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Appologies if this is a silly question (and if this is the wrong place to post), I'm fairly new to GC spaces; what's up with the order of the definition used here, Adult Human Female? (as opposed to adult female human I suppose)

Before coming here I'd always interpreted the use of "female" as a noun as dehumanising and kind of a misogyny red flag, like that's how incels and Ferengi (from star trek) refer to us, and it's usually reserved for talking about animals.

Female as an adjective though, and human as a noun would be more grammatically correct (sorry, I'm a snob), plus personally I'm not so comfortable with the suggestion that being female is more intrinsic to us than being human. That sort of severe othering where we're female first and foremost with our humanity getting only a passing consideration seems like the root of so much misogyny.

I'm curious to hear how this definition came about, and how others feel about it.

Appologies if this is a silly question (and if this is the wrong place to post), I'm fairly new to GC spaces; what's up with the order of the definition used here, Adult Human Female? (as opposed to adult female human I suppose) Before coming here I'd always interpreted the use of "female" as a noun as dehumanising and kind of a misogyny red flag, like that's how incels and Ferengi (from star trek) refer to us, and it's usually reserved for talking about animals. Female as an adjective though, and human as a noun would be more grammatically correct (sorry, I'm a snob), plus personally I'm not so comfortable with the suggestion that being female is more intrinsic to us than being human. That sort of severe othering where we're female first and foremost with our humanity getting only a passing consideration seems like the root of so much misogyny. I'm curious to hear how this definition came about, and how others feel about it.

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It is three objective nouns as descriptors. The person is an adult. The person is a human. The person is a female.

I don't know how it ended up as AHF. Maybe because we were emphasizing the F. But yes, I try to state it now as AFH.

Personally I was always fine with using "female" as a noun, maybe due to biology background, and also because we lack a word to mean ALL "females" (of all ages, I am seriously going to start using "gynes") but I do see how it is used misogynistically.

[–] Femina 1 points Edited

Yeah it sucks that the English language doesn't have a word that can refer to all female humans from all ages... In Indonesian there is the word " perempuan " which means female human and can be used for any female human regardless of age... To refer specifically to adult female humans there is " wanita " and to refer to females of other species like dogs, cats and plants etc there is " betina " ...

The Indonesian language doesn't seem to have a word to refer specifically to female children like the English " girl " so they just say " anak perempuan " which means " female ( human ) child " literally...

Men have used “female” to sneer at us, yes. But as already said, we are humans, we are adults, and we are female. - and that is all “woman” means, however you grammatically juggle the words. There is nothing degrading about being female whatever men like to pretend.

[–] Fury 15 points

It's the dictionary definition.

Collins, cambridge and merriam webster (just the three first results on google) say adult female human being. I was just interested to know if there was a reason behind the rearrangement, since I think a lot of women are a bit unconfortable with female as a noun (i.e. being referred to as "a female").

Oh yeah, when its not relevant ( most situations) it's rude like, "females be playing animal crossing" but in relevant context like the "maternity ward only allows females" it's appropriate use as a noun imo. When it's in the definition it's supposed to be differentiated from men so it's the most relevant word. Like how referring to someone as an adult (noun) is weird if you're not involving a function of their maturity.

It starts with female and male as the base categories here. All sexually binary creatures (which humans are, with rare disorders as the exception) fall into female and male categories.

Pointing out the binary-ness and using it as the base is the point of this definition, I think. We know we're adult, we know we're human, but some seem to need reminders about whether they are male or female. A man pretending to be female isn't a woman.

I guess you could also think of the definition like this: Woman = adult, human, female.

I agree that it is awkward to turn the adjective "female" into a noun. It's also true that using "female" by itself as a noun to describe women is a sexist and dehumanising formulation ("Females do X"; "Ask that female what she thinks")

My guess is that the "adult human female" syntax was coined by someone who wasn't necessarily that aware of grammar rules nor of the connotations of using "female" as an adjective.

The ordering of the vowel sounds makes "adult human female" easier to say than "adult female human" and more catchy to the ear. The mouth and throat are already open and soft from sounding the "uh" in "adult", making it easy to vocalise without effort the "oo" of "human" whereas "female" demands the mouth/tongue/throat be stretched sideways to sound the "ee" and then narrowed and elongated for the "ai" of "male". "Female adult human" would be a bit easier to say but still not as easy as "adult human female".

Is it the "adult human female" ordering vs "adult female human" that you find weird? I think it's mainly because of the slogan popularized a couple of years ago, but I can't remember who first came up with it. It caught on, though, and now that's just how it's known.

Yeah that's it, it just sounded weird in my head and the more I thought about it the weirder it got. I think others may have misinterpreted me slightly, I have no problem with being female, or with the word female as an adjective, just the noun form gives me the heebie-jeebies.

I figured it might just be a repeated slogan, since that's the only way it's ever written.

Yep, it's just a slogan thought up by someone. It's not a dictionary definition (in the dictionary "female" is used as an adjective) and it's not anything specific to Ovarit. Ovarit doesn't have its own definition of words. I expect most people here would agree, though, that a woman is a female human being over the age of 16 or 18.

Idk, I don't find anything dehumanising about being female personally. And the difference between us is just the physical results of anisogamy which is why the different categories/seperation exists, thus the order

Not about being female, or being referred to as a female person, but about being labelled as "females", or as "a female".

Wikipedia and Google have "adult female human" like you suggest. Cambridge has "Adult female human being." OED had "a person's wife" or some other misogynistic thing. I'm not sure which dictionary has has the one Posie Parker (KJK) decided to use, maybe it's more common in British English to use that order.

Oh " wife " ? I think that's because in many languages the word for " woman " and the word for " wife " is the same... Like in Romance languages, Greek and Hebrew for example...

I think in at least one Slavic language ( I think it was Polish? ) the old word for " woman " is now exclusively used to refer only to married women now and they use a separate word for " woman " now... The English language also has something like this since the old English word " wifman " branched off into two separate words" wife " and " woman " ...

To be fair the word for a male person can also mean " husband " in some of these languages too like in Greek and Hebrew... To call a bloke one's husband in Greek one calls him " Ο άντρας μου " for example...

Until some time in the 19th century, "wife" in English was just another word for Woman.

A handful of words still survive as evidence of this.
"Midwife", for instance, was just with + Woman in middle English, where the mid- is derived from a word that evolved into "with". And e.g. a Female fishmonger is called a fishwife, although that's an old-timey archaic word by this point.

I think it is a pity that " wife " has almost the exclusive meaning of married woman now since it sounds pretty nice and doesn't have the word " man " in it...

in Armenian, "woman" and "wife" is also the same - կին (kin). in my native language too, but we also do have a word that exclusively means "wife".

The BBC article someone else linked says that's the Google definition, maybe since then someone at google (or OED where their source is, weirdly) had the same contention.

[–] real_feminist 2 points Edited

I had never stopped to think about it but you're right.

I don't know the history of how that wording became popular within GC circles (it predates my peaking) but one possibility is Posie Parker's billboard. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45650462

This is where it came from. It was one of the earliest coordinated efforts to protest as started on mumsnet/with PP.

For those of us these ages, so before incel era, female was just a factual descriptor. It’s about words having meaning-factual meaning, not what any petulant men’s movement have made it.

"Female"/"Females", placed in a sentence as a noun, was used as a sexist way to refer to women long before the incel era.

I think whoever coined the AHF slogan wasn't aware of the connotations of putting the adjective 'female' in the syntactical place of a noun.

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