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Radfem twitter has always kind of been this way but I'm noticing a ton of it on Ovarit now as well. Women lumping LGB people in with the TQ like we're all the same 'degenerates'. Or women willing to throw the entire LGBTQ demographic under the bus to get rid of the TQ.

I think it's a huge mistake to assume that all 'gender critical' women are inherently our allies. Other than JKR most mainstream TQ pushback is coming from the Christian right and that's...really not a good thing for us lol. I'm not trying to be a downer but I feel more politically homeless than I've ever felt.

Radfem twitter has always kind of been this way but I'm noticing a ton of it on Ovarit now as well. Women lumping LGB people in with the TQ like we're all the same 'degenerates'. Or women willing to throw the entire LGBTQ demographic under the bus to get rid of the TQ. I think it's a huge mistake to assume that all 'gender critical' women are inherently our allies. Other than JKR most mainstream TQ pushback is coming from the Christian right and that's...really not a good thing for us lol. I'm not trying to be a downer but I feel more politically homeless than I've ever felt.

94 comments

Thank you for voicing this. The one that I notice frequently is the position that Lesbian and Gay people should completely closet themselves from children to protect kids from TQ gender identity content. It is clear on those threads that they also think that kids knowing that gay families exist is also exposing their children to inappropriate content.

Yes! On here I see a lot of people lumping together the idea of teaching kids that gay people exist and that's ok with teaching kids all about gender identity stuff. They act like these things are equally damaging. A lot of people in GC spaces seem to buy into the whole old perversion narrative. It's depressing. If/when there is a larger resistance to all the trans stuff, it's likely that we will also be blamed and will "go down with the ship", so to speak. I unfortunately expect a future resurgence in homophobia.

[–] Honeycreeper Bird Lesbian 13 points

Half the time the gender identity people are not gay individuals. In fact, none of the TIMs are gay. They’re straight. They don’t want to even begin to see or understand that the people pushing gender identity are straight white males with severe perversion/mental illness issues.

Lesbians get hit in the crossfire and are then brainwashed into it because they’re told that if you like women and dress/act the way you do then you must be a man, which is a new telling of old homophobia

Lesbians get hit in the crossfire and are then brainwashed into it because they’re told that if you like women and dress/act the way you do then you must be a man, which is a new telling of old homophobia

This woman called me "sir" today . . . Even after I showed her my ID, which clearly showed I was FEMALE and I refer to myself as a WOMAN . . . And I had to bite my tongue because she was so nice and mistakenly thought I was a gender special. ARGHHHH.

On reddit I remember seeing a post telling lesbians to 'clean up our mess' and gay people to start 'speaking up' and isolating ourselves from any space where children might be. As if specifically gay women haven't been at the forefront decrying this nonsense.

they also think that kids knowing that gay families exist is also exposing their children to inappropriate content.

God. My bigot-ass mother was like this. When I was a little kid, she would freak every time my second cousin brought around his boyfriend and would keep telling us kids that the guy was just his "friend" who lived with him.

I was nine and I knew my cousin had a boyfriend and I didn't fucking care. But it was amazing that a) she thought we kids were that fucking stupid and b) she thought us knowing our cousin was gay was going to do something. What the fuck was it going to do? Make us gay? Newsflash, mom, I already was! I had a girlfriend at summer camp you'll never know about!

It's hilarious to me that people think kids are that stupid or blind. Kids see me walking around in my GNC clothes. They don't explode on the spot or suddenly become gay. They just shrug and go on with their fucking lives.

This adorable little girl kept running up to me yesterday. She was being nosy and trying to read what I was writing in my notebook (which I thought I was hilarious. She was, like, four, so she didn't know any better), and she didn't catch the gay from me. Fancy that! Statistically, she'll probably be straight anyway. "Protect the children from the gays!!!!" is so fucking irrational.

[–] Mintie 6 points Edited

Yeah, I'm ashamed about being lesbian AND being good with kids, mostly because I don't want people to think I'm a pedophile when I'm around their kids. In my family's maternal language, the word for homosexual comes from the word 'pederast', which means male pedophile.

