105

David “Debbie” Hayton, who wrote the guidance on Trans Equality in Schools and Colleges which states that ‘Trans teachers should be free to use toilets appropriate to their acquired gender’, a self-confessed autogynephile who supports access to ‘gender reassignment’ and has called for the ‘de-stigmatisation’ of his paraphilia, has now released an article called ‘My autogynephilia story’, pushing the narrative that autogynephilic paraphilia is innate, and that 3 year old toddlers have AGP.

Children are not AGP. A child is not born fetishistic.

Any person who will insist on considering him an ‘ally’ after this, I cannot ever trust again. This man is far more dangerous than any TRA, especially as he does so using our platforms and ostensibly from ‘our side’ and with the support from some so-called ‘gender critical’ people. Hell, I even saw some TRAs the other day commenting how ridiculous it is!

Here is the always brilliant Dr EM, a women you can always trust. Like Andrea Dworkin before her, like Dr Julia Long, if something hurts women or children, you will never find her on the same side of it:

An adult male arguing that 3 year olds have sexual desires and sexual perversions, that young children get turned on, is telling you loud and clear who they are. No matter what fancy language tricks they try to use.

– Dr EM (PankhurstEM) on Twitter

Beyond disgusted at the latest attempt to destigmatise AGP and to sexualise toddlers.

On the other hand, when those transexual “allies” who claim to not be like the other girls, are given enough rope, they sure as hell do manage to hang them selves.

– Trans Widows’ Voices. (transwidows) on Twitter

The shift from “born in the wrong body” to “born with a paraphilia” should be highlighted and denounced by everybody involved in this movement.

Any trans widow will tell you that women are groomed into accepting autogynephilia by the AGP gradually making progressive disclosures. Whilst each disclosure gives new information,they are still framed so as to obscure the reality and make it more palatable.

How do you think women end up married to these men? AGP doesn’t arrive in your life in thigh boots and a suspender belt. It is introduced gradually and this begins with pleas to our empathy.

What we are seeing now is the abuse that individual #tranwidows have experienced, reproduced on a grand scale.

We have warned you. Why won’t you listen?

– Trans Widows’ Voices. (transwidows) on Twitter

Jennifer, the trans widow who was interviewed by Glinner (whose interview was taken down after the “agps/‘transsexuals’ ARE the movement” incident, not sure if by request) was suspended from Twitter – no, not for arguing with TRAs – but for simply saying “read his tweets” referring to David “Debbie” Hayton.

Here's Jennifer on Twitter again (I won't link to it for obvious reasons):

“I'm Jennifer the trans widow interviewed by Glinner. The account with my story happened to be mass reported and permanently suspended after I began to directly counter DH's spin on AGP. I hadn't so much as an hour's ban before that despite arguing with many vindictive Irish TRAs.”

Stories that speak to the effect on those closest to middle aged AGPs are no longer convenient to many who say they're fighting for women and kids because a man has ingratiated himself with the specific purpose of peddling his victim erasing, self-promoting spin. Quite alarming.

They can see. They do not care. It serves them to push his narrative and victim blame, intimidate and marginalise women who refuse to let his lies and obfuscation stand. Things will give but there will be further confusion and harm before they do and that is unconscionable.

I noticed on the “"Terf Tr/nny Alliance" ...?” post, the “TRA ("tell the rad fems") vs. Ally ("don't tell the rad fems")” post, and even on the “Why do some women differentiate between male larpers?” post just yesterday, there were still some women defending these people.

Just fucking STOP.

Those who consider yourselves ‘gender critical’ or feminists or allies to feminists or allies to trans widows, those who say you are fighting for women and children, those who claim to even remotely care one iota about women and children, please stop doing this and WAKE UP.

Prominent female academics and journalists seem willing to begin talking about AGP now,yet only cite old articles written by AGPs themselves, they don’t acknowledge the many testimonies of trans widows.Why? Are our exes considered more reliable than we are, even by feminists?

Well I say only old articles, if it’s not that it’s the words of one particular contemporary dissembling AGP.

Where else would feminists seek to talk about a form of male abuse of women, by quoting and relying on the words of the abusers?

And why are they keen to think that our abusers are more honest, and their words more reliable than the average abuser, who everyone knows will minimise their abuse?

I think they consider the self confessed words of AGPs themselves to be more of a “gotcha” against those who claim AGP doesn’t exist. Everybody likes being told a secret.

But they are failing to recognise that even when they quote AGPs own confessions, they are only quoting the sanitised version an abuser presents to the world. They should place higher priority on believing #transwidows

– Trans Widows’ Voices. (transwidows) on Twitter

estherflubb: “These true confessions are part of the thrill - is that part of what you are saying. They are a ‘sanitised’ version of the story. That chimes with something I read earlier on here. All the ‘feels’ none of the porn, cruelty and boundary transgressions.”

GeorgiaXCross: “Yes, this "born with paraphilias" rubbish is being uncritically promoted by the "gentry GC" in exactly the same way. Just as the queer theorists ignored decades of women's sector knowledge, now decades of child development knowledge is being ignored. 1/2”

“Our poshies don't know what they don't know and are too arrogant to find out.

And therefore keep sending the rest of us back to square one.”

EDITED TO ADD: among the ‘poshies’ in question are HJoyceGender, stellaomalley3, JackieDP, etc. etc. etc.

