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43 comments

JK and Martina N back-pedalled in the early days. They then got informed, re-girded their loins and waded in again, for the better. Give people time.

[–] [Deleted] 19 points Edited

Sal Grover, founder of Giggle, as well. She struggled with the question at first. Now she is a TERF warrior.

Yep. We need to support the new TERFs and let them know that, unlike the woke TRAs, we're not chomping at the bit to see their lives get destroyed over every minor misstep

The scary thing is, it's not just men who are beating women into submission, so many other women have joined them. At least from what I've been seeing online. Women just berating the hell out of other women who don't use the correct pronouns or complain about being called a "birthing person" or any number of other things they don't like. It is disappointing, but I don't blame women for backing down. The vitriol is hard to take for even the strongest person.

The vitriol is hard to take for even the strongest person.

And even being fabulously wealthy doesn't make being mobbed online and falsely tarred as a bigot, homophobe, racist, etc any less draining on one's mental health. Not to mention the trauma of potentially losing all of one's friends and their social circle

Yep. You could lose your job, future job opportunities, you get death threats. I mean, it's vile. Plus, people try to twist it and make people like Macy Gray out to be transphobic or a terf or any other number of harmful labels. They don't even know if she is RadFem. Saying you can't become a biological woman does not mean you hate trans people. Saying you're a woman like Bette Midler did does not make you a hateful monster. But people online are already calling her that. Plus, no one is sticking up for her. Where are all these so called feminists in Hollywood? Completely silent. Where are all the male feminists? I haven't heard a peep. She's out there on a ledge by herself. I think both of them are incredibly brave. I don't blame them for trying to soften the blow of their words a little just so they don't get so viciously attacked.

[–] proudcatlady 16 points Edited

Honestly I’m really disheartened by women. I see more and more predatory behaviors from women online, the types of comments I used to think only men would make. An estimated 40% of women watch porn, and that number is likely rising. The women in movies for girls to look up to are either sex on legs or violent imitations of men.

Women seem to be just a few steps behind where men are now. This is the exact opposite of what would be happening in a sane society with any kind of future. I don’t know how we can survive a society where the entire population is depraved, violent, entitled, and selfish.

Edit: I’m not talking about stats skewed by TIMs either. I often check now and while most of the time it’s a TIM if I see something heinous under a woman’s name, more and more often it isn’t.

Right, I totally agree. I kind of go back and forth between anger at libfem women and feeling bad that their actions are a symptom of the society we were raised in. I think most women mean well and think they're doing what's right to be kind to everyone and include everyone and not be hurtful to men. They aren't seeing the bigger picture of how that feeds into the devaluation of women as a whole.

I grew up when porn was becoming mainstream and we were taught that it's empowering, it puts women in control, the crazier sex acts you could put up with, the tougher you were, and guys like women who are a "freak in the sheets." That's the complete opposite of the truth. So the message is really confusing and women really don't have a lot of great role models. So even though I'm disheartened too, I just try to keep reminding myself that they've been lied to their whole lives by men and by society. Hopefully, they will see the bigger picture.

Same. I feel horrible for a lot of them. Not the predators though.

It's really depressing and makes me feel more and more disconnected from my own sex class... I feel like I can't relate to so many women because of things like this and its awful.

Yeah, the people who troll my lesfic books for being GC are lesbian handmaidens. WTF.

I think women who do that think they're doing what's right by being overly inclusive, but they're not seeing the bigger picture of how it hurts not only them, but all women. It's messed up. I just hope more women start to peak.

Exactly this! I can’t begin to imagine how daunting it must feel to receive so much hate on such a large scale.

I do wonder if there’s a lot of women backing it due to our social conditioning? The sense of being told to always be kind.

Sadly I think for a lot of these women backing it, they won’t realise the extent of their damage until it lands at their own doors.

I know I'm a sensitive person and just getting a few nasty messages online sticks with me. I can't imagine getting thousands, getting death threats, or having being under the threat of having your whole career flushed down the drain for voicing your opinion. Women can't win either way right now. If you bend to the masses, you harm yourself, if you speak out, then you could lose everything. It's just unfair and it's the very reason we need to keep fighting for our rights.

We are human beings, it’s totally normal to be negatively effected from recieving hate!

I have no idea how what’s happened isn’t classed as harassment and coercion. Gender critical beliefs are protected by law.

Sadly I don’t think things will get better until the people sending threats start getting held to account and charged, it’s just nuts that it’s almost supported by media.

Modern day witch trials with a clear distinction against women, men do not recieve half the hatred when speaking out!

[–] notyourfetish 11 points Edited

I wanted to say exactly this earlier, but I didn't feel like being attacked.

I'm tired of fighting when I can't afford to while women who CAN speak up do not.

I forgave JKR because she eventually tossed her fucks away.

I'm kind of over feeling bad for celebrities who jump into this topic and then backpaddel. There are just too many mainstream examples these days that tell you very clearly what the reaction will be. If you are not ready to take even a little bit of heat from some idiots on Twitter, don't bother. Apologizing is worse. In that case I'd have them rather not say anything.

Or are these women somehow on the "Well, I'm not actually transphobic, but the way JK Rowling has been treated means that she really must have done something wrong" train? Is that why they react this way when they get the exact same treatment? In that case they truly haven't understood anything.

