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Update 9 Mar 2022: Genspect has since published an official rebuttal to (but not specifically to) Karen's claims that their organization is linked with pedophilia. I've no doubt this will result in Karen doing another "takedown" style video nitpicking every paragraph apart to justify her views, but I'm personally not gonna watch it.

https://genspect.org/genspect-rebuttal/

https://archive.ph/4yA3K

The big “smoking gun”, as it were, is that our founder Stella O’Malley co-hosts a podcast Gender: A Wider Lens with Sasha Ayad. Sasha and Stella are exploring the pioneers of gender research in this podcast, and have carried out a series of interviews with experts in the field, such as Dr Paul Vasey, Dr Ken Zucker, Dr Susan Bradley, Dr Rittakerttu Kaltiala, Dr Annelou de Vries, Dr Thomas Steensma, Dr Michael Bailey and Dr Ray Blanchard, among others. To be explicit, none of the people named in the list above are part of Genspect, nor have they ever had any connection with Genspect. Nonetheless, these interviews have been incredibly informative, and Genspect is proud to sponsor this podcast.

Scientific enquiry is the basis of the most progressive thought, and this podcast is presenting the most wide-ranging and informative takes on gender that we know of. At Genspect, we strongly reject the concept of guilt by association, as would anyone who has any knowledge of history. Merely watching a stage production of The Crucible should suffice to justify this position. Frankly, it’s profoundly inappropriate for anybody to accuse Genspect – or anyone else – of links with so-called “pedo apologists” on such a flimsy basis. We request that we are judged by our work and not by vague and tenuous links to people whom Stella and Sasha have interviewed on their wide-ranging and very helpful podcast. Given that the podcast’s many guests would disagree with one another fervently and passionately on many matters, the flaw in the “guilt by association” model should be clear. Genspect fully supports Stella and Sasha in their excellent work with regard to gender issues.

==Original Post==

I've just found Karen Davis's YT content and I've also been catching up on Exulansic's stuff on Odysee.

I'm having a lot of trouble following the discourse: I have trouble digesting the way Karen presents (she comes on VERY strong and "unmovable" for me?) and I love Exulansic, but I normally have to listen to her videos 2-3 times before I can absorb it.

But now there's that and like... the number of people involved? Genspect, Gender Dysphoria Alliance, Aaron Kimberly, Dennis Noel Kavanagh, Morty Arty... I can't keep up with all the beef going on between all these different people, and somewhere somehow something about CAIS discourse? And Genspect got Exulansic kicked off youtube? And Aaron Kimberly and Dennis Kavanagh have something against Karen? And apparently now PITT (Parents with Inconvenient Truths about Trans)??

All I'm getting is that AK (TIF) and DK (gay) are "GC but still pro-trans" somehow, Genspect, GDA, PITT are "GC but pro-detrans and therefore still retain some TRA ways of thinking", and both Exulansic and KD are like "super hardcore TERFS" hence the clashes, and the CAIS/intersex community are mad at Exulansic for saying CAIS are male.

I just.... my fucking normie head OTL

Apologies if this isn't the right circle, I wasn't sure where else to post it.

**Update 9 Mar 2022:** Genspect has since published an official rebuttal to (but not specifically to) Karen's claims that their organization is linked with pedophilia. I've no doubt this will result in Karen doing another "takedown" style video nitpicking every paragraph apart to justify her views, but I'm personally not gonna watch it. https://genspect.org/genspect-rebuttal/ https://archive.ph/4yA3K >The big “smoking gun”, as it were, is that our founder Stella O’Malley co-hosts a podcast Gender: A Wider Lens with Sasha Ayad. Sasha and Stella are exploring the pioneers of gender research in this podcast, and have carried out a series of interviews with experts in the field, such as Dr Paul Vasey, Dr Ken Zucker, Dr Susan Bradley, Dr Rittakerttu Kaltiala, Dr Annelou de Vries, Dr Thomas Steensma, Dr Michael Bailey and Dr Ray Blanchard, among others. **To be explicit, none of the people named in the list above are part of Genspect, nor have they ever had any connection with Genspect.** Nonetheless, these interviews have been incredibly informative, and Genspect is proud to sponsor this podcast. >Scientific enquiry is the basis of the most progressive thought, and this podcast is presenting the most wide-ranging and informative takes on gender that we know of. **At Genspect, we strongly reject the concept of guilt by association, as would anyone who has any knowledge of history.** Merely watching a stage production of The Crucible should suffice to justify this position. Frankly, it’s profoundly inappropriate for anybody to accuse Genspect – or anyone else – of links with so-called “pedo apologists” on such a flimsy basis. **We request that we are judged by our work and not by vague and tenuous links to people whom Stella and Sasha have interviewed on their wide-ranging and very helpful podcast.** Given that the podcast’s many guests would disagree with one another fervently and passionately on many matters, the flaw in the “guilt by association” model should be clear. Genspect fully supports Stella and Sasha in their excellent work with regard to gender issues. ==Original Post== I've just found [Karen Davis's YT content](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYj9xEuFEQORfVK3k1kPxQw) and I've also been catching up on [Exulansic's stuff on Odysee](https://odysee.com/@Exulansic:d). I'm having a lot of trouble following the discourse: I have trouble digesting the way Karen presents (she comes on VERY strong and "unmovable" for me?) and I love Exulansic, but I normally have to listen to her videos 2-3 times before I can absorb it. But now there's that and like... the number of people involved? Genspect, Gender Dysphoria Alliance, Aaron Kimberly, Dennis Noel Kavanagh, Morty Arty... I can't keep up with all the beef going on between all these different people, and somewhere somehow something about CAIS discourse? And Genspect got Exulansic kicked off youtube? And Aaron Kimberly and Dennis Kavanagh have something against Karen? And apparently now PITT (Parents with Inconvenient Truths about Trans)?? All I'm getting is that AK (TIF) and DK (gay) are "GC but still pro-trans" somehow, Genspect, GDA, PITT are "GC but pro-detrans and therefore still retain some TRA ways of thinking", and both Exulansic and KD are like "super hardcore TERFS" hence the clashes, and the CAIS/intersex community are mad at Exulansic for saying CAIS are male. I just.... my fucking normie head OTL Apologies if this isn't the right circle, I wasn't sure where else to post it.