GeorgiaXCross: Dr Hayton is retconning a proto sexual motivation onto memories of what were completely normal childhood behaviours because it's a justification for adult behaviours. Consensus on child development is what tells us this is a retcon and not accurate.

leakylike: this is incoherent with child development

'While it might exhibit itself in fetishistic behaviour and be fed by porn, my experience of AGP extends back to my earliest memories. If I was not born with this pervading condition, it had gripped me by age three.'

leakylike: You should try some evidence based understanding o child development Debbie

no 3 yr old is 'gripped' with a paraphillia ludicrous from a teacher

children's understanding of sex category is shown here

@wontsomeonethi2 @prof_curiosity1 @SafeSchools_UK

leakylike: A 3 yr old boy is not gripped by paraphillia

3 yr old children do not have sexual or romantic attraction

3 yr olds fascinations are those of their age

adults should stop projecting onto them

Belstaffie:

#Autogynephilia No male is born with a sexual paraphilia, they develop this during puberty. I base this on risk assessments of men during my time assessing male offenders. A paraphilia is NOT a sexual orientation, nor is it benign. To conflate this is wholly inappropriate.

And finally, from claireOT:

So, yesterday I filmed a video, reading Debbie Hayton’s latest justification for public displays of fetishism. My video is informed by child development and safeguarding frameworks

However, for those that are short of time, I’ll be able to give you a summary, now. No 3 yr old can possibly have AGP, which is an adult paraphillia. 3 yr olds are at Piaget’s pre-operational stage, and believe that dressing up as a thing transforms you into a thing.

If a 3 yr old were to display overt sexualised behaviours, it would be a massive safeguarding red flag. Childhood ‘cross-dressing’ is only associated with shame and fear in deeply homophobic households. Adult AGPs like to use retconning to adultify themselves in their memory.

The disrespect shown to a life partner of many years, and 3 children: to literally reduce them to a footnote in a narcissistic narrative, is typical of adult fetishists, who have become deeply involved in their fetish, impacting every real-life relationship.

Children at age 6, or 9, are able to understand that dressing as a thing does not change our essential nature. It is in puberty that sexual responses begin to emerge, and in teenage years a child may become aware of their latent sexuality.

Development of a fetish involves years of reinforcing unusual thoughts about sex, frequently using masturbation and orgasm as positive reinforcement. An AGP may fixate on a particular item of clothing, such as tights, which they may build into scenarios for masturbation

The development of complex adult responses to stimuli, and adult sexuality, are simply impossible in a child’s brain. They are not capable of any of the complex cognitive and executive tasks involved. Paraphillias May emerge in adulthood, and may not be admitted until mid-life

Keep adult fetishists away from children, because they demonstrate a lack of boundaries. Women: if your spouse admits to a fetish, they are already reducing you from a partner to a bit-player. You are a supporting actor in the fantasy in which he is the star. You deserve more

