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So the explanation of middle-aged TIMs is pretty clear (AGP) but I think trans teens can mostly be explained as the 'weird kids at school' and Revenge of the Nerds. This trend has only fairly recently sprung up, and mainly among the young, so the general public will often associate trans with the 'weird kids at school' too.

Please note this isn’t a dig at neurodivergence or wanting to label anyone negatively, just describing a certain group of teenagers with the phrase popularly attributed to them, hence the quotation marks, rather than it being my own opinion.

The following are all aspects of being ‘the weird kids at school’:

Feeling outside the (gender) norm: In a teen's B+W view of the world, there's the normies at school who they think all fit social norms 100%, while they just don't (also often autistic) so cling onto any subculture trend as it's 'anti-normie'. It used to be goths, emo, scene, etc. but now it's the trans cult. Also, part of not fitting social norms is not fitting gender norms, which easily opens their B+W brains up to the suggestion they may be the opposite gender.

Outsider identity: Being/feeling excluded from the kids at school, they feel intense loneliness in an already very lonely and confusing time of their lives. This is why weird kids cling so strongly to a certain subculture as they finally find other weird kids they can make friends with. Feeling excluded from the main group (society at large), they have to cling even more tightly onto their little niche groups and cult-like tendencies (like out-group hatred) easily emerge.

Getting ignored by the mainstream: As many just see these teens as 'the weird kids at school', TRA is not seen as particularly dangerous and is brushed aside as yet another teen counter culture fad. The weird kids are typically the bottom of the hierarchy too so not seen as any threat. People therefore just leave their understanding there so don't further connect the dots to the wider political issues and legal rights.

Sympathy for the underdog: Another explanation for the strange acceptance from the general public, of outright delusion and harm, is a natural sympathy for the underdog. We all knew, and felt a bit sorry for, those weird bullied kids and don't want to beat them down anymore, and this easily allows TRA to capitalise on idpol's oppression olympics victimhood narrative too.

Escape reality through fantasy: Unhappy with their everyday treatment and experiences, the 'weird kids at school' reject the world and escape happily into weird fantasy worlds, nerding out to Star Wars/Harry Potter/video games/anime/Dungeons & Dragons. The LGBTQIA2JH&J5+ is just another fun fantasy game, filled with any number of fantasy characters gender identities to play around with.

Fluid identity: Being a teen is all about starting to form your identity which is why teens try out so many different personalities/phases/styles/costumes. Why not try out the trans costume for size? Most girls go through tomboy phases after all.

Puberty and body dysmorphia: Puberty is such a tricky time for kids, especially girls as they deal with extreme changes to their bodies, including periods and aggressive male sexualisation/objectification. They also 'don't look like' the airbrushed models social media bombards them with all the time. It is easy to develop body dysmorphia as a teen, which is the gateway drug to 'gender dysphoria'.

Sheltered from struggle: Being so young, and often protected from the harsh realities of the world from their parents, teens often haven't faced any real struggles, so don't have the experience to know how to overcome them when they do. Getting their first 'low blow', they don't know how to cope, so cling to the first thing that seems to be a magic cure: drugs or transing. They also don't seem to be aware of other people's struggles much (haven't read fiction?), so think any negative feelings or mental illness is unique only to them.

Nerds and sexual rejection: Teens start developing a sex drive and so also their first taste of sexual rejection. I think this one mainly applies to nerdy boys who stereotypically are less sexually attractive. They often then either become MRAs, incels or strategise that 'if they become a girl they'll have girls begging them for sex!' (see entitled, misogynist and confused transbian posts)

Revenge of the Nerds: Why are TRAs so vile and horrid? Our natural empathy for the outsiders/underdog is misplaced. They're not shy and sensitive little souls but, like with incels, grow very angry and resentful towards the 'normies' (and may have been bullied for being weird tbf). As soon as they manage to get a sniff of power by climbing idpol's victimhood hierarchy and get laws changed for them, they use it to seek revenge and punish all the normies from school.

Then they grow up, their brains finally mature at 25, and they detrans or groom.

