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I love this comment:

Noooooo I'm gonna kill myself women are teaching themselves to chew in a way that sculpts the muscles of their midface to combat aging and the whole time the men in their lives are watching 18 year olds get ass fucked in 4K on PornHub.

It's so true. I frequently get mistaken for younger than my age but when I tell men I'm actually 33 they get turned off. Yes they want a young body but they also want a young, naive, malleable mind.

Uhm, 33 is young! Ok at 33 I thought of myself as a full adult but I wasn’t worried I was “old”. I know the whole hitting the wall incel thing but if this is what men are convincing women if we are in trouble. At 33 a woman still looks youthful but has experience to give her face some character. In actuality better than ever.

This instilling in women the fear of aging is not only a cash cow and a reflection of the sexualization of youth (disgustingly), but also an adept way to break the crone cycle and make young women not only fear aging, but try to distance themselves from older women to avoid being associated with them. This further damages our already barely-there sex-class consciousness, and makes passing wisdom from older women to younger women (like, warning them about what men are) very difficult, if not impossible.

I also thought that "uncanny valley" comment was interesting. Obviously women are not really not making facial expressions (because it's impossible not to), but it is a waste of mental energy to even try. But what's interesting in the idea that if it were possible, you'd have women looking frozen and emotionless, thus not expressing our emotions outwardly (something we're already encouraged not to do). What's creepy is men will claim that they can't tell when women are upset or when they have crossed boundaries/are abusing us unless we have very obvious/"exaggerated" expressions, like literally crying. If women were able to freeze our faces, then men would not even have to see our facial expressions at all, like when we are hurt, upset, etc. Like dolls. Very creepy idea but without local anaesthetic not possible (I don't believe that woman for example never smiled in 20 years, she may think she hasn't, she may have stopped herself smiling, which is sad, but there's no way she truly prevented her natural muscles from involuntarily contracting for all those years, I don't buy it).

I definitely believe this woman stopped herself from smiling. My aunt, who is in her sixties, stopped smiling in her twenties because she was afraid of developing wrinkles. She also makes sure to not move her lips a lot when talking, leading her to have this strange, mumbly voice that's constantly strained because it can't project properly. She still had a facelift.

More men than you'd imagine just want a Stepford Wife

I don't doubt that at all, I think men would like us not to have too many facial expressions, that was kind of my point, it gives them more plausible deniability ("I didn't know she was upset, I can never tell!" sort of thing).

[–] Lipsy #bornnotworn 18 points

if it were possible, you'd have women looking frozen and emotionless, thus not expressing our emotions outwardly (something we're already encouraged not to do). What's creepy is men will claim that they can't tell when women are upset or when they have crossed boundaries/are abusing us unless we have very obvious/"exaggerated" expressions, like literally crying.

incidentally, this is the main reason why bulldogs, pugs, Shar Peis, Chow Chows, and some other breeds of dogs ("brands of dogs" as my little sister put it😂) are less socially adept overall than most other dogs.

Those dogs have less precise motor control over their facial muscles (for reasons physiologically associated with the short-snouted, flat facial shape), and they have loose, slack, wrinkled skin that further obscures their facial expressions and tics (for essentially the same reason why you'd suck at sign language if you had mittens on).
Net result: Other dogs can't read their faces very well at all, except for the most obvious, grossly exaggerated expressions. As a result, they just don't socialize or pack very well with other dogs—and it's not uncommon for some more aggressive (almost alws unneutered male) dogs to even misinterpret their apparently stoic stare as an invitation to fight.

Dogs with cropped ears and docked tails also have communication trouble since they can't use their ears or tails to "talk" to other dogs via body language like dogs with natural ears and tails. I always found that interesting.

[–] Lipsy #bornnotworn 0 points

Yeah, goes hand in hand with those abuses being perpetrated primarily against dogs raised to fight 🤬

Tbf, Chows are guard dogs that naturally don't get along with other dogs or people much. All the others make sense though.

[–] Lipsy #bornnotworn 4 points Edited

They "naturally don't get along with other dogs" for the exact reasons mentioned here! That's almost certainly a big part of how they got the guard dog job, and/or were bred the rest of the way into it once they already had the above traits to some extent.

As for not getting along with humans... From my experience with Chows at least, I think it's more accurate to say they tend to pick exactly one human to whom to be fiercely loyal, which kinda runs naturally into being standoffish towards everybody else. Can't serve two masters, etc etc.

[–] smash_cake 21 points Edited

I’m 40 and definitely look it. I actually think makeup ages me.