Here is the video. Do feel free to join the conversation and leave a comment

My Autogynephilia Story, by Debbie Hayton. Unherd, 09/05/22

#Safeguarding #ChildDevelopment #AGP #TransWidows #Autogynephilia #DebbieHayton

David “Debbie” Hayton, who wrote the guidance on Trans Equality in Schools and Colleges which states that ‘Trans teachers should be free to use toilets appropriate to their acquired gender’, a self-confessed autogynephile who supports access to ‘gender reassignment’ and has called for the ‘de-stigmatisation’ of his paraphilia, has now released an article called ‘My autogynephilia story’, pushing the narrative that autogynephilic paraphilia is innate, and that 3 year old toddlers have AGP. Children are not AGP. A child is not born fetishistic. Any person who will insist on considering him an ‘ally’ after this, I cannot ever trust again. This man is far more dangerous than any TRA, especially as he does so using *our platforms* and ostensibly from ‘our side’ and with the support from some so-called ‘gender critical’ people. Hell, I even saw some [TRAs](https://imgur.com/a/pM68sxu) the other day commenting how ridiculous it is! Here is the *always* brilliant Dr EM, a women you can always trust. Like Andrea Dworkin before her, like Dr Julia Long, if something hurts women or children, you will *never* find her on the same side of it: > **An adult male arguing that 3 year olds have sexual desires and sexual perversions, that young children get turned on, is telling you loud and clear who they are. No matter what fancy language tricks they try to use.** – Dr EM (PankhurstEM) on [Twitter]( https://twitter.com/PankhurstEM/status/1523696616040898563?s=20&t=nTPCxUWZIExKDCThWrZPvw) > Beyond disgusted at the latest attempt to destigmatise AGP and to sexualise toddlers. > On the other hand, when those transexual “allies” who claim to not be like the other girls, are given enough rope, they sure as hell do manage to hang them selves. – Trans Widows’ Voices. (transwidows) on [Twitter]( https://twitter.com/transwidows/status/1523595377731334146?s=20&t=nTPCxUWZIExKDCThWrZPvw) > The shift from “born in the wrong body” to “born with a paraphilia” should be highlighted and denounced by everybody involved in this movement. > Any trans widow will tell you that women are groomed into accepting autogynephilia by the AGP gradually making progressive disclosures. Whilst each disclosure gives new information,they are still framed so as to obscure the reality and make it more palatable. > **How do you think women end up married to these men? AGP doesn’t arrive in your life in thigh boots and a suspender belt. It is introduced gradually and this begins with pleas to our empathy.** > **What we are seeing now is the abuse that individual #tranwidows have experienced, reproduced on a grand scale.** > **We have warned you. Why won’t you listen?** – Trans Widows’ Voices. (transwidows) on [Twitter]( https://twitter.com/transwidows/status/1523958937254514690?s=20&t=nTPCxUWZIExKDCThWrZPvw) Jennifer, the trans widow who was interviewed by Glinner (whose interview was taken down after the “agps/‘transsexuals’ ARE the movement” [incident](https://twitter.com/transwidows/status/1503680834414563328?s=20&t=nTPCxUWZIExKDCThWrZPvw), not sure if by request) was suspended from Twitter – no, not for arguing with TRAs – but for simply saying “[read his tweets](https://twitter.com/tinselangel_/status/1523739699390468096?s=20&t=nTPCxUWZIExKDCThWrZPvw)” referring to David “Debbie” Hayton. Here's Jennifer on Twitter again (I won't link to it for obvious reasons): “I'm Jennifer the trans widow interviewed by Glinner. The account with my story happened to be mass reported and permanently suspended after I began to directly counter DH's spin on AGP. I hadn't so much as an hour's ban before that despite arguing with many vindictive Irish TRAs.” “**Stories that speak to the effect on those closest to middle aged AGPs are no longer convenient to many who say they're fighting for women and kids because a man has ingratiated himself with the specific purpose of peddling his victim erasing, self-promoting spin. Quite alarming.**” “**They can see. They do not care. It serves them to push his narrative and victim blame, intimidate and marginalise women who refuse to let his lies and obfuscation stand. Things will give but there will be further confusion and harm before they do and that is unconscionable.**” I noticed on the “"Terf Tr/nny Alliance" ...?” [post](https://ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/74021/terf-tr-nny-alliance), the “TRA ("tell the rad fems") vs. Ally ("don't tell the rad fems")” [post](https://ovarit.com/o/Radfemmery/87818/tra-tell-the-rad-fems-vs-ally-don-t-tell-the-rad-fems), and even on the “*Why* do some women differentiate between male larpers?” [post](https://ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/89525/why-do-some-women-differentiate-between-male-larpers) *just yesterday*, there were *still* some women defending these people. Just fucking STOP. Those who consider yourselves ‘gender critical’ or feminists or allies to feminists or allies to trans widows, those who say you are fighting for women and children, those who claim to even remotely care one iota about women and children, ***please stop doing this and WAKE UP***. > Prominent female academics and journalists seem willing to begin talking about AGP now,yet only cite old articles written by AGPs themselves, they don’t acknowledge the many testimonies of trans widows.Why? Are our exes considered more reliable than we are, even by feminists? > Well I say only old articles, if it’s not that it’s the words of one particular contemporary dissembling AGP. > **Where else would feminists seek to talk about a form of male abuse of women, by quoting and relying on the words of the abusers?** > **And why are they keen to think that our abusers are more honest, and their words more reliable than the average abuser, who everyone knows will minimise their abuse?** > I think they consider the self confessed words of AGPs themselves to be more of a “gotcha” against those who claim AGP doesn’t exist. Everybody likes being told a secret. > **But they are failing to recognise that even when they quote AGPs own confessions, they are only quoting the sanitised version an abuser presents to the world. They should place higher priority on [believing](https://www.transwidowsvoices.org/our-voices) #transwidows** – Trans Widows’ Voices. (transwidows) on [Twitter]( https://twitter.com/transwidows/status/1506018675811250177?s=20&t=nTPCxUWZIExKDCThWrZPvw) [estherflubb](https://twitter.com/estherflubb/status/1523808820346073088?s=20&t=nTPCxUWZIExKDCThWrZPvw): “These true confessions are part of the thrill - is that part of what you are saying. They are a ‘sanitised’ version of the story. That chimes with something I read earlier on here. All the ‘feels’ none of the porn, cruelty and boundary transgressions.” [GeorgiaXCross](https://twitter.com/GeorgiaXCross/status/1523947986652434433?s=20&t=nTPCxUWZIExKDCThWrZPvw): “Yes, this "born with paraphilias" rubbish is being uncritically promoted by the "gentry GC" in exactly the same way. Just as the queer theorists ignored decades of women's sector knowledge, now decades of child development knowledge is being ignored. 1/2” “Our poshies don't know what they don't know and are too arrogant to find out. And therefore keep sending the rest of us back to square one.” **EDITED TO ADD**: among the ‘poshies’ in question are [HJoyceGender](https://twitter.com/HJoyceGender/status/1523742531418157058?s=20&t=pv1EQz34wNA6c6YKWxy55g), [stellaomalley3](https://twitter.com/stellaomalley3/status/1523735713061425152?s=20&t=a3zYH6xIsfsFfgbUn0uW9Q), [JackieDP](https://twitter.com/JackieDP/status/1523980572170850304?s=20&t=pv1EQz34wNA6c6YKWxy55g), etc. etc. etc. > [GeorgiaXCross](https://twitter.com/GeorgiaXCross/status/1523611306607095808?s=20&t=pv1EQz34wNA6c6YKWxy55g): Dr Hayton is retconning a proto sexual motivation onto memories of what were completely normal childhood behaviours because it's a justification for adult behaviours. Consensus on child development is what tells us this is a retcon and not accurate. > [leakylike](https://twitter.com/leakylike/status/1523588237280784385?s=20&t=pv1EQz34wNA6c6YKWxy55g): this is incoherent with child development > 'While it might exhibit itself in fetishistic behaviour and be fed by porn, my experience of AGP extends back to my earliest memories. If I was not born with this pervading condition, it had gripped me by age three.' > [leakylike](https://twitter.com/leakylike/status/1523589806542196737?s=20&t=pv1EQz34wNA6c6YKWxy55g): You should try some evidence based understanding o child development Debbie > no 3 yr old is 'gripped' with a paraphillia ludicrous from a teacher > children's understanding of sex category is shown [here](https://youtu.be/luqSuuPSEOM) > [@wontsomeonethi2](https://twitter.com/wontsomeonethi2) [@prof_curiosity1](https://twitter.com/prof_curiosity1) [@SafeSchools_UK](https://twitter.com/SafeSchools_UK) > [leakylike](https://twitter.com/leakylike/status/1523597488615133186?s=20&t=pv1EQz34wNA6c6YKWxy55g): A 3 yr old boy is not gripped by paraphillia > 3 yr old children do not have sexual or romantic attraction > 3 yr olds fascinations are those of their age > adults should stop projecting onto them [Belstaffie](https://twitter.com/Belstaffie/status/1524074359345795074?s=20&t=pv1EQz34wNA6c6YKWxy55g): > #Autogynephilia No male is born with a sexual paraphilia, they develop this during puberty. I base this on risk assessments of men during my time assessing male offenders. A paraphilia is NOT a sexual orientation, nor is it benign. To conflate this is wholly inappropriate. And finally, from [claireOT](https://twitter.com/claireOT/status/1523911730715316225?s=20&t=pv1EQz34wNA6c6YKWxy55g): > **So, yesterday I filmed a video, reading Debbie Hayton’s latest justification for public displays of fetishism. My video is informed by child development and safeguarding frameworks** > **However, for those that are short of time, I’ll be able to give you a summary, now. No 3 yr old can possibly have AGP, which is an adult paraphillia. 3 yr olds are at Piaget’s pre-operational stage, and believe that dressing up as a thing transforms you into a thing.** > **If a 3 yr old were to display overt sexualised behaviours, it would be a massive safeguarding red flag. Childhood ‘cross-dressing’ is only associated with shame and fear in deeply homophobic households. Adult AGPs like to use retconning to adultify themselves in their memory.** > **The disrespect shown to a life partner of many years, and 3 children: to literally reduce them to a footnote in a narcissistic narrative, is typical of adult fetishists, who have become deeply involved in their fetish, impacting every real-life relationship.** > **Children at age 6, or 9, are able to understand that dressing as a thing does not change our essential nature. It is in puberty that sexual responses begin to emerge, and in teenage years a child may become aware of their latent sexuality.** > **Development of a fetish involves years of reinforcing unusual thoughts about sex, frequently using masturbation and orgasm as positive reinforcement. An AGP may fixate on a particular item of clothing, such as tights, which they may build into scenarios for masturbation** > **The development of complex adult responses to stimuli, and adult sexuality, are simply impossible in a child’s brain. They are not capable of any of the complex cognitive and executive tasks involved. Paraphillias May emerge in adulthood, and may not be admitted until mid-life** > **Keep adult fetishists away from children, because they demonstrate a lack of boundaries. Women: if your spouse admits to a fetish, they are already reducing you from a partner to a bit-player. You are a supporting actor in the fantasy in which he is the star. You deserve more** > **[Here](https://youtu.be/TZ2lIo1VS74) is the video. Do feel free to join the conversation and leave a comment** > **My Autogynephilia Story, by Debbie Hayton. Unherd, 09/05/22** > **#Safeguarding #ChildDevelopment #AGP #TransWidows #Autogynephilia #DebbieHayton**