The End.

*So the explanation of middle-aged TIMs is pretty clear (AGP) but I think trans teens can mostly be explained as the 'weird kids at school' and Revenge of the Nerds. This trend has only fairly recently sprung up, and mainly among the young, so the general public will often associate trans with the 'weird kids at school' too.* *Please note this isn’t a dig at neurodivergence or wanting to label anyone negatively, just describing a certain group of teenagers with the phrase popularly attributed to them, hence the quotation marks, rather than it being my own opinion.* The following are all aspects of being ‘the weird kids at school’: **Feeling outside the (gender) norm:** In a teen's B+W view of the world, there's the normies at school who they think all fit social norms 100%, while they just don't (also often autistic) so cling onto any subculture trend as it's 'anti-normie'. It used to be goths, emo, scene, etc. but now it's the trans cult. Also, part of not fitting social norms is not fitting *gender* norms, which easily opens their B+W brains up to the suggestion they may be the opposite gender. **Outsider identity:** Being/feeling excluded from the kids at school, they feel intense loneliness in an already very lonely and confusing time of their lives. This is why weird kids cling so strongly to a certain subculture as they finally find other weird kids they can make friends with. Feeling excluded from the main group (society at large), they have to cling even more tightly onto their little niche groups and cult-like tendencies (like out-group hatred) easily emerge. **Getting ignored by the mainstream:** As many just see these teens as 'the weird kids at school', TRA is not seen as particularly dangerous and is brushed aside as yet another teen counter culture fad. The weird kids are typically the bottom of the hierarchy too so not seen as any threat. People therefore just leave their understanding there so don't further connect the dots to the wider political issues and legal rights. **Sympathy for the underdog:** Another explanation for the strange acceptance from the general public, of outright delusion and harm, is a natural sympathy for the underdog. We all knew, and felt a bit sorry for, those weird bullied kids and don't want to beat them down anymore, and this easily allows TRA to capitalise on idpol's oppression olympics victimhood narrative too. **Escape reality through fantasy:** Unhappy with their everyday treatment and experiences, the 'weird kids at school' reject the world and escape happily into weird fantasy worlds, nerding out to Star Wars/Harry Potter/video games/anime/Dungeons & Dragons. The LGBTQIA2JH&J5+ is just another fun fantasy game, filled with any number of fantasy ~~characters~~ gender identities to play around with. **Fluid identity:** Being a teen is all about starting to form your identity which is why teens try out so many different personalities/phases/styles/costumes. Why not try out the trans costume for size? Most girls go through tomboy phases after all. **Puberty and body dysmorphia:** Puberty is such a tricky time for kids, especially girls as they deal with extreme changes to their bodies, including periods and aggressive male sexualisation/objectification. They also 'don't look like' the airbrushed models social media bombards them with all the time. It is easy to develop body dysmorphia as a teen, which is the gateway drug to 'gender dysphoria'. **Sheltered from struggle:** Being so young, and often protected from the harsh realities of the world from their parents, teens often haven't faced any real struggles, so don't have the experience to know how to overcome them when they do. Getting their first 'low blow', they don't know how to cope, so cling to the first thing that seems to be a magic cure: drugs or transing. They also don't seem to be aware of other people's struggles much (haven't read fiction?), so think any negative feelings or mental illness is unique only to them. **Nerds and sexual rejection:** Teens start developing a sex drive and so also their first taste of sexual rejection. I think this one mainly applies to nerdy boys who stereotypically are less sexually attractive. They often then either become MRAs, incels or strategise that 'if they become a girl they'll have girls begging them for sex!' (see entitled, misogynist and confused [transbian posts](https://uploads.ovarit.com/f57fdeeb-1759-5083-9e06-de72e9ba0569.png)) **Revenge of the Nerds:** Why are TRAs so vile and horrid? Our natural empathy for the outsiders/underdog is misplaced. They're not shy and sensitive little souls but, like with incels, grow very angry and resentful towards the 'normies' (and may have been bullied for being weird tbf). As soon as they manage to get a sniff of power by climbing idpol's victimhood hierarchy and get laws changed for them, they use it to seek revenge and punish all the normies from school. Then they grow up, their brains finally mature at 25, and they detrans or groom. The End.