Self consciousness about our appearance costs so much energy. I try not to worry about it, but there are times when I fixate on something I perceive to be “wrong” about how I look.

Going out in nature and hiking helps this feeling go away. So does being around other women my age who don’t wear makeup.

I have a daughter and I try very hard not to make negative comments about my appearance.

I also try to value the crone stage and reframe the patriarchal mindset.

40 is not even old. When I was 20 I didn't think 40 was old.

I'm 39 and absolutely in love with the confidence that comes with age

Same.

I was bored the other day so I put on a single layer of makeup. Ugh. Not only did it feel so heavy, but it accentuated the lines in my face. I took it off immediately. This was the first time in a year that I’d put any makeup on.

My mom rarely leaves the house without makeup. I think we get used to seeing ourselves a certain way. I’m used to seeing myself without makeup and it makes me happy that I don’t “need” to wear any.

Occasionally for fun I’ll put on lipstick. But in high school to my mid 30s I wore full foundation and all. It’s like a detox in a way getting away from it.

I hope I can teach my daughter to see herself differently. Not that I judge women who wear makeup. More like, I want my kid to see different possibilities.

You can die young or grow old. Every day is a gift.

For real. I'm still young but my hair has started to gray. I have black hair and here and there a silver glimpse appears.

I've always thought that the day I had seen my hair turning to gray I would have had pangs of conscience. But it did not happen. Each gray hair is one more day on this Earth, one more day I was alive. A couple years ago I was thinking about suicide but yet here I am, healthy and alive.
Gray hair is the memento that I overcame my struggles.

[–] crodish fujoshit 31 points

If men don't need it, women don't need it. Fuck all of this.

Actually we all need SPF. Melanoma is real and it’s coming for you. And you should probably cleanse, and if your skin gets dry and itchy moisturizer is important. That’s it.

Yes, and men need all that stuff too.

Like, most women are doing way too much to their face, but most men are doing too little. Most men barely manage to splash tap water on their face and brush their teeth once a day. They should be properly cleansing and moisturising and using SPF daily.

Imagine how much more pleasant the world would be if men exercised basic hygiene. One of the reasons I prefer women's company is they're just cleaner and smell better. They are also superior in many other, more important, ways. But actually personal hygiene is important too. And avoiding skin cancer.

I'm teaching my son about skincare the same way I would if he was a girl. At his age it's just wash your face, daily body lotion, spf in summer but once he's a teenager he's gonna be so fucking grateful that I taught him how to take care of his face

[–] proudcatlady 8 points Edited

You’ve got to see the post from @WeaverArachne on this. I could NOT agree more. I don’t have an issue with women spending time and money on personal appearance. I don’t mind women shaving or spending time on hair. What I don’t like is that men don’t do it. Men are not choosers and should be leading the way on ways to look better, not lagging behind.

Agreed on the hygiene thing. And the others but we’re focused on hygiene here. It really is insane clown world when women are getting poisons injected into their face and men cat be bothered to wash or do basic foot care for example.

"They should be properly cleansing and moisturising and using SPF daily."

This is not hygiene.. How is this necessary? What exactly do you mean by proper cleansing?

I genuinely do not understand why a lot of men are into women looking soooooo young.

I’m gay so beauty standards are different for lesbians and wlw, but I’ve never been into super young looking women. I actually think it’s really attractive when women look a little weathered/rugged and have unique features and signs of aging. In my partner’s case, she has some lines on her face because she’s worked her ass off since she was a teenager, and her face tells that story. Having done all that work is part of what makes her a wonderful and empathic person. I feel like to erase the lines on her face would be to erase a piece of her. Also, rugged women are hot! I know there are some men who do see that, but not enough.

I think it’s because they are into the possibility of grooming. They want young women (and girls) because they can more easily manipulate them.

It is less likely that older women will let their shit slide unchallenged.

Women these days will sacrifice a goat and smother their face in it's blood if it means getting rid of a new natural wrinkles. I hate the beauty industry so much, the fact that it still has us chained to it is infuriating.

[–] ArmedFemme 🪖🎖️ 33 points

I hate this shit so much. My mom has been dying her hair back to it's original color because she can't understand letting your hair gray, and while I'm not really able to understand it yet, I keep telling her she's beautiful no matter what, because she IS. she keeps comparing herself to 20-somethings when her natural beauty would blow them all away. Same with her slightly hooked nose, even though women of many generations before her donned it she doesn't believe she's as pretty as women with smaller ones, but it fits her face so well. It's so fucked up.

