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So, it has come to this.

I first heard of this depravity when I saw this photo set on Instagram. I thought that while this is definitely fetishistic, surely this is just a photo, just ~art~ (using that term loosely), and they wouldn't actually subject a poor infant to that.

But of course they would.

Found this tweet today and it turns out, TIMs pump themselves with hormones to induce lactation, AND actually feeding their fluids to babies.

I'm scaling a whole new peak with this one.

So, it has come to this. I first heard of this depravity when I saw [this photo set](https://www.instagram.com/p/CABYnMAAcLI/) on Instagram. I thought that while this is definitely fetishistic, surely this is just a photo, just ~art~ (using that term loosely), and they wouldn't actually subject a poor infant to that. But of course they would. Found [this tweet](https://twitter.com/okbillybunny/status/1290379480482029568) today and it turns out, TIMs pump themselves with hormones to induce lactation, AND actually feeding their fluids to babies. I'm scaling a whole new peak with this one.

59 comments

[–] briababieee 54 points (+54|-0)

Where the hell are the actual mothers to these babies? How much brainwashing have they been put through to think that this is okay??

Also one of the replies to the tweet says ‘I want to do this now, mostly as a power move.’ Excuse me?? You’re going to use a poor innocent baby so you can make a ‘power move’ and feel validated?! That’s sick on so many levels.

[–] RealMapelFlavour 17 points (+18|-1)

When you're so low on, and defined by, the patriarchy's hierarchy that you take out your frustration by abusing infants.

[–] wildpansy 15 points (+15|-0)

Nah, they're no victims, they get boners when they breastfeed. It's a fetish. The infant to them is nothing more than a prop to use for their pleasure. They shouldn't be allowed anywhere near children with that mindset, too bad society puts a grown man's genderfeels over the welfare of babies.

[–] DetectiveMills 33 points (+33|-0)

.While TIMs on hormones may produce a 'milk like substance' from their breasts, it is full of hormones and whatever other medications they are on and not suitable for infant consumption.

But 'validation' is worth more than the health of a baby, right? /s

[–] Peachy 24 points (+24|-0)

It's child endangerment. Whatever fluid (ew) they produce is not enough to nurture a child, and will most likely cause deficiency or worst case illness because of the drugs and chemicals TIMs use.

[–] briababieee 20 points (+20|-0)

Women can’t even be on most medications for psychiatric conditions while breastfeeding because it’s not safe for the baby ffs, I can’t imagine how TRAs think a shitton of hormones could be remotely safe. Let alone, y’know, nourishing.

[–] shveya 16 points (+16|-0)

Yet when a woman uses drugs whilst breastfeeding, she's treated like a criminal.

[–] BurnBooker 8 points (+8|-0)

People still side eye nursing mothers for drinking coffee. Having a beer or two. Women's bodies and choices are constantly under scrutiny.

[–] LasagnaRossa 6 points (+6|-0)

Indeed!

My sister in law must watch out her food all the time because "onions can make a disgusting milk", "no pepper please! You know, the milk..." and then I should believe that a hormone pumped man is going to make a suitable baby milk??? FOOLS

[–] RisingUp 33 points (+33|-0)

Oh god. The gross stillbirth fetishist (yes. really. I KNOW) who was posted here a few weeks back put a picture online of his "milk." That guy was looking for an actual baby to fulfil his breastfeeding fetish too, though thankfully there is no indication he found one.

Needless to say his "milk" looked nothing like actual breastmilk, it was more like a glass of coagulated pus.

If some TIMs have found real life babies to act out this fetish with I cannot BEAR to think what they are consuming.

[–] shveya 17 points (+17|-0)

I am in a Facebook group with a woman who was in the stillbirth Facebook group that he was part of. Almost all of the women in the stillbirth group were angry with her and flaming her for trying to explain why what he was doing is wrong. Handmaidens are so insanely outta pocket right now that I wouldn't be shocked if one of them offered her infant to him.