30 comments

I can’t keep up with all the infighting either so I’ve lost interest. I watched a lot of these channels for a while, when I felt like I needed to binge GC content. But then I had my fill and realized I was spending too much time on it.

[–] KissMyOvaries 16 points Edited

KD encourages bullying in her comments. I stopped watching her as a result. It made me realize she’s a SJW, just a GC one.

Edit. She’s also joined another radfem type site, hated the way things simply were, threw a fit, and left. I think she wants things the way she wants them an is inflexible.

I don't talk about it. I don't want to give her what she wants. KD is self-absorbed. There is so much brilliant new GC content every day. Videos, articles, twitter. Not wasting time with this unnecessary drama.

I think you're doing things right by not being involved and suggest you continue not to get distracted by it. It's a waste of everyone's time and there are bigger fish to fry.

KD is hilarious so I watch her sometimes. I think she doesn’t know where to set differences aside. Like the GC community is so small we HAVE to band together not infight over petty things and ad hominem attacks.

The internet and social media platforms tend to create and incentivize drama, which is unfortunate and actually a danger to our long-term success. We need people to be making content that explains these confusing issues to normies in a way that is not alienating or impenetrable. The drama may drive views in the short-term but in the long term this stuff will repel people from joining our movement for reality and common sense.

When I was first peaking two years ago, I found Arty Morty's videos and watching them allowed me to start to question things without thinking I was an evil bigot.

If I had gone straight to Exulansic from the beginning (if her videos had existed then) I don't know how I would have reacted. Of course, now I think she's brilliant and I am so angry that she was banned. (Although I still don't think her position on CAIS is humane or strategic.) But thinking back on my own trajectory, I see how important it is to have moderate voices who can help people understand reality without throwing them right into the deep end. We can never forget how shocking it is to deprogram yourself from this cult.

I'm very disturbed by the trend to police the purity of GC leaders. Institutions like Genspect and PITT are doing important work breaking through to mental health professionals, journalists, and other leaders. Certain opportunists out there are seeking to build clout by stirring up drama with these groups and IMO it's very counterproductive. A movement for reality and common sense needs to be somewhat mainstream and diverse, not an insular subculture full of conflict and personal beefs.

Unfortunately, commercialized social media platforms thrive on engagement, and drama is peak engagement. Even if people are cognizant of that or don't make money off of it, these platforms are structured to promote drama.

The core issues are actually worth discussing though. How to separate trans from DSD? Complete ban on childhood "transition"? How to recognize a child who identifies as trans because of family abuse? Are paraphilias innate and immutable? (...)

For the last question for example, this appears to be the position of leading (male) sexologists. While they agree on the existence of AGP, they support "transition" because they think the paraphilia can't be changed. They think pedophiles need "support" networks. I guess going into sexology requires or fosters sympathy for male perversion. But it's up to others to reduce the harm resulting from it.

That's actually an important issue and raising it isn't the problem. Rather I think it's the form in which these debates take place.So it's not surprising there's too much "content" for you to keep up.

[–] lucrecia 8 points Edited

It's frustrating because I think it's a leap to go from 'paraphilias are innate' to 'paraphilias are innate and immutable', to the normative claim of what we should do. (My own position is that some are innate, none are immutable because literally no aspect of one's personality is immutable (but the methods required to change them may be so destructive it's more ethical not to; I don't think that's clear yet), and that these ('transition', 'networks') are the wrong ways to address them because they either don't work or make things worse.) I think it's fair to say I've never seen this discussed intelligently on the internet and don't expect to see it discussed intelligently on the internet, or possibly anywhere.

I tried to enter the field of sexology professionally as a researcher and.... It's basically impossible to get into that field professionally safely while contesting this stuff. Critical sexology is basically our only hope and doing research outside of academia.

The main issue with the sexologist stance is that women are just supposed to shut up and pretend that TIMs are really women and how dare we have our own needs and center ourselves when MEN ARE SUFFERING.

[–] furyosa no, thank you 6 points

Personally I love the way Karen presents. She is very clear about what her boundaries are; what she's willing to set aside as an agree-to-disagree opinion and what's not negotiable. Otherwise I think you summarized the situation well, although I think it's unfair to frame Karen and Sierra as "super hardcore". I would rather say that they're very clear about what their boundaries are and what's not negotiable in terms of those boundaries.

Yeah i started out somewhat critical with her from reading some opinions here but i changed my mind. I completely agree with her that no "virtuous pedophile" or "trutrans" are an ally of mine. And the TIF connection is now trying to get Karen Davis banned so that shows doubly so that trans people cannot be trusted as any kind of ally, GC or radfem.

Exulansic has her head screwed on right. She doesn't pull any punches, but she does not do petty drama. This Genspect person needs to pull her head out of her rear. Not invested in the CAIS issue, very much invested in the fact that Exulansic has been the best at articulating the damage that is done to underage transitioners and people doing SRS or FFS type surgeries

Lol, just focus on the ideas and not who's saying them.

I don't watch a lot of breadtubers, of any variety, just because I greatly prefer reading articles.

No one will ever be the perfect articulator of everything and it is sad if people are tying themselves into knots trying to claim that.

Online brainrot comes for us all, but especially those of us who base self-worth on views and follower counts.

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