41 comments

Absolutely. I am convinced it is "mostly" outcast type kids who fall for this.

On a local newscast, I saw a bunch of girls standing outside of their school for trans day of visibility, and what struck me was the the number of girls who were overweight, unattractive, or just plain nerdy acting. (Cringeworthy behavior.) I say this without judgment, as I had one of those kids at one time, and she fell right into that trap, as well. It was absolutely heartbreaking.

[–] actualdyke 24 points Edited

saying this with his little judgement as possible but it's almost impossible to find a trans person who is attractive, able to hold down a steady job/studies/doing SOMETHING with their lives, and mentally adjusted and stable. maybe one or the other, but all 3? nah. it's definitely a revenge of the nerds type of thing, especially because the people that they are the most vile and hateful towards are the ones who are considered the most normal in society.

Gender dysphoria is in the DSM5 but most of these kids are either outcasts, autistic or have suffered abuse, especially the females. It is remarkable the number on nonbinary women I meet who have been sexually abused.

[–] Hera 23 points

This is spot the fuck on tbh.

My whole friend group from high school was 100% neurodivergent outcasts and nerds. We stayed pals in college (lived in a college town with a prestigious university that gave major discounts to born-n-raised citizens) and all but myself became "trans" shortly after tumblr became the Big Thing (so, circa 2013ish).

Even many of my internet friends (all of them neurodivergent women with a deep interest in art and fandom) turned trans after finding tumblr around this time as well. Some art still toting their NB horn into their 30s and actung the same way they did when we were 18 and it's fucking embarassing. And this is coming from an adult woman who watches old baby cartoons unironically because I think the animation is pretty, it takes a lot for me to call out a behavior for being "embarassing".

One of the many factors that saved me I think is seeing just how RAPID this happened to all my friends inside and outside of the internet, along with seeing one of them rush head-long into HRT. Her transformation was far from a glow-up into a cute anime boy like she envisioned. (Spoiler alert: obesity, greasy skin, raging acne, nasally pseudo-male voice, and a terrible, terrible smell of constant BO.)

I can't tell you how many times I go check out the profile of a nonbinary or trans young person on twitter and they reference cartoons, games, all really odd stuff that I have never seen, nor can I even begin to understand. These are children in adult bodies in many case. Serious arrested development.

That’s interesting about how they carry this childish phase into their 30s. Why do you think that it is? Not hitting certain developmental stages?

Yeh I’m a similar age to you and seeing how quickly the year group below got Tumblerised into so many internet fads made the social contagion aspect startlingly obvious

Personal I think that's a huge reason. Millennials have gotten nothing but shit, and then punished for not being more grateful to choke down that shit.

Most of us won't own homes, many of us will never get married or have children, we have no ability to make long term financial investments, we have almost no effective advocacy for our causes, student debt is suffocating us and chaining us to jobs that routinely violate our rights, etc.

And on top of all the material issues we're experiencing, we have to put up with article after article that basically still thinks we're little kids. They talk about us and to us like we're dumb, irresponsible little kids who made this mess themselves and now refuse to clean it up if we don't get a fucking soccer trophy or something, which is the furthest thing from the truth.

It's exhausting. It makes many of us want to regress to a time in our life when things were easier.

For sure and keep getting hammered with bizarre nihilist ideologies to top it all off lol

Why do you think that it is? Not hitting certain developmental stages?

I've definitely noticed a trend of incompetence (Failure to Launch?) among my few TRA-supportive and TiP friends (who are in their early to mid twenties). Still living with parents/relatives, dropped out of school, no real life goals or passions outside of fandom activities, unemployed, and a distinct reliance on others to validate/baby them (lack of responsibility).

Yeh and I think the ones who even 'stay in academia' (doing some bizarre queer studies research at an unknown uni) are really just trying to avoid growing up.