81 comments

[–] notapatsy 73 points Edited

A transwidow here.

Here's what I discovered in the three years I attempted to live with my trans-identifying AGP now ex after his trans bomb drop (at age 58). It is absolutely true that "women are groomed into accepting autogynephilia by the AGP gradually making progressive disclosures." It's also absolutely true that over time an AGP's actions and explanation accelerate and escalate. AGP does work like an addiction--more is always needed for the high.

He who starts off wanting to wear women's lingerie alone then wants to wear it in front of his partner/wife, whose affirmation he craves, and, getting that affirmation, experiences a more intense sexual high; then he wants to wear that lingerie during sex, and then to change his outfit several times during a sex session. He then wants to wear other women's clothing, outside the bedroom, until eventually he wants to wear it all the time he is at home. Then he wants to venture outside the home. Such is the craving for affirmation and the sexual high it provides that it escalates from affirmation by the partner/wife to society at large. It's needed both to sustain the fantasy and to insist on it, while the affirmation by others boosts the AGPs sexual and self-satisfaction.

As for the remaking of the self narrative, that, too, changes. The AGP goes from "I'm a woman in a man's body" to "people like me are evolutionary advances" (my ex's actual claim). The AGP goes from "I first crossdressed in my mother's slip at age 10" to "I have always had a little girl inside who was not allowed to come into being" (my ex's words to me). The AGP who accepts AGP as an explanation for his desire, may first disclose his desire, meaning his sexual excitement at the thought of himself as a woman, and move to arguing that this paraphilia "hurts no one."