[–] blahblahgcer 4 points (+4|-0)

P sure I read on kiwifarms that some did offer. Can't believe it.

[–] RisingUp 4 points (+4|-0)

I saw that but I think those women were conveniently geographically exempt, and were ever so kindly saying they'd lend him their babies if only they were closer. So, encouraging him to hassle other mothers, and giving him material to manipulate them with, but not actually offering up their own children as fetish objects.

Hate women who throw other women to these dickwolves.

[–] bellatrixbells 2 points (+2|-0)

"A glass of coagulated pus"

Not blaming you, but not something I needed to hear. Ever. Why ???????

[–] RisingUp 3 points (+3|-0)

Oh I know - I genuinely retched at the sight of it. I don't know why the women in that group didn't tell him to go to a goddamn doctor instead of saying "that's so much more milk than most new mothers make." Yes, no kidding! BECAUSE IT'S NOT MILK.

[–] Cornelia241 23 points (+23|-0) Edited

I am currently in second day postpartum. Baby is learning to feed. Fucking TIMs you will never NEVER get to know what is like to push out a baby. Deal with it. I can't believe how angry this makes me!!!!! Imagine using such an innocent creature as a baby for a disgusting perverted fetish !! edit out of pure anger: you will never know what is like to have your uterus painfully contract while the newborn does the most marvelous thing you have ever seen. Ugh I better stop. This is probably just wank material for TiMs. Second edit: I reported the picture as child porn.

[–] mountainwitch 6 points (+6|-0)

Congratulations on your little one! The first three months are rough but you can do it! I had a c-section and may never experience contractions either, but yeah they definitely don't understand motherhood and they are evil as hell to use babies for their selfish validation.

[–] Cornelia241 2 points (+2|-0)

Thanks! Oh c-section is rough as hell! My sister had three and it is seriously no fun either. This is my second but it feels like starting all over again. But you know, those are the details TiMs don't include in their fantasies. The pain, the stretch marks , the giving away your body , the lost of your former life, the months of insomnia...

[–] MsTig0 6 points (+6|-0)

Congratulations! Carrying, birthing and finally feeding a baby with your own body is such an amazing, amazing thing. Males have no idea (and they never will).

[–] KoffieHamster 3 points (+3|-0) Edited

I reported the picture as child porn.

Good idea, I didn't realize I could do that and will also be doing so right now!

[–] bellatrixbells 2 points (+2|-0)

"I can't believe how angry this makes me !!!!"

I can. Trust me, you're legit.

[–] Spott8ni 23 points (+23|-0)

I just googled "woman breastfeeding" images and found that most of the photos involve "non sexy" clothed poses of women and infants. The very few that involved full nudity were tasteful, mostly profile depictions. I only looked at one page worth, so it may go downhill after that, I don't know. It is noteworthy though, that in comparison to the OP photos here, those photos of women breastfeeding depicted just that; breastfeeding full stop. Why is this man trying to suggest that he is nude under a sheet? Why is there a shot of most of his bare buttocks included with his breastfeeding? Why is the nearly dead, jaded, vacuous stare that passes for a come hither look in these porn saturated days the expression worn by this man while breastfeeding? This is a clear mixing of purpose and I don't like the conflation of the two. It brings to mind a scene from the text of "Dracula" by Bram Stoker in which the vampire is feeding blood to Mina through a wound in his chest. I feel a bit sick now.

[–] bumpyjerboa 19 points (+19|-0)

Why is there a shot of most of his bare buttocks included with his breastfeeding?

It's such a slap in the face to every woman who has fed her baby in the toilets or with a cloth covering them up because breastfeeding is "obscene".

[–] Spott8ni 8 points (+8|-0)

Agreed. So much is made of women doing this in public, partly because women's breasts are so sexualized. Now, here a man intentionally sexualizes the act.

[–] cokolada90 2 points (+2|-0)

Why is this man trying to suggest that he is nude under a sheet? Why is there a shot of most of his bare buttocks included with his breastfeeding? Why is the nearly dead, jaded, vacuous stare that passes for a come hither look in these porn saturated days the expression worn by this man while breastfeeding?