[–] Citrusburmannii 20 points Edited

Yes, have been noticing it myself. The post from yesterday in the GC circle was an unapologetic, in-your-face, blunt example of it, but I've seen numerous other examples ranging from glaring to more subtle. Many times the mods remove them, but these posts are regularly occurring and are not isolated incidents.

There are some rabidly anti-LGB, particularly lesbophobic, women wandering around Ovarit and other GC spaces. They refuse to separate us or consider us different from the TQ+ agenda and you can tell that for many of them, stopping the TQ insanity is not the final goal. Removing everything, LGB and TQ+ is end game. Step one, priority one is the TQ+, but step two, priority two is doing everything in their power to forcefully remove the LGB from existence as well.

Far as they're concerned, of which I've seen several vocalize, if they can wholly silence and eradicate us through whatever means necessary, its a win, you know, for 'the children'. Because, of course, heterosexuals never do anything wrong, they've got a clean slate, especially their men. Innocent angels, all of them. Got to keep us evil dykes at bay, lest we pervert their immaculate and pure families.

They're not our allies or comrades. They want us to disappear. They're almost always part of the far-right, christian, qanon, and other nuttiness brigades and the only thing we remotely have in common is the fact they're also unhappy with the TQ+ nonsense, but for different reasons. They're not feminists, they're obsessed with their Nigels and excuse male behavior, they've got a heterosexual and heteronormative superiority complex, among a hundred other things that simply aren't compatible with the rest of us. Once they've achieved their goals with the TQ+, I have no doubt they'll go back to their proverbial home bases and will be back to fixating on plundering gay rights once more, namely reinstating marriage as being 'between one man, one woman'. They're only pairing up with radical feminists/GC groups for the battle against the trans issues. Once done, we're disposable targets again.

I'm right with you that I feel politically homeless. I'm between a rock and a hard place and it isn't pretty. I'm not remotely down with the TQ+ bullshit, but I am not about to swing with the far right and tolerate their rampant homophobic fantasies of removing us from existence, nor their sickening worship of depraved heterosexual males they think can do no wrong. It is a strange, strange position to be in right now. We don't really fit in anywhere.

[–] JLT 5 points

The post from yesterday in the GC circle

Dang, I think I already blocked that circle.

If you don't mind me asking, what post are you referring to? I seem to have missed it, or am having trouble finding it. Great comment, by the way.

I can't locate it now too but if I'm not wrong it was a post relating to Don't Say Gay and something along the lines of people associating "lesbian" as a bad word with sex, and that saying "kids can't know they are gay or lesbian that young" was being contested. (I think. I might be mixing it up with a twitter thread...)

The argument was along the lines of some kids who would grow up to be gay or lesbian adults absolutely knowing that they WERE gay/lesbian when they were kids, and saying otherwise was another form of erasure. Also along the lines of how normalized being heterosexual was i.e the expectation that all kids are straight being fine, but saying a kid was gay was wrong. "Knowing I was wrong before I knew what I was" was a phrase that jumped out at me.

The comments were interesting. I'm still conflicted about it. I don't think I cared or thought about it that much even in terms of crushes or whatever when I was a kid, so I'm firmly in the camp of "don't label kids, let them just BE kids, regardless of who they like, this shouldn't even be on their radar until later in life" even though I'm a raging female homosexual now. I was a kid that had multiple vanilla crushes on female cartoon characters and female teachers and female friends and never had the lightbulb flip on for me until I was in my 20s. I don't think I would have called my kid self a "lesbian kid" - I was just a kid. I wouldn't want to label a kid as heterosexual or straight either, but I also can't deny how normalized shit like "he's going to grow up to score a lot of ladies" or "she's going to have to fight off the boys when she gets older" is.

[+] [Deleted] 3 points
[–] Honeycreeper Bird Lesbian 14 points

Yes homophobia is rampant amongst ovarit here and it’s really troubling.

Beyond that, it’s also very disturbing and painful to read that because of the TQ, the lesbians and gays are going to be under very heavy homophobic scrutiny, in the ways that homosexuals in the past battled so hard to change.

The perception is swinging back to “all gays are delinquents who are after your children”.

