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I once said, to a male friend (he is not particularly TRA, he does not think that TWAW), that I do not 'feel like a woman', I just am one.

"Wouldn't that make you non-binary if you don't feel like a woman?"

At that moment I had an epiphany, the whole non-binary shtick and to an extent women being converted into TIFs. It made sense. I'm very sure this isn't a unique revelation though, but once you spot it it just fits.

They're trying to weed out the women who are less likely to be fuckable. They're trying to convert women who don't want to be props or don't conform or don't "FEEL" 'girly' or 'womanly' into non binaries and TIFs so they can CATEGORIZE us into 'fuckable' and not. Conforming and not. The good ones and the dissenters.

It is so STRANGE to think, that even men who aren't full on TRAs, somehow don't understand the whole underlying message. Or perhaps they do, they're just all liars.

Have you had any experiences, especially with men or female TRA handmaidens, with this 'non binary'/TIF/not feeling like a woman topic?

I once said, to a male friend (he is not particularly TRA, he does not think that TWAW), that I do not 'feel like a woman', I just am one. "Wouldn't that make you non-binary if you don't feel like a woman?" At that moment I had an epiphany, the whole non-binary shtick and to an extent women being converted into TIFs. It made sense. I'm very sure this isn't a unique revelation though, but once you spot it it just *fits*. They're trying to weed out the women who are less likely to be fuckable. They're trying to convert women who don't want to be props or don't conform or don't "FEEL" 'girly' or 'womanly' into non binaries and TIFs so they can CATEGORIZE us into 'fuckable' and not. Conforming and not. The good ones and the dissenters. It is so STRANGE to think, that even men who aren't full on TRAs, somehow don't understand the whole underlying message. Or perhaps they do, they're just all liars. Have you had any experiences, especially with men or female TRA handmaidens, with this 'non binary'/TIF/not feeling like a woman topic?

41 comments

You're correct. I'm an unfuckable butch lesbian. People try to convert me to nonbinaryism every week.

[–] Toastian [OP] 12 points Edited

The intellectual dissonance is huge, lesbians are only women who love women, how the hell can you be non-binary ('neither woman or man') ? The hell??? I'm sorry about your troubles with this bull.

[–] PGTips4Lyfe 🐸☕🤏 1 points

At this point I'd relish the chance to have someone try to convert me irl because I would completely destroy them logically now that I've peaked.

Good luck, sis; in my experience logic doesn't work on them. 😂

[–] PGTips4Lyfe 🐸☕🤏 1 points

It does work, they stop or they get angrier. The angrier they get the more proof something has hit them in their subconscious, even though they'll not acknowledge it. I have had some irl conversations with TRAs where they got raging, screaming mad at me and in psychology that's called an "extinction event." Imho growing up in a cult, those people are often destined to leave, whether it takes 5 years or 20 years. None have tried to convert me yet though and I relish the chance, and frankly I think conversion attempts may be more well-meaning but easily peak-able than those who come to me already calling me a TERF.

I question them until they breakdown with their own stupidity. I let them dig their own holes, that seems to be very effective imho. Just asking "whats a nonbinary" and "how can you tell if someone else is nonbinary" and "is there any objective critiera that makes you nonbinary?" And how can you be a nonbinary if you are imposing another binary by saying you are either non or binary?" Etc...

It's not just about fuckability either. If a woman stops identifying as a woman she can also no longer be a feminist in any meaningful way. She has separated herself from other women and their concerns and problems. And since she isn't a woman anymore (theoretically) feminist concerns are no longer hers.

[–] bumpyjerboa 12 points Edited

Exactly. Non-binarism is a way to break female class solidarity. The only way we can work towards liberation is as a united front. The patriarchy is very good at getting women to betray their sisters and own interests in favor of those of males; this is yet another facet of that.

[–] [Deleted] 5 points Edited

Female class solidarity doesn't exist though. Women have torn me down my whole life. Most women prioritize the men in their lives over other women. We don't even need non binary to break a non existent phenomenon.

[–] Nediljka_Orwell PITA crone 1 points

Yep. Opting out and copping out. I'm neither/nor, so it's not "my lane".

“I don’t believe in gender”.

I’ve seen this statement from gender critical and NB identified people alike. The difference seems to be, 100%, that the gender criticals believe that gender expectations and stereotypes hurt everyone (but especially women, the reproductive class, who is beneficial for the patriarchy to control.)

NBs think that they, alone, are special for being hurt by these rules. They are akin to deserters leaving an army, instead of standing to fight these expectations and stereotypes in solidarity with other women. I have nothing but contempt for them because it’s absolutely to divide and conquer. What must they think of women? That they’re fools for their frivolous girly interests and opting into their own oppression?

