes me dysphoric too! I’m in my 30s and people just aren’t as nice to me as they were when I was in college and sexually available. Dysphoria!

The problem with this circular definition is that it makes the loop then stops. “Transwomen are women,” and end. It needs to keep going to expose the farce: “transwomen are women, are transwomen, are women, are transwomen”, and if transwomen are entitled to everything women have fought for to live their lives in safety and dignity, then women should be entitled to free titty cutlets and FFS in the name of gender affirmation. It’s only fair and if enough women demanded these things I’m sure it would roll back very quickly. Elective plastic surgery on healthy, whole bodies (however they might fall short of personal preference or current beauty standards) is always an exercise in affluent vanity and therefore costs a lot. No organization or government could justify that expense for everyone.

Right, that's why I called it an argument pushed to the absurd. This movement is defined by shifting goalposts and morphing definitions, and endless infighting between people who can't agree on who even has or needs dysphoria.

I appreciate the link, but I've seen it already and in fact commented on it a couple of days ago. I wish Joey all the best.

Oh yep there it is lol whoops.

I just wanted to make the point that gender dysphoria is real even though a lot of people who don't have it co-opt the term.

I got an TRA arguing this very thing to me on Twitter right now. In their minds, transwomen’s pursuit of body modification isn’t bad or regressive. Why? Because women get breast augmentation and other procedures too. As long as “ciswomen” do something, then there are no issues if they do it too. This is how transtrenders (those who deny dysphoria) justify everything. Its “You are free to look as butch as you want in the locker room because lesbians do it all the time!” logic.

They want to characterize women’s cosmetic surgeries as gender affirming the same way they claim their procedures are, but this attempt epically fails because society doesn’t view boob jobs for women that way. No one in their right mind would say women need breast jobs to live authentic lives or keep them from committing suicide. If a small breasted women wants a boob job, she is expected to pay for it herself. Fake boobs are often seen as vain and attention-seeking when women get them, not stunning and brave. Teen girls are dissuaded from getting them and will have their priorities in life seriously questioned for wanting them. It is universally understood that social pressure and unrealistic standards of beauty push women to get these surgeries, not innate gender feels.

So I’m happy that this is the direction TRAs are going in with their arguments, because it highlights the consumeristic shallowness of their cause. It’s one thing to argue “dysphoria makes me need this surgery”! But if their argument becomes “let’s blindly celebrate any person pumping their bodies up with industrial grade silicon to effect a feminine body, even if it’s your impressionable kid”, then peakage is going to come quick.

I was going to make a similar point, i.e. that the trans goal is to be superficially and artificially attractive, because that's what women, girls, and, to some extent, men have been achieving through the wonders of botox, surgery, etc., for decades. So it's nothing new for "cis" girls to want to look like porn stars. If they start insisting on getting insurance to cover this "affirming" care, things could get pretty interesting.

lmao that means I can get electrolysis for my few spiky chin hairs covered by insurance because it causes me gender dysphoria.

I have a very square torso with zero curves. For about 15 years I was obsessed with the idea of getting ribs removed to have an actual waist. I can picture that becoming part of "gender affirming care".

Most of that dysphoria was encouraged by that stupid saying "real women have curves" and "only dogs like bones".

[–] real_feminist 7 points Edited

Some of the libfems already claim that plastic surgery et al is 'empowering' without calling it gender-affirming.

so, is "gender affirming care' for trans people covered by insurance?

In some states, yes. That is the purpose of calling it health care, rather than cosmetic surgery. Can you imagine if cosmetic surgeons pull the same rhetorical tricks by using phrases like "cisgirls need to have their gender identity align with their body"? Then botox becomes "gender affirming care."

OMG follow the money indeed.

Insurance companies might soon be overwhelmed though, thus peaking them! We need corporate on our side.

I have terrible TMJ pain. Botox is a recognized treatment, for some people one or two treatments stops the problem permanently. I wasn't so lucky, but each treatment give me several months of relief. I had to stop because insurance wouldn't cover it, I couldn't use money from my flex spending account and it just got too expensive compared to muscle relaxants and migraine meds.

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