Shame. I've seen women with silver hair like stars and white hair that looks like moonlight. I'm legit jealous.

[–] notapatsy 16 points Edited

You just made this white haired greying old lady very happy. I stopped coloring my hair when I got to 50 (I colored it because I wanted a different color, not to cover grey), and said, "Someone's got to age naturally."

BTW: you just earned your moniker; a "cloudspinner" would of course like white/silver hair...

I'm only in my 30s but I'm obsessed with following the gray/silver hair trend on Instagram... it's all about women stopping the hair dye and growing out their gray hair. I love it. Andie McDowell recently grew out her gray hair and I think it's stunning.

My bff has been dying her hair silver and shimmery purple ever since she got her first grey.

It's so mystical and witchy looking

Depends on your skin shade. Some people look terrible with gray hair. I know I do. Makes me look like my own ghost. I can't wear blue-gray clothes either. Brown-grey is OK.

I plan on dying my hair when it turns gray. My mom drilled it into my head and I just can't see myself not dying it

It's just so messed up. And what is most infuriating is majority of the plastic surgeons and CEOs of these skin and hair products are literally men profiting off the insecurities of women. Ugh.

You’ve just reminded me of the “Real Self” website that always pops up. I get irrationally angry every time I see it.

“Real self”, you say? Maybe it’s a support site, maybe they show how common insecurities are actually normal and healthy, right? Nope, the exact opposite. It’s like Quora but for plastic surgeons to sell their services.

I was searching for info about deviated septum and clicked because a woman suspected she had one and was wondering if it was a health issue. She was swarmed with a sea of men telling her how ugly her nose must be but don’t worry, they could fix her.

/rant. Tldr; Men are scum and I share your anger.

Omg I have a deviated septum too. I know what you mean... in the last few years, I have gotten really skeptical of surgeons. Often times, they are just greedy creeps 🤑 trying to manipulate you into getting something that you don't even need (while also downplaying the risks associated with it).

Oh and since I am ranting about this, can I just say how passionately I detest plastic surgeons going on tiktok and targeting young, insecure girls 😑: https://uploads.ovarit.com/9861f968-62a0-584d-9712-508169598df1.jpg

I recently saw some videos taken by Madonna and I was shocked by how she looks now. I hadn't really seen any media of her in a while. She has had very extensive plastic surgery on her face. A lot of the comments on her photos were from older women who said they wished they could be "as beautiful as her, but don't have the money". It made me sad to see that. Madonna looks extremely uncanny. These women commenting these things all looked normal and well for their ages.

[–] Stealthygal 2 points Edited

She looks horrible. She also dates men about the age of her kids. I get that she probably doesn't relate to older rich men and vice versa but honestly I'm sure she could find a cute 40 or 50-something artist.

I literally have no idea what my mum’s natural hair colour is. I’m not sure she does any more. My entire life it’s never been allowed to be natural. Ditto my aunt.

My Mom is petrified of getting more gray and keeps wanting to dye it... TBH I dye my hair ridiculous colors but when I get grays I'll just try to make it even MORE gray! Men are allowed to grow gray hair, my Dad is a prime example of that. FFS

Does gray hair take bright colors well? Bc in that case, I'm gonna keep my gray hair when it comes, and just dye it fun colors

The older you get the less melanin in your hair so yes! It will be a lot easier!

That's the best part of having gray hair. I can make it pink or purple or blue without bleaching it, wait for it to wash out, then change it.

I think your mom might be my secret twin (in the hooked aquiline nose and going gray thing, not the beauty thing) except that I’ve let myself go salt and pepper with the recent trend and I’m trying to age gracefully so that I can set an example to the women coming behind me. If we never see anyone do it how will we know how? Except my efforts are in vain it seems because friends almost 15 years younger than I am are going to Botox parties. And filler parties. It makes me sad.

[–] Chickpea 21 points Edited

I have a baby face and I never understood the appeal of wanting to look younger. Trying to learn independence and self confidence as a young adult was frustrating enough, but even more so when people (men especially) would treat me like a minor into my early-mid 20s.

When I would voice my frustrations to friends and family, I was told “ha ha don’t complain, you’ll be thankful when you’re older!”. As though looking youthful was more important than safety and personal/professional growth. It made me want to scream.

I'm in my late twenties and same. Just the other day at work people walking through saw me (and another young lady) and said there was child labour here. –__–

[–] Lipsy #bornnotworn 23 points Edited

The whole thing is for naught anws. Excepting people with certain developmental syndromes that literally affect their entire aging process, EVERYBODY looks their age.
There is