"It hurts no one" were also my ex's exact words to me, and he uttered them because he wanted to distinguish between his paraphilia of AGP and pedophilia, to make it more palatable to me--and to himself. However, it was patently obvious that his paraphilia did hurt someone: it hurt me, especially after I realized that my meaning to him was limited to my use to him as source of affirmation and sexual validation, and it hurt him, too, because he was so self-obsessed that he was unable to make friends, a fact he bewailed to me more than once.

"Debbie" Hayton has merely taken this escalating self-narrative one step further. He has moved the goal posts--which is one thing you can always count on with AGPs--from "I have always had a little girl inside" to "Because I am AGP, I have always been AGP, and because AGP is a sexual paraphilia, I was sexual at age 3." This kind of escalation is built into AGP. In my opinion, you can also see this same kind of escalation, which is always in service to validating the AGP's need to prove to himself he is "really" female, with Andrea Long Chu's claim that the anus is the "universal vagina."

No one knows the origins or the etiology of this paraphilia. Knowing what I know about my ex's past, the speculation that AGP is epigenetic feels right to me. I don't know what the answer is for people who are paraphilic, but it certainly shouldn't be a public indulgence in or validation of the delusions of one's fetish. I have no desire to be an actor, witting or unwitting, in someone else's sexual perversion.

I'm also a trans-widow and yes, I agree with what you're saying here. A lot of what you're saying rings true from my experience -- which I went through when I was 8 months pregnant with our second child.

Weirdly, when I became more involved in political philosophy and after I personally peaked -- my estranged partner dismissed the whole thing as "just a fetish" -- but this was after he had been called out by multiple therapists as being abusive (and he really was!). Then he just strangely dropped the whole thing. Mind you, his dropping it didn't improve our marriage at all or save the relationship. He just went from being self-absorbed and narcissistic in one way and moved on to being self-absorbed and narcissistic in a different way. I mostly think he's a closet misogynist more than anything else. He claims he cares about women's rights -- but while doing all he could to limit my personal rights (including financial abuse, coercive control, etc.).

Nowadays, anyone mentioning when he used to cross-dress is grounds for him to fly into a blind rage. (When he thought that I mentioned it, even though I hadn't -- I was subjected to his raging at me 'till I thew up.) It's as if he desisted (strangely) -- but instead of his claiming who he really is, he just slunk off and sulked.

Before he went into denial that all this even happened though -- the progression of events that you described happened very much like what I experienced. Moving the goalposts was definitely a thing, as were all the wild justifications, rewriting history, etc. etc. To this day, he still has never acknowledged how painful that experience was for me or the abuse he subjected me to. It wasn't the clothes he wore -- it was how he treated me when he was dressing... like an object or maybe a human-sized sex toy. Other times, he just treated me as someone who needed to validate his preferences -- but it was as if I didn't exist as a human being. I never want to feel that way again.

After the dust settled -- he just stopped being sexual at all. It's as if once his AGP fantasy died, he became sexless. Later on, he would claim to be impotent -- but that was a lie. We live separately now (thank goodness!) but still not officially divorced because I got fed up with his financial sabotage whenever he thought he was losing me as a target for manipulation. I'm in therapy now and talking with a DV advocate. I hope to eventually gain financial freedom and eventually remove all ties to this person who seems to act as if I'm simply his pet person or that I only exist to serve his needs in one form or another.

I wonder whether your stbx could e in the "purge" phase of the cross dressing cycle? Or, he might just be a disordered person who cycles through various obsessions.

I hope you are able to move toward divorce soon. Divorce will change things mentally for you--in a good way.

This is a great analysis and my condolences about your ex. The self masturbatory writings of long chu and these other AGPs drive me up the wall. So many talented women writers and theorists remain unpublished but now that AGP men are a protected class they’re invited everywhere and everything they say is plat formed.

I think the escalation aspect is really important to discuss, as is the way they need different but a lot of validation from their partner and society

I’m also really concerned about their thought process (which you described perfectly) and how they’ll use this to justify pedofilia.

It is my observation that baked into both pedophilia and autogynephilia is a need to believe the fantasy is real. An autogynephile needs to believe he "really is" a woman. A pedophile needs to believe he "really loves" children.

As for the escalation/addictive nature of autogynephilia. Think of the way you have felt in a love affair. Think of how enamored you were of your lover. Think of how you dreamed of her/him, wanted to be with her/him--couldn't get enough of her/him! That, people, is the way an autogynephile thinks of himself. They are possessed of a desire for that "woman" (who is themselves). This is what I think is difficult for people to understand about autogynephilia. An autogynephile may or may not be capable ("to some degree" is how Bailey puts it) of love for an actual woman, but they are obsessed with their love for themselves.

The problem is that while the autogynephile believes he "is" a "real woman," he also fears he isn't, and thus the ever expanding need to prove to himself that he is, which he does by insisting that others validate that he is. It's a vicious and ever accelerating spiral.

[–] SometimesJacka AGP Expert 🚩 18 points

The problem is that while the autogynephile believes he "is" a "real woman," he also fears he isn't, and thus the ever expanding need to prove to himself that he is, which he does by insisting that others validate that he is. It's a vicious and ever accelerating spiral.