This is what the fucking TRA movement wanted in the end, to completely roll back all positive perception of homosexual individuals so they can have access to women’s spaces and bodies, and also for their own egos. These people are sick and twisted, and are not part of the gay community at all. But because they’ve been weaseling in, now the gay community has no community

[–] JLT 12 points

all gays are delinquents who are after your children

Ugh, I hate when they say that. Keep your disgusting children to yourself please.

"all gays are delinquents who are after your children."

Ugh. I guess drag queen story hour in the library is partly responsible. We need to do what we did in the second wave, have a lesbian movement independent of the gay men.

[–] Honeycreeper Bird Lesbian 3 points

More so the BDSM fetishists started taking over at pride month and then it tumbled down from there.

I am all for starting a second wave, but how would we accomplish this? There used to be the Lesbian and Gay News that would get info out but now that has folded…

How would we accomplish this?

Damned if I know. I was about 13 when the second wave got going, but every time I bring up ideas I picked up from it I get dogpiled by about 10 younger women on this site telling me I'm wrong, stupid, it would never work or I'm a monster. Early on, women wrote and copied/mimeographed their own newsletters, not relied on male owned gay media. But a group of women have to have enough cohesion to do that and I don't see that much today. All they really agree on is that they love their sunz, and that's it

[–] ALesbian 16 points Edited

I've been noticing some. People saying we deserved to have our places taken away because "we" "let the TIMs in." People blaming us for creepy f/f ships in fandoms that were invented by and for men. People getting mad if we care about having any representation. People bringing us up to imply things about us when it's not even relevant to the conversation.

Luckily I haven't seen it too much, though.

Edit: Huh, and apparently someone didn't like me sharing my experiences in this comment. How interesting. That certainly shows that there's none here /s

Oh man, sorry, I made my post about a similar topic before seeing yours. I don't have much to add beside this: sooner or later lesbians will have to break away from ALL het-controlled movements and make our own again. Then give it ten years before it gets captured by homophobes. Only dykes care about other dykes.

[+] [Deleted] 14 points

I've given up on ever finding a movement that wants to support all of my rights, or is full of people just like me. Now I just ally with different groups in cases where it's useful to achieve a particular goal and then go my own way. An example would be the marriage equality fight. It made sense to work with gay men on that issue, but as soon as we got it I stopped associating so much with them. If I had stuck around expecting them to be feminists who also care about reproductive rights or women's sports I'd just be setting myself up for disappointment. These days I'll bite my tongue and work with religious conservatives to get TIMs out of women's prisons, but I'm not going to stick around and expect them to be good lgb allies.

The biggest problem now is that TIMs control the internet, it's so hard for lesbians to come together without men these days.

[–] Honeycreeper Bird Lesbian 4 points Edited

I don’t want to work with any conservative. They aren’t our allies even if they want the trans out.

Sadly anything against trans is automatically stated as being a racist bigoted nazi and pro war in Ukraine. Which is not the case of lesbian women and GC women, but they’ll lump as many bad words as possible to try to get us to shut up about our concerns.

My main point is that no matter what we do, we will be labeled as evil, but I still don’t want to work with religious evil.

I feel like this is all the more reason for us to get involved. Dem politicians will always be extreme pro TRA agenda if the only people voicing opposition are in the far right. We have fairly widespread support among dems, all my libfem female friends are very uncomfortable with this stuff, they're just afraid to be the first person in their friend group to speak out. If we sit on the sidelines here, it allows the right to call all the shots, which won't end well for us.

[+] [Deleted] 4 points
[–] OneOddBird 7 points Edited

Lesbians need to advocate for ourselves and ally with bi women. It’s telling that straight feminists in the second wave coined the idea of the “lavender menace” and tried to push away lesbian feminists and frame us as deviant because they wanted to sanitize feminism and make it less threatening to men. Some het women are excellent allies and advocates but there is a small and vocal contingent who want to keep us away because the presence of lesbian women is threatening to “feminists” who still want to dick ride and pander to male leftists or male conservatives

Don't you find bisexual women, or women who call themselves bisexual but are straight, can be really homophobic though? Some of the most homophobic things said to me by women my age have all been said by bisexual women (or 'bisexual' women).