I'm very curious to see how this pans out in another 20 years, when all the FtL's parents have died and there is no one left to coddle them. Will they still be overly attached to little kid activities like fandom? I have seen a couple 40+ year old people wearing pokemon merchandise in public, but they're rare.

The employment market is straight up nasty. They probably looked for a job, did not get one, and then now a machine filters out all the resumes with gaps, or if no gaps then not perfect matching experience. Other times places say they're hiring but they're not - the job postings get renewed and that's it.

It's possible that in the baby boomer era, all these people would have gotten jobs and that experience would have helped them on the path to growing up. What can they do when their path to grow up straight up isn't available? They're ruined and, fixable or not, no one is even coming back to try.

[–] Gladys_Kravitz 14 points Edited

Five Geek Social Fallacies

Everyone should read this, it explains so much about the toxicity in nerd spaces and what most of us have seen/experienced.

Geek Social Fallacy #1: Ostracizers Are Evil

GSF1 is one of the most common fallacies, and one of the most deeply held. Many geeks have had horrible, humiliating, and formative experiences with ostracism, and the notion of being on the other side of the transaction is repugnant to them.

In its non-pathological form, GSF1 is benign, and even commendable: it is long past time we all grew up and stopped with the junior high popularity games. However, in its pathological form, GSF1 prevents its carrier from participating in — or tolerating — the exclusion of anyone from anything, be it a party, a comic book store, or a web forum, and no matter how obnoxious, offensive, or aromatic the prospective excludee may be.

As a result, nearly every geek social group of significant size has at least one member that 80% of the members hate, and the remaining 20% merely tolerate. If GSF1 exists in sufficient concentration — and it usually does — it is impossible to expel a person who actively detracts from every social event. GSF1 protocol permits you not to invite someone you don’t like to a given event, but if someone spills the beans and our hypothetical Cat Piss Man invites himself, there is no recourse. You must put up with him, or you will be an Evil Ostracizer and might as well go out for the football team.

This phenomenon has a number of unpleasant consequences. For one thing, it actively hinders the wider acceptance of geek-related activities: I don’t know that RPGs and comics would be more popular if there were fewer trolls who smell of cheese hassling the new blood, but I’m sure it couldn’t hurt. For another, when nothing smacking of social selectiveness can be discussed in public, people inevitably begin to organize activities in secret. These conspiracies often lead to more problems down the line, and the end result is as juvenile as anything a seventh-grader ever dreamed of.

Another analysis of the fallacies:

On the Five Geek Social Fallacies, Part II

A common theme in the GSFs is that friendship is a binary relationship. Either you are a friend, or you are an enemy. Friendship, under this definition, entails complete commonality of interests, absolute loyalty, and as much presence as possible. Friends like each other, like the same things, will do anything for each other, and will spend as much time with each other as possible. Friendship is always equal among friends. Any slight on these points is a personal attack and moves that person from friend to enemy. I’m obviously caricaturing here, but the reality is often not too far from the extreme.

GSFs 1, 2, 4, and 5 can be combined into a single statement: all my friends are all friends themselves, and everyone is welcome. It stems from a common idea that those who exclude are enemies, and the idea that a friend may not want to be around another friend, whatever the reason, moves them into the enemy zone. Nerds hate exclusion, usually stemming from school social circles and being burned by people they thought were friends. We don’t want to be hurt by excluders again, and we don’t want to hurt someone else by excluding them. Because we accept this premise, our friends of friends must be our friends, as excluding them makes us enemies in their eyes. And because these are my friends, they will accept me regardless of who I am and what I do.

GSFs 1, 3, and 5 share a common thread of “loyalty over everything because we are friends.” The act of excluding is a betrayal of the loyalty of friends, and any act that goes against friends is seen as such a betrayal. Need a ride to the airport? Done. Want some of the dinner I cooked? Of course. Come to the hockey game tonight? I have work tomorrow, but okay. We’re going to Florida for spring break, are you coming? Well, I had plans already, but…. You can see where this is going. This stems from a strong desire to keep the friends we have, and always being present is how nerds think people will like them. It makes it very hard to say “no” to anyone, even when the nerd is not in a position to live up to the promises they make.