This is why you should always be skeptical of AGPs in feminist spaces and communities. It turns them into believing they are “not like other men”, which basically a half-second split into validating themselves as women. Just as AGPs love validation from lesbians they love it from feminists, but sexual orientation is a bit of a harder barrier to cross than women communities who focus on women.

I'm permanently estranged from a later-in-life transed brother, and I just wanted to second you and @No_Third_Gamete here. Especially:

"It hurts no one" were also my ex's exact words to me, and he uttered them because he wanted to distinguish between his paraphilia of AGP and pedophilia, to make it more palatable to me--and to himself.

It always hurts someone. Always. By the time I had to go NC, my brother was already beginning to "mentally trans" his own preschool-age grandchildren.

This is mental illness. Period. I also see the epigenetic influence -- it definitely applies in my family. I'm glad to see more trans widows and survivors casting a hard, clear light on the celebrity status around GC-anointed AGPs and "trans allies" in general. How far can we really meaningfully negotiate with an indulged but misdiagnosed/undiagnosed and untreated psychological disorder? People are most definitely hurt by this travesty.

[–] BlackCirce 🔮🐖🐖🐖 55 points Edited

The same people who spend all day mocking liberal feminists and gay and lesbian people who embrace the queer movement are taking this shit as seriously as “born in the wrong body.”

This is exactly how feminism and gay/lesbian rights were captured from the ground to begin with. We were laughed at and admonished to be kind to men who are so super duper gay that they have to be women. What a silly hateful terf! She thinks sweet kind ultra feminine gay men w no penis will attack her in the restrooms! Doesn’t she understand, he’s a victim! He’s stigmatized! He just wants to pee! He’s known he was really a girl since age three!

Underneath it all is contempt and male dominance games. “I’m going to do this to you, no matter what you say. You can’t stop me. So here is a pretext for my actions to help you cope with your violation.” Sorry champ, as they say in Scotland womyn won’t wheesht.

[–] GraceHoward1729 [OP] 2+2=4 24 points Edited

“born in the wrong body” --> “born with a paraphilia”

Fucking sick.

As transwidows say, “women are groomed into accepting autogynephilia by the AGP gradually making progressive disclosures. Whilst each disclosure gives new information,they are still framed so as to obscure the reality and make it more palatable. ... It is introduced gradually and this begins with pleas to our empathy. What we are seeing now is the abuse that individual #tranwidows have experienced, reproduced on a grand scale.”

Underneath it all is contempt and male dominance games.

And erections, arousal - yes, dominance. It's tactical, thrilling, the cruelty, the boundary transgressions... sexual. These “true confessions” and having feminists listen intently while shunning trans widows (see here Helen Joyce saying “This is good”), it's all part of the thrill, part of the fetish. Speaking over the women they abused, seeing them excluded from the only movement which accepted them, excluded from feminism in the interest of ‘inclusiveness’, seeing them seeking support from other women only to be rejected in the interest of supporting their abuser.

The women inclusive of men were and are happier to exclude women to please the male’s feelings. Nothing has changed over the intervening years. As well as the tactical reasons for joining lesbian and women’s groups, there is also, I would allege, a sexual reason. Not only does it provide access to the male’s sexual target but what could be more of a turn on to an AGP male than the idea of being accepted by lesbians and feminists as a woman?

From Dr EM's What Was Happening Before ‘Just Be Nice Feminism’? Part IV: The Gutter Dykes, 1973

Sorry champ, as they say in Scotland womyn won’t wheesht.

Amen, sister. Though, I ain't fucking sorry.

[–] BlackCirce 🔮🐖🐖🐖 17 points

No one has explained why “some male children are born with a paraphilia that makes them want to be perceived as female, so they need to get treatment to make them appear female” is any different from “some children are born uncomfortable with their sex / gender role, so they need to get treatment to make them appear as the opposite sex.” Why is the second one wrong but the first one is sensible?

[–] GraceHoward1729 [OP] 2+2=4 23 points Edited

It's the exact. same. shit. happening all over again like clockwork. women's liberation is always hindered because of some women insisting on maintaining special loyalties to sub-groups of men.

something I saw on Twitter by leakylike:

what you're seeing is replication

this started a while ago

same dynamics as before

same women saying no

same ignoring, smearing etc

predictable

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on fucking me for being so damn susceptible to manipulation I can't see what's right in front of my fucking face.

It's replication

people wonder how organisations & individuals were captured by men with paraphillias...

watch!

If women can't see it the second time when we're screaming it, I don't see how that's going to change. Soon we'll split completely, and once again women abandoned to form grassroots movements against the "truAGP". This will never end.

What’s odd is that these TIMs openly acknowledge that it is a fetish and try to enshrine it in academic language. You don’t see TIFs running around proclaiming they have fetishes for men and trying to justify themselves. Even within trans communities males behave like males

[–] SometimesJacka AGP Expert 🚩 18 points

Kids having obsessive or compulsive thoughts is called OCD even if those thoughts are by male children about femininity. The attempt to reframe AGPs escalation into paraphiliac behavior as something that existed as children is wildly gross and inappropriate. They make that leap, because it excuses them from accountability and guilt allowing them to indulge and escalate with validation as a bonus.