I agree that some bisexual women can say pretty off color things about lesbians. However, in my personal experience, I feel more threatened by straight men creepily hanging around lesbian spaces and predatory TIMs than a misguided bi woman making assumptions about lesbian sexuality. Both are harmful, but I think that a lot of the distrust between bi and lesbian women is not a good thing and only serves to undermine our class solidarity. Bi woman whining about not being included in lesbian spaces is bad, but lesbians also characterizing bi women as icky and tainted because of their attraction to men is honestly also pretty questionable.

Bi women have said odd things to me yes. But one of my exes also told me that she didn’t see me as a true lesbian and considered me “bi” because I was assaulted by a man. I was clear about it being an assault, and she knew this, but she flat out victim blamed and said the assault wouldn’t have happened “if I had accepted my sexuality sooner and didn’t try to appease my family (who were very religious.)” Shitty bi women will try to convince all women that they’re bi, but there are shitty lesbians as well. In hindsight I see a lot of behavior on both sides that isn’t the greatest, and I think our priority as lesbians should be allying with bi women against the true enemy, creepy ass men in our spaces.

and ally with bi women.

I'm sorry but bi women can fend for themselves. They're homophobic af. Constantly.

If we reached out to bi women we could 1) Educate the ones who have bad ideas about us and ensure the current of homophobia goes away and 2) crate support networks amongst wlw. A bi woman will have much more in common with a lesbian than some straight woman who thinks homosexuality is inherently deviant. Although that’s just my own humble opinion.

I hope this is okay to comment, but does this post and the comments make anyone else feel uneasy? Post from this evening

I've commented back but am expecting to get piled on (fingers crossed).

I've noticed the homophobia for a long time. It was only recently that I said fuck it and just started posting mainly in here. Let the homophobic hets and bis have the larger circles, then.

[–] Eava 11 points

Anti-trans does not mean Gender Critical. I saw a lot of this in posts about Florida's anti- trans AND anti-gay bill. The number of posters who were willing to sacrifice gay children, gay families, and gay teachers to "stop the trans" was really disturbing. They were more than happy to shove gay people back in the closet if it meant keeping anything trans related out of schools.

A key fact to keep in mind as a homosexual women participating in ANY activist “movement” of any type is that the homosexual woman will always be reviled in any context by a wide variety of women and men for many reasons.

Men will hate us because they can’t stick their dicks in us. Men of all political orientations show disdain for the female homosexual because her existence is a threat to his masculinity. Straight women who hate lesbians do so because of patriarchal brainwashing, but in the case of GC women who dislike us I think is mostly a sense of jealousy.

For all their talk about liberation from males most heterosexual women end up with male partners and can never truly escape men because their attraction to men is part of their identity. This leads to this weird repressed hatred towards lesbians because we are able to go our whole lives with zero contact with men, and since some straight women are envious they turn to homophobia as a way of hating us because they WISH they could be like us. Lesbianism is framed as “deviant” or “wrong” by homophobic women because they have to justify their own insecurities about being with men.

For all their talk about liberation from males most heterosexual women end up with male partners and can never truly escape men because their attraction to men is part of their identity. This leads to this weird repressed hatred towards lesbians because we are able to go our whole lives with zero contact with men, and since some straight women are envious they turn to homophobia as a way of hating us because they WISH they could be like us. Lesbianism is framed as “deviant” or “wrong” by homophobic women because they have to justify their own insecurities about being with men.

Yes, I see this on here all the freaking time and it's one of the reasons I just stay in the lesbian circle for the most part these days.

Lesbians can't say ANYTHING about being gay on this website without straight or bi women getting triggered and upset. We can't say we like lesbian sex without them thinking it's an attack on het sex. We can't talk about wearing men's clothes without them butting in to whine b-b-but straight women have worn pants (women's pants. . . ) since the 70s!!!!

We can't talk about being GNC without them saying everyone is GNC to make themselves feel better for conforming . . . Everyone is NOT GNC. If you're wearing women's clothes, then you're conforming to gender expectations. No one is going to assume you're gay and then harass the fuck out of you (which has happened to me an endless amount of times because I am GNC). There's nothing wrong with being gender conforming and wearing feminine clothes. But if a GNC woman talks about wearing men's clothes, then the gender conforming straight woman has to get upset and insist she's GNC, too . . . They're like small fucking children.