Yeah I agree apologizing is worse bc then that reinforces that TRA abuse and bullying works to silence us :(

I think the problem with women who back pedal is that their initial statements -- transwomen are not women -- comes from a place of simple logic, not feminism. When the TRAs come in droves to attack these women, the women's intention wasn't to stir shit, just to make a point, and they end up deciding that this fight is not worth the energy, for better or worse. The only time when women don't back down is when they are real old school feminists, they are educated on the subject and have more than just logic to back up their claim. They have receipts of how toxic TRA ideology is, and even if they get overwhelmed by TRAs and handmaidens, at least they know they went down putting up a hell of a fight, and consequently know that they are helping pave the way for other women to be brave and not give in so easily. I feel like if you want to make statements like Macy Gray and Bette Middler, you have to be hardcore peaked to not cave. And you have to not give a shit about the possibility of being cancelled. A lot of women don't have that luxury.

It’s not just the men who beat women into submission. TRAs are made up of many many women. And yes, it ultimately comes from men (at the top), but the backlash wouldn’t have been so severe without these minions.

You shouldn’t be angry with a woman who has been defeated. You should be angry with the men who have beaten her into submission.

Related:

In displaced aggression, an aggressive behavior is directed at a person or other target (e.g., a pet) that is not the source of the aggression arousing provocation or frustration. Displaced aggression occurs when it is impossible or unwise to respond aggressively toward the source of the provocation or frustration.

I don't see where she backed down and missed the news so am unsure of the context. Certainly, I'm disappointed to see it, but I can't blame her. The mobs are rageful and vengeful, fearsome. I hope she's got a good support system in position.

She did an interview where it seemed like she was held hostage, the host was smarmy and smug as hell and asking her to basically take it back before anything music-related could be discussed, and Macy said something about "women being a vibe" (which is funny to me because there's an ad campaign in my city for some drink and it has a drag queen or Tim in woman face and the caption is "It's a whole vibe") and that she learned a lot. But possibly she has backtracked that as well, I don't know I can't keep up with her anymore.

Queen MG backed down on her backdown, I was happy to see

Many seem to at first

Even Empress Rowling. Richard Dawson the atheist.

Hopefully Bette Midler will too

[–] crodish [OP] fujoshit 15 points

I'm so confused on MG now lmao did she retract that terrible interview where women were just a vibe? The news changes faster than genderfluids

From what I can find, supposedly she had posted some kind of apology tweet and took it down and replaced it with "All of you coming on my page, threatening me and calling me names – just becuz I said something you don’t agree with – be whatever you wana be, and fk off"

[–] crodish [OP] fujoshit 1 points Edited

Oh, that's old news. She backtracked after that with the interview lol

The timeline as I understand it is:

Macy Gray:

If she backtracked again after this then idk

Edit: For Bette Midler:

I'm a bit confused about her. It feels like she's said things in all directions, but the last I heard she was basically saying "you are who you say you are"?

la scapigliata keeps throwing out truths.

I agree with her entirely, especially the part where she says that she wants to wait for someone to prove herself before celebrating her since 9 times out of 10 that someone backpedals embarrassingly and becomes a puppet in TRAs' s hands.

I' ll wait for them to stand by their words before praising them.

I won't, anytime I notice someone having a rational thought about this mess we're in in the online sphere I will celebrate and send them support. Because they will need it.

Showing people support for their rationality gives them something to lean on when the mob inevitably comes, making them less likely to back down. I've never liked the "don't give people cookies for the bare minimum" attitude. Human beings thrive on positive reinforcement.

[–] crodish [OP] fujoshit 2 points Edited

Both BM and MG were given a ton of support from GCs online, JKR even tweeted her. We definitely weren't the ones sending her death threats even when she backed down. If that wasn't support idk what is lol. I don't envy the backlash she got but goddamn that's to be expected at this point, it's like they showed up to the fight with gusto in a balloon and a shield made of pasta.

Basically what immersang said.

There's a difference between showing support and praising.

I am totally OK with reaching out to the ones who speak out to tell them we are with them, but I won't go the "OMG, QUEEN!" way anymore.

Not who you replied to but yeah, I will always send support to them, but among ourselves in our own spaces, I might be reticent to declare we have someone on our side, just yet. They do need supports nd as long as my twitter account remains mysteriously unsuspended, I will tweet at GC celebrities, lol.

When the other side is sending bomb threats to women who display any wrongthink, what do you expect?

It's easy to say that wealthy, famous women have more power than us. But JKR is literally the richest woman in the world (before she gave so much money to charity anyway) and they have little stupid video game companies disavowing her. Meanwhile Elon Musk, Chris Rock, Dave Chapelle can all say whatever the fuck they want with very little pushback from the TRAfia. None of them are having their subreddits handed over to TRAs and TIMs to paint pastel baby colors. Not because they are richer than JKR, but because they are men.

[–] crodish [OP] fujoshit 3 points

Image Transcription: Twitter


la scapigliata, @ lascapigliata8

Every instance of a woman being brave and then backpedal, as soon as she tastes a fraction of male abuse that her sisters who defend women's sex based rights have been assaulted with for years, disheartens me. I will no longer rush to celebrate. They can prove themselves first.

Every woman, and especially a wealthy celebrity with financial and personal security, can say what she has to say and withstand the impotent rage of keyboard warriors for a few days, I'm sure. She doesn't need hand holding - and if she does, she'll backpedal anyway.

See you when it gets even safer, sister.

Sincerely yours,

Exhausted battalions of ordinary women who have been doing the hard work for years, for free and for no glory or fame whatsoever. xx

https://archive.ph/7zW1D


St. K.Flynnx AKA Bain-Marie Bather, @ K_Flynny369

Poor Macy Gray. How disappointing.

But…..

You shouldn’t be angry with a woman who has been defeated. You should be angry with the men who have beaten her into submission.

https://archive.ph/13UTO