Conversely, when people say “no” reasonably, the breach of loyalty is often blown out of proportion. What do you mean you can’t drive me to the airport? I’ve had a long week, I’m tired. Why can’t I have some of your dinner? I spent a long time making it, and I’d really like to keep it for leftovers. I thought you were going to the hockey game? I’m going to the bar with other friends tonight. Can I join you? Well, I haven’t seen them for a while, and I’d really like to catch up with them again. What about spring break? I already made plans to go to Chicago. You made plans to go to Chicago and didn’t ask me? It is often hard for nerds to accept when one of their friends has a part of their life incongruous with their perception of that friend; if they don’t act in the way that nerds expect them to act, the betrayal instinct kicks in.

Geek Social Fallacy #2: Friends Accept Me As I Am

The origins of GSF2 are closely allied to the origins of GSF1. After being victimized by social exclusion, many geeks experience their “tribe” as a non-judgmental haven where they can take refuge from the cruel world outside.

This seems straightforward and reasonable. It’s important for people to have a space where they feel safe and accepted. Ideally, everyone’s social group would be a safe haven. When people who rely too heavily upon that refuge feel insecure in that haven, however, a commendable ideal mutates into its pathological form, GSF2.

Carriers of GSF2 believe that since a friend accepts them as they are, anyone who criticizes them is not their friend. Thus, they can’t take criticism from friends — criticism is experienced as a treacherous betrayal of the friendship, no matter how inappropriate the criticized behavior may be.

Conversely, most carriers will never criticize a friend under any circumstances; the duty to be supportive trumps any impulse to point out unacceptable behavior.

GSF2 has extensive consequences within a group. Its presence in substantial quantity within a social group vastly increases the group’s conflict-averseness.  People spend hours debating how to deal with conflicts, because they know (or sometimes merely fear) that the other person involved is a GSF2 carrier, and any attempt to confront them directly will only make things worse. As a result, people let grudges brew much longer than is healthy, and they spend absurd amounts of time deconstructing their interpersonal dramas in search of a back way out of a dilemma.

(I won't post the rest, but it's definitely worth reading.)

Ahh this is really interesting! GSF2 makes a lot of sense as to why all trans people's friends are obsessed with 'affirming' them all the time

And yeh, sometimes boundaries/discipline/etiquette are important for a reason!

I worked with teens for years and still do. The kids who are outcasts always created groups: goth, emo, cutting, anorexia - this has been going on for decades. Now with the internet, trans predators on the internet, more and more kids who were isolated during the pandemic, this nonsense has exploded. I think it will recede but it will be too late for many kids who are sterile or have weak bones cause they were encouraged to take drugs as teens.

This has been clear to me from the very beginning and, as a former (?) "freak," and current parent of teens, I recognise these kids as being just like me and my friends in the 90s. While all of the factors listed here might play a role in some kids developing these identities, especially a few years ago when it was less common, I don't think any explanation is necessary anymore, other than it being a fad that appeals to a certain percentage/type of kid, just like any other fad or any other clique. I have a soft spot for these kids and am furious at the adults in their lives for not seeing it for what it is and just letting them do their thing for a while without destroying their futures.

I was also one of the freaks. But it made me latch on to a subculture mostly punk stuff and i look back on my silly hair and clothes fondly and with love.

The ex trans kids will look back and only see their mastectomy scars, their walker they need because they broke their hip twice before turning 30, their tanner 2 stage childlike penis on an adult man or even their abdominal hole they have to painfully stretch out every day and which smells like poop.

Yes 100%! The outsider kids are always the most vulnerable too so it is horrific how they are the ones preyed upon by groomers/doctors

[–] mrsmeyers 10 points Edited

Yup. And to be honest we judged these people at a glance for a reason. Most "outcasts" are not outcasts for being different but for being giant assholes, dare I say anti social, and I know this from way too much experience.