We can't talk about seperatism or exclusively female spaces without them whining about wanting to bring their Nigels along.

We can't talk about . . . anything that has to do with being a lesbian. I've never been able to keep straight friends. I don't know how the rest of you do it. I got stuck on an eight-hour bus ride with this fucking 65-year-old Christian woman who wanted to keep ranting about how much she loved men. . . 65 years old and STILL won't STFU about dick. And I just had to play along like I was attracted to men so she wouldn't realize I was gay and start lecturing me (I was not wearing my necktie or anything that would signaled "gayness" and she couldn't tell that I had short hair under my hood, she could only see the long part).

The sad thing is, she really, genuinely liked me and started calling me Baby Girl and looking at me with great affection. And the whole time I was miserable knowing that if she knew who I REALLY was (GAY) she would be disgusted by me and hate me because DUH BIBLE SAID.

Hets and bis are chained to their pathetic males from womb to tomb and hate us because we aren't. They have no idea, though, what it's like to walk through the world, a woman alone, without a man beside you to deter male violence and constant harassment. They have no idea how hard it is to actually BE a lesbian. They romanticize and fetish it almost as much as the men do. And people ask me why I dislike lesfic authors who aren't actual lesbians . . .

This is a phenomenon I've noticed with women who are extremely ambivalent about men-- whether feminist, anti-feminist, or apolitical-- including my own mother. There's this idea that because we are not driven to include men in our intimate lives we are somehow "getting out of something" that straight/bi women have to endure. I mean, I am truly relieved every single day that I don't have to deal with a man in my house or in my business and I do consider ending up lesbian a blessing, but the kicker is that you do not have to be a lesbian to avoid men!

I am in the fortunate position of knowing a lot of celibate/unpartnered straight women, and of the women I know who are currently partnered with men, nearly all of them are childless and act strongly independent of their relationship. While all women have to endure shit for this kind of decisionmaking, these women are not particularly remarkable demographically or as human beings... just women who discovered this worked better for them and stuck with it. In the US we are fortunate to (still) be able to make these decisions as women and have the potential to thrive under them.

The fact that there is a set of straight/bi women who will decry men on one hand-- even be extraordinarily and explicitly politically aware of how men choose to treat us and how this benefits them-- yet claim that they cannot possibly ever make choices to avoid men is bizarre to the point of something akin to a mental illness. And there is no reason why, if you do choose to partner with men, that it inherently needs to look like a female monogamous courtship -> marriage track, and in societies that tend to respect women and permit them more power, "marriage" holds a completely different place with very different responsibilities. The fact that so many straight/bi women not only become markedly and openly self-negating when you challenge their identity attachments to certain kinds of male partnership ("I'm just built to want to do all this [anti-woman social construct]") but also stoop to attacking lesbians (including the old canard, "it's not fair!!!! lesbians get to have a partnership and I don't!") belies the fact they cannot resolve quite a bit about their own existence with living among and with men.

That they will often choose to resolve everything through dissolving their own resistance to male shitbaggery-- even just to pwn a lesbian in an online argument-- is disturbing to watch, over and over again. I do not enjoy watching women online get into a tizzy about how they do not know how they can be strong, independent, self-assured, full of gusto, etc. and be attracted to men, and why are these lesbian stereotypes, it is so unfair, but oh men won't be attracted to me if I am myself, and so on. The bare fact of the matter is that men do not respect women as human beings, and heterosexuality is at a biological level a dance between male reproductive exploitation of female organisms and the female response to it. Yes, you are stuck, and yes, you will have to make your choices; yes, if you never acknowledge this fact, you will end up both sexually unfulfilled and mentally fucked.

The fact that I do not have a sexual drive compelling me to seek out male sexual attention does not mean I don't have to make my own choices about how to deal with this whole lot! I may have "got out of one dilemma" but I found myself in an absurdist reality of shit choices that it's almost impossible to explain to heterosexual (and often, bisexual) women.

This is a very well articulated argument and there’s a lot of food for thought here. However, I find that when separatism gets floated heterosexual women don’t like it because they feel like they’re being told to be celibate. Unfortunately a lot of women don’t have the guts to examine heterosexuality for what it is and how under patriarchy, heterosexuality comes loaded with a lot of baggage

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