AGPs always want to be soft and defend other AGPs, because it serves in their best interests. Blanchard and Bailey have a good framework and good research, but a lot of their conclusions are still by men in service to men.

AGPs should be shamed as a safeguard to escalation. They should know that indulging in a misogyny for sexual pleasure is shameful and should be kept at bay! If they truly can’t control that instinct at its root, well that’s too bad for them, but it’s much more harmful to women and society to uncouple it from misogyny and excuse it in any form. Guess what AGPs you’re prone to misogyny and you’ll only get worse if you actively indulge it.

An AGP getting institutional support for his transition (something that only serves his sexual misogyny) and paraphilia by feminist women is it’s own sexual dopamine hit.

The transwidow account is 100% correct — this is an affront to them to defend AGPs. Especially this AGP’s man attempt to scapegoat any control he has over his own indulgence and escalation. There’s a reason he seeks out and tries to get sympathy from GC women. There’s a reason he encourages transition. There’s a reason he prefers having a female-coded name. He knows his fetishism motivates his behavior, yet he doesn’t change it? He just becomes more and more interwoven with a community predominantly made up of women? Women who support him? 👀🚩

Our community is being used to facilitate his fetishistic thinking and paraphilia.

[–] vakarian 27 points Edited

I don’t like the idea of any GC people aligning themselves with trans people. No matter how moderate or “reasonable” they come off (ie Blaire White), at the end of the day they’re mentally ill. They get off on being validated as “one of the good ones” by GC people. You even have so-called truscum who see themselves as the “real” trans. No matter how they present their case, at the end of the day they want validation that they are indeed the gender they wish to be. Yeah, that’s not happening. Blaire White is just as male as Chris Chan is. The only thing I’ll concede to is that gender dysphoria is a legitimate mental illness, but transitioning is not the correct approach and never will be.

If we are to align ourselves with anyone it should be detransitioners. They can give all the experiences and perspectives on what being trans is like. They’re a more reliable source than “Debbie” for sure.

They are not "'trans' people". There's no such thing. They are men who demand we pretend they're women, or men who call themselves "trans". Robert "Blaire" White is not reasonable; he's an MRA. I don't think MRAs are reasonable at all. He believes 'gender' is innate, and that his brain is "truly trans" and that he's "Truly a Woman" because all women's brains are pink, while acknowledging that his body is biologically male. I do not believe that is 'reasonable', nor does it in any way aid women's liberation.

The only thing I’ll concede to is that gender dysphoria is a legitimate mental illness

Even that, have you read the sexist 'science' behind it? Part 1 and Part 2. Check it out, it's very illuminating.

Yes, I know trans is not a legitimate thing. For the sake of simplifying my comment I referred to it as trans. Notice how I put “reasonable” in quotation marks? I don’t think he’s reasonable, lol, but others seem to think so.

I’m also aware their closest claim to legitimacy is the male and female brain, which has already been debunked.

I don’t think he’s reasonable, lol, but others seem to think so.

Yes, sorry I didn't think you did specifically, but just for the benefit of lurkers who think he is reasonable, which is usually based on misinformation.

For the sake of simplifying my comment I referred to it as trans.

I know, but I think language is always important, just something to consider.

I was one that liked Debbie at first, I enjoyed reading his articles.

Then he started saying and doing things that didn’t sit right with me.

First, as a woman who got two blood transfusions due to kidney failure, I didn’t like Debbie’s tweets about donating blood where he says he’s a female. It made me start to question the NHS. Debbie also says his blood is valuable because it’s male blood with estrogen in it. I had a talk with my husband who donates blood, 1) he has the most sought after blood type, O- and 2) he’s never been asked for his sex and he has donated blood in the West Midlands (where Debbie is). It’s just made me think at least several parts of Debbie’s blood donation story is not entirely true.

Second, Debbie has openly suggested using the disabled toilets as a third option for trans people. As an able-looking disabled person, it made me mad because the disabled fought so long for those spaces.

Third, I saw the interview with Debbie and his wife, she looked so sad and almost embarrassed for him. And the more I read about his accounts with his family, it sounds like he has next to nothing to do with his wife in terms of intimacy (they sleep in separate bedrooms)

Fourth, he wrote for publications such as Lesbian and Gay News when he was neither of those.

Fifth, he was often asked to talk about the science behind women’s sport when he’s neither a woman nor a sportsman. Emma Hilton said she would have done the interview but no one attempted to get in touch with her (I think it was GB news who said they couldn’t find anyone and Debbie was available).

And now this, it’s just too many questionable things. I don’t think it’s a good idea to include him in the women’s movement.

[–] BlackCirce 🔮🐖🐖🐖 18 points

What you’re describing is a grift. He’s not the only one doing it. They’re eating off of two plates at the same time. They get the cache of being “trans” which is cool and subversive to the left and they’re “gender critical” which is revolutionary to the right.

Something that is starting to irk me, even though it’s not surprising, is that people seem more willing to listen to and have sympathy for people who have participated in trans activism / identity than the women who have been attacked and damaged for refusing to participate in it.

The thing that didn't sit right with me is that he larps as a woman and gets off on it and parades that fetish in front of children as a teacher and gets off on it and uses female spaces and wrote the guidance to allow all men like him to use female spaces and calls himself 'gc' while doing it.