We know why :) psycho-social AGP!

[–] Verdandi 15 points (+15|-0) Edited

At this point I think we need to seriously start contacting local authorities of these men. They're sexually assaulting infants, he's forcing an infant to suck on his nipples for sexual pleasure.

[–] antandro 12 points (+16|-4) Edited

Sadly, being Twitter, the comments are divided between "Uhh no it ain't!" and "Duh yes it is!". The only actual paper that I've seen on it is this. I am entirely unqualified to actually understand the depth (or superficiality) of that paper, but would any medical professionals in our community like to have a go and tell us what it means?

Speaking entirely from a scientific point of view, however, there is one case study; I've looked for related papers with others, but drawn a blank. It is clear that more research must be conducted here. A sample size of one is anecdotal. Leaving aside the trans angle entirely, I can imagine situations and cultures in which it might be preferable for such breastfeeding to occur, and it is scientifically interesting to know whether the expressed fluid is actually something that has reasonable nutritional value, and how it differs from female breast milk. Assuming that it is a viable option, the ultimate beneficiary is the child, and perhaps even the mother who may feel more free to work or pursue other activities when another person can take care of feeding of the baby. If viable, it might give some more options to parents, especially those from poorer backgrounds.

Ethically, it seems to me that this is (at best) an experimental thing that is not shown to be in the best interests of the child. Other options, such as formula, are available. The assertion that "trans women can breastfeed" is an ideological one, a hypothesis that is in need of testing. Ethically, it seems to me that doing this right now borders on child abuse, just as bad as forcing a newborn to subsist on some homemade concoction that may technically appear to sustain them, but may be missing important components that they would get from formula or breast milk. The arrogance and ideological blindness of a parent who is willing to subject their own child to this is ... astounding. Child abuse, or very close to it.

The social aspects of "can a TiM breastfeed in public" are basically uninteresting to me because I feel that they are overshadowed by the rights of the child. Sure, discuss the social aspects, but after the best interests of the child are looked after.

[–] Willow9 11 points (+12|-1)

Thank you for articulating exactly what I also think about this issue. You said it all about the ethical contradictions of said research.

I am entirely unqualified to actually understand the depth (or superficiality) of that paper, but would any medical professionals in our community like to have a go and tell us what it means?

I can try as a medical student talking about the "science" involved. About the safety of the medication used:

1- domperidone and spironolactone are considered safe in breastfeeding by my country equivalent of the FDA, however both are used as off-label drugs, the first is an antiemetic, and the second a antihypertensive, which brings to question their safety to the trans person itself.

2- hormones: I am no endocrinologist but I know breastfeeding women aren't allowed to use the common pill (oral, estradiol + progesterone) due to the estradiol, for two reasons: 1) back when the pill used high dosages of estradiol which induced feminization of the infant, now a days it's uncertain whether this still is possible 2) etinilestradiol, mestranol, estradiol pill types seem to reduce lactation and raise concerns about the baby nutrition and thus aren't considered safe. Thus, by analogy, what I don't get it is how the patient continuous administration of estrogen allows him produce sufficient amount of lactation (?), I also can't tell if the hormone levels presented in exams is a cause of concern for feminization of the baby (?).

3- the patient refers occasional use of zolpidem and clonazepam for psychiatric reasons, both aren't considered safe in lactation and it wasn't discussed if their use was suspended or not.

About the safety of the baby. That's all the article provides us:

Three and a half months after she had started the mentioned regimen, the baby was born weighing 6 lbs 13 oz. The patient breastfed exclusively for 6 weeks. During that time the child’s pediatrician reported that the child’s growth, feeding, and bowel habits were developmentally appropriate.

1) We aren't given objective evidence of normal baby's growth and development other than a OK from a pediatrician that wasn't cited as a collaborator in the research. We should at least have the weight gain per week, during those 6 weeks, in comparison with baby breastfed by women, general labs exams to asses overall health, and hormone dosage of androgens/estrogens over time.