[–] PGTips4Lyfe 🐸☕🤏 3 points

NB's internalize (unconsciously) whatever it is about them that was rejected by society for not fitting in, and act as if confirming to the world that they are some type of "other" is actually going to change anything at all. No, dear, you're confirming to society that you're some kind of "unwoman" because you don't fit into a narrow definition.

Even if that was the goal it hasn't worked that way. In my experience I've seen some very attractive women say they're NB.

Girls these days are exposed to a lot of porn and think they are expected to be like those women. Porn shows women enjoying being slapped, strangled, spat on, degraded, and generally abused. This is what they think is expected from them once they become sexually mature. The boys think this is what girls are really like too, and they are expecting girls to act like this on the first date and to be gagging for it via text before they have even met. The girls may think that because they don't want what the porn performers are getting that they aren't like other girls, or they may be repulsed by the expectations that they should emulate porn and so decide to opt out of womanhood altogether and claim to be NB or even trans to escape this abuse.

[–] real_feminist 6 points Edited

You are right that they are trying to separate us and encourage internalized misogyny, but I don't agree with the lines that you're drawing. I think it's more about different tactics of control.

The women who go along with gender norms are controllable in one way.

The women who don't go along get put into another category -- it used to be Not-Like-Other-Girls and now it's TIFs and Non-binary. This second group of women is included with the men in some ways but it's entirely conditional on them going along with all the misogyny and hating on other women.

They will happily fuck and control both groups. Usually they want to marry the first group and turn them into domestic slaves. By pitting us against each other, they can control all of us because we compete against each other for their approval.

The only way that we win is to have each other's backs and not seek their approval. The femmes and the butches need to both support each other. The married women and the single women. The moms and the childfree. The skinny women and the fat women. Those who wear makeup and heels and those who don't. etc.

Yes, control is another aspect too I hadn't thought about but totally fits in as well in this idea. We need to stick together.

[–] shewolfoffrance 🦕 30 points Edited

I was thinking about this in relation to all that dehumanizing "inclusive" language. "Pregnant people", "menstruators", and "uterus-owners" carve up women into separate, smaller groups. True, not all women get pregnant, menstruate, or have hysterectomies. But this kind of language obscures the fact that half the world has unique struggles and needs rooted in their female-sexed bodies. Not because they love babies and shopping or [insert gender stereotype of choice].

It's another tactic men are employing to prevent women from having a sex-class identity and class consciousness, which they are desperate not deny us. The we had (briefly) some semblance of class consciousness, we accomplished the most we'd ever had in the shortest amount of time ever They didn't like that. That's why we need to go back to the feminist "consciousness raising" roots. It was super effective.

It's a lot to do with internalised misogyny as well I think. Some people want to identify out of their oppression. It's easier to perform being non-binary than it is to fight for political and social change.

It's legit scary being a young woman nowadays.i have a bit of sympathy but I'm still annoyed with them!

It's seeking an individual (non-) solution to a class-wide problem, but women are denied a class identity and class consciousness, so these individual solutions, IDing as a gender special, shaving legs, wearing makeup (when not required for work), etc., seem to be the only "solution" to fighting/surviving comfortably in a male supremacist society.

Yes, you're exactly right. And they start you out with "anyone can be nonbinary! Be gender-fluid, agender, whatever you want to be! Whatever makes you comfortable! Experiment, have fun! Welcome to the LGBTQIAA+!!"
And then once you're "in," the pressure slowly creeps in. "So how long have you been binding? Wait, you don't bind? But you are on T, right? Well when are you starting T, then? Oh, I thought you were a transman, I didn't realize you were 'just' nonbinary."
But by that point your parents already hate you, your old friends think you're a crazy asshole, so you're forced to conform and desperately try to keep your new "glitter family" from disowning you. And you can't un-ring the bell of having "come out" to your friends and family as nonbinary and forcing them to use new pronouns. You can't undo the damage and go back to your old identity. But if you go on T, just maybe they'll start to take your new identity a little more seriously.
It's a slippery slope.

[–] Stealthygal 18 points Edited

No but I think it's coming from women themselves, not externally - other than the idea of being non-binary. A lot of women connect very strongly with the idea that they don't FEEL like a woman, or that sometimes they FEEL like a man, or like something between. If they didn't they would reject non-binary out of hand. See also "genderqueer". I understand this feeling. I also understand that the thing that makes me a woman is my body, not facets of my personality and fantasy life.

But that's the problem really, how do you know you feel like x if you haven't been anything else than x to compare the feeling to?

Exactly. We do have feelings, but those aren't necessarily tied to the physicality of our bodies. We might aspire to be like the opposite sex, or fantasise about how it would be to have male parts and sleep with men. That doesn't make us men. Or nonbinary. It makes us creative thinkers. I don't have a penis and would probably be a bit freaked out if I ACTUALLY woke up with one, much as the idea is intriguing.

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