There are plenty of people who are a little weird or nerdy or different and yet don't get sanctimonious joy out of attacking others they deem "oppressors." This subset of shrieking, mostly white, creeps of both sexes have shown time and time again that they do not belong in positions of influence and DEFINITELY not as role models for children.

I'm sad for the weird people that just mind their own business because people are going to go hard against this group with great cruelty as their perversions are intricately linked. Tbh being told NO and SHUT UP was something they needed more of and didn't receive. And now we're all paying for it.

Yeh true, I’ve always tried to be extra nice to them as I try to include everyone and I’ve always felt a little different growing up due to my probable adhd/hyper creativity, although was never really seen as weird at school as I had good social skills so got on well with everyone. Only as an adult did I realise ‘ahh these people are outcasted for a reason!’

My flat mate was a weird bullied kid and living with her for a year was hell as she was so arrogant, selfish and inconsiderate to everyone. She was so entitled and had such a high opinion of herself despite being lame af

Yeh sometimes ‘live and let live’ isn’t always the best idea for these kids lol

Women also pick up on ‘creepy men’ very well because they are most likely to be dangerous.

I had the same experience growing up. I was a bit of an odd kid but I was generally helpful and nice so I wasn't really an outcast. The "outcast" girls I befriended were extremely mean for no reason at all, it felt like and yet they couldn't understand why people didn't like them. Instead they'd make excuses (sound familiar? lmao)

My hunch is that, like their adult counterparts, trans-identified teens who are opposite-sex-attracted are motivated primarily by paraphilia. This is especially true for the boys, but probably true for many girls as well. Paraphilia and social dysfunction are mutually reinforcing.

exactly. The more obsessed with the fetish they get m, the less able they are to talk or think about anything else, which makes it harder for them to function with normal people. however when they find their special glitter family of others just like them it becomes an echo chamber enforcing and escalating dangerous paraphilia's and behaviours.

Reminds me of an article posted a while back: https://ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/76793/when-all-the-nerds-died-all-the-trans-people-appeared-coincidence-mercatornet

It's no wonder this trend has taken hold through all the traditional nerd hobbies: video games, tabletop games, cosplay, etc.

That article was interesting, especially the point about otherwise smart people not properly thinking about the whole process.

It’s because their obsession is with the transitioning process in and of itself, rather than necessarily the woman part

[–] real_feminist 7 points Edited

their brains finally mature at 25

I think that stat is based on the general population. Given the high overlap with neurodiversity, I would not assume the same pattern of brain development.

ETA: That was just a hunch but I googled it and I was right.

https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/brains-of-people-with-autism-show-altered-growth-with-age/

"Total brain volume in boys with autism tends to be larger than that of controls before age 10. This difference fades between ages 10 and 15, as brain volume in controls increases. After this period, controls continue to show gains in brain volume until their mid-20s, whereas the brains of people with autism begin shrinking."

"That coincides with the transition into adulthood, which is particularly challenging for some people with the disorder. “They are faced with new demands, and they have less brain resources to deal with that,” Lange says."

Oh fair, wasn’t making a specific scientific claim, more stating how the brain keeps developing long after teen years, but thanks that’s super interesting how different brain development is in autistic kids!

That would also explain the overinflated sense of their own intelligence that autistic TIMs often have, growing up ‘extra smart’

[–] real_feminist 3 points Edited

I think it's a stat that people mention a lot and it only just occurred to me. I wasn't meaning that as a criticism of you.

That would also explain the overinflated sense of their own intelligence that autistic TIMs often have, growing up ‘extra smart’

My gut is that it's their 'theory of mind' deficit that causes this. (But I do not have any professional knowledge of the subject. Just lots of professional experience working in a field with lots of autistic people and a very high prevalence of Dunning-Krueger). Again, not meaning to be contrarian -- that's just my gut feeling and it might be wrong.

Ah interesting, especially given your experience in the field!

Dunning-Krueger makes a lot of sense.

I think also, because they’re otherwise outcast at school, the one positive trait they can try latch on to at school is being smart so they then just kinda run with it