Personally, I think a lot of these men have a boundary-violation fetish; and that thrill seeking behaviour always escalates, which mimics addiction.

"How do you think women end up married to these men? AGP doesn’t arrive in your life in thigh boots and a suspender belt. It is introduced gradually and this begins with pleas to our empathy."

I've been on the receiving end of this. Fortunately or unfortunately, I was involved in my own mental health issues, which in and of itself prevented relationship from progressing. However, he tried his damndest to suck me in, and I just didn't give a fuck, enough of a fuck. He was the "dream boyfriend" though, at the beginning. I mean, I thought I might marry him, he was so perfect! Nah, just trying to suck me in with bullshit, then destroy me. Thanks, I got my own problems. I'll struggle on as an overeducated and underloved woman.

I've discussed this at length with a male I'm close to, and he understands why Debbie comes to this conclusion, but believes he is reaching back to draw the conclusion he wants. Debbie is likely creating memories.

My friend played with his mother's lingerie when he was younger because he liked the soft, silky feelings of the fabric. He would go in the attic, and play with all the treasures, where he discovered some lingerie. He doesn't remember that they were particularly sexy, but he was very young.) Looking back, he says he understands the rise in feelings (Debbie says cortisol) was because playing with his mother's lingerie (going through her clothes) was forbidden (as was going through any of her stuff). As an adult male, he thought that signified something, but once he processed his feelings, he realized that it didn't. He knows he didn't have sexual feelings then. He isn't "trans," isn't AGP, but still likes soft fabrics. :)

The brain is a curious and complicated thing.

[–] SometimesJacka AGP Expert 🚩 9 points

Debbie comes to this conclusion, because it’s allows for him to scapegoat his own misogyny that contributed to his fetishistic escalation and it allows to continue escalating his fetishism with support from women.

I find it very interesting that he played with his mother's things knowing it wasn't allowed and got some sort of pleasure out of this fact. 🤔 I never touched things my mother told me not to touch.

He loved exploring in their walk-in attic. It was like going on a treasure hunt, and the "soft things" were just some of the stuff he liked playing with. His grandfather's old military uniforms and medals were there, too, and he enjoyed playing with them, as well. The point is...it wasn't a sexual experience for him, and I doubt it was for Debbie H, and I don't think they are the only two boys who played with their mom's clothes. :) I do think, however, that even at that young age, he had already absorbed the idea of gender stereotypes, so he felt guilty playing with mom's clothes. He knew he was a boy.

Btw, I do think that many kids have played with their parents things. I remember playing with my mom's makeup when she wasn't around without her permission, and I was an otherwise, very well-behaved little girl!

Did your mom specifically say not to play with her makeup, though? Just out of curiosity. I'm not trying to link it to a sexual thrill in childhood but rather trying to see if there's some way people are raised as children that make them more likely to find breaking the rules entertaining or pleasurable.

If my mom said not to touch something of hers I always listened to her. She wasn't a rigid enforcer or anything, no corporal punishment or yelling, but I dunno, I just never thought to actively disobey her requests. My brothers, though? All the time.

[+] [Deleted] 5 points

I don't like the blanket statement that paraphilias start in childhood because it's not true.

Let's take pedophilia as an example: There are perpetrators who already start as children, yes. But nowadays most offenders develop this paraphilia after falling into a pornography rabbit hole where they have to search out more and more gruesome stuff to get off. "Have to" of course, they choose all of this. But this theory of the "born pedophile" is still what most people believe in.

Same goes for most AGPs nowadays, they are porn sick and "have" to watch trans porn because the standard stuff is not vile enough to get them off.

But still I don't think we should distinguish between porn infused paraphilia and the one that is already occuring in childhood; if (!!) this is even true to begin with.

It doesn't change a damn thing. I don't care how long a man has been wanking to the thought of invading women's spaces and skinwalking us. I just care about him not doing this.

[–] WeaverArachne Prude Pride 10 points

Nobody’s born with paraphilia. A childhood interest, or even an obsession is not paraphilia, and most childhood obsessions don’t become paraphilias. Rather, paraphilia is what happens when that obsession becomes sexualized during puberty. Shame and secrecy are the connecting threads. If he was allowed to express femininity at a young age, I doubt it would’ve become such an obsession, and later a fetish.

[–] BristlingBo2 7 points Edited

This paragraph when he talks about when he was three:

"More than 50 years later, I can still picture the scene. I was learning to count beyond 20, and quickly picked up the pattern — 30, 40, 50 — and the repetition. But by the time we got to 60, a chill ran down my spine. We would soon be at 80 — a word sounded similar to “tights”, clothing that I knew was only for girls.

Why this was such a taboo for me, and at such an early age, I don’t know."

Honestly this sounds like grown ass man still channelling a kid who finds words like "underpants" hilarious.

(When my brother was three, he found the word "bum" really naughty and also hilarious. He would alternate between being super embarrassed if anyone said it and thinking he could get me into trouble by telling my mom that I said "bum". He grew out of it)

Thanks OP--glad to see this post. I saw veiled pushback on Twitter this morning and it took me a bit to figure out that they were probably objecting to DH's article published yesterday.

https://twitter.com/hatpinwoman/status/1523802953500536832

https://twitter.com/transwidows/status/1523958937254514690

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