2) We should also have an analysis of the components of the "milk" in comparison to the milk females produce. Exclusive breastfeeding is only possible because of the high nutritional value of the milk in the first 6 months in comparison to the needs of the child. Cow's milk won't do, or any milk produced by other animal, and sometimes we have to explain this to the mother. If we have no way to tell if this "milk" is nutritionally equivalent to that of female humans than by no means this research is safe to the child's health.

3) There's no information about the frequency and the duration of the "breastfeeding". It is recommended to be on demand in the first 6 months and should last for at least 20 minutes. Anything other than that might starve the baby, a concern that increases way more if we don't know how nutritious is the milk.

Conflicts of interest:

1) How can we guarantee any of the patient's claims in the research? The patient is very interested in the outcome of the research ("yes, transwomen can breastfed"), shouldn't we monitor their actions, or at least bring this point into question? Where's our guarantee that the patient didn't buy and prepare formula to feed the child?

2) The authors seem to be related to a Transgender Health center, which also makes them very interested in the outcome of the research.

About level of evidence. One case studies are the lowest evident in scientific research, but we also have plenty of random points in Discussion that would make anyone question the quality of the article, such as:

Breast milk contains secretory IgA, anti-inflammatory agents, and other immunomodulators that give breastfed infants immunological advantages relative to formula-fed infants.

True, for women. Are they claiming the "milk" produced have the same properties? Where's the analysis of its components?

In addition, breastfeeding offers economic advantages by allowing families to save resources that might be devoted to formula and infant healthcare.

True, for women. Are they claiming this 6 weeks breastfeeding was economically advantageous to the patient in comparison to buying formulas? Hard to believe if the treatment used included getting domperidone from across the border and we don't know how expensive the whole treatment was (correct if I am wrong, US has no public health coverage for such procedures, right?)

Women who breastfeed are noted to have lower rates of breast cancer and ovarian cancer than women who have never breastfed.

I don't know why this was even cited. The patient is biologically male. What the. Seem like they are using well established arguments for breastfeeding but ignoring the very important point that the patient in fact have no comparable physiology of that of females.

Overall, I think it's safe to say this research is very questionable and we should laugh at anyone that says this is proof of the safety and advantages of medically induced male lactation to feed babies.

[–] Srfthrowaway 6 points (+6|-0)

Totally OT but as an attending I am very impressed with your analysis. Well done.

[–] kababaihan [OP] 4 points (+4|-0) Edited

Is that even ethical? To give milk discharge to the baby who cannot consent?

[–] Willow9 3 points (+3|-0)

No it isn't, if it by any means endangers the child health then it's unethical. Consent is also very important. Even in academic research consisting of applying questionnaires there's the need of having it approved by ethics' committee and of having a term of agreement signed by the people involved. I admit I have no idea how this case study was even allowed to be conducted, so I just focused on criticizing its scientific approach.

[–] antandro 2 points (+5|-3)

Thank you! This definitely makes it clear to me that such a thing should not be allowed, at least until much more research is done on it. I greatly appreciate you taking the time to write this, and in simple enough terms for a layperson such as myself.

It brings into sharp focus this aspect, too: how does one say "no" to a TiM who wishes to take this course of action, and not be transphobic? For it seems to me that the TiM can say that others must use preferred pronouns; legally, their status is that of a woman; physically, they are allowed into womens' spaces; even socially, they may be compete in sports against natal women and they might marry as a woman. What sense is there, then, in drawing a line here, at breastfeeding?

The erasure of biological sex has subtle consequences that most people never even think about.

[–] Willow9 5 points (+5|-0)

You're very welcome, it was fun to analyze the article and respond to your well written reply! I'm glad that you could understand it, as English is not my first language.

You made a good point, where should we draw the line? Intuitively, I think people respond better at drawing the line at basic biology implications (everyone knows that men do not breastfeed, everyone knows that men have advantage over women in sports), than at legal/political implications (transwomen getting public positions that belonged to women, getting to be the center of the "new civil rights divide" etc). But what worries me, way more that most people cheerfully ignoring or uncaring to think about legal/political implications of thinking transwomen = women, is the increase of people using bad science to go against that very intuitive, biological notion that men and women are different, permanently, and start blurring the lines using bad genetics, bad OB/GYN and urology, bad psychiatry and bad psychology to push it down our throats.

On another note: where did the baby in the study come from? Since the transwomen was cleary acting like the "mother". The article just ignored it: a random baby, for a random research. That's just insane.

[–] bellatrixbells 1 points (+1|-0)

Nice contribution.

Funny though, isn't clonazepam an antidepressant ? This is kind of unrelated to the breastfeeding question, but it does bring into question the topic of transition... Again. Isn't transitioning presented as some magical cure-all or something ?

I've been on antidepressants for almost ten years after getting out of an abusive relationship. I couldn't possibly judge. But I also know how unstable I would get when off my meds and the reason I needed them.

I wonder is this person at least getting therapy or do they expect LARPing as women 24/7 will cure their depression ? 🙄🙄

[–] Kittyrose 5 points (+5|-0)

The study I saw not sure if the one you have linked, had the the individual on spirolactone a substance that doesn't have concluded evidence on whether or not it is safe for baby to ingest.

[–] feralfeminist 4 points (+4|-0)

There is no situation in which this is okay. If you can induce lactation in a man, you can induce it in a woman, and women have fed one another's babies for thousands of years now.

If the mother's lactating then she needs to do the feeding. BFing is demand-triggered. Kid doesn't nurse, mom won't make. If you're really "coming from a scientific background" then you should know this already. The kid would actually be better off with Dad feeding them milk Mom expressed than to have two parents nursing directly, and that goes for lesbian couples too.

[–] antandro -2 points (+1|-3) Edited

Agreed - that's a path that is much more in the child's interest, I would think.

(My scientific background is in Computer Science, not the natural sciences, so I only know the biology that I've picked up in the course of an average academic's life ... and the course of a parent's life, too. Most of it is probably simplified stuff, like Newtonian mechanics vs quantum mechanics, so I hesitate to claim expertise in this domain.)

[–] goldenheartcc 10 points (+11|-1)

Jesus. fucking. christ. when it comes to anti vaxxers, the unfortunate reality is some of their children will die of a disease that has a vaccine and would have prevented them getting infected and dying. in those scenarios, I hope the cruel reality is enough to wake up the parents. in this scenario, I again hope when their kids start experiencing illness, malnutrition, etc, they wake the fuck up. now if only they didn't see children as so dispensable to use them as a power move. I bet these fuckers are pro life, too.

[–] Spuntime 0 points (+0|-0)

These men don't care about their own children. I have heard of older TIMs rendering their daughter's homeless because the daughter refused to validate him as a woman.

[–] goldenheartcc 0 points (+0|-0)

Yes, me too unfortunately. I think in an AITA post on reddit? Anyway, I'd like to become roommates or big sisters or friends to all the daughters who males cast out. We can be "evil" together

[–] Carrots90 9 points (+9|-0)

The main point Id want to point out is that babies cannot drink the milk of ANY OTHER ANIMAL besides a human woman unless it has been altered.

Formula is made of cows milk but is altered and stuff is added. That is why parents buy formula, which is quite expensive, not straight cows milk in the first year of life.

Why was this mans nipple discharge not analyzed?

Females go through 2 different times when their breast tissue develops. Puberty and then pregnancy. TIMs may have moobs but they are NOT not breasts.

[–] moody_ape 6 points (+6|-0) Edited

Fuck. Now I want to be able to do this. Mostly for the power move.

power move, huh? sir, you maleness is showing. maybe you should cover it up.

and the pictures omg... disgusting. a man wearing a bdsm-ish leather piece looking depraved while holding a baby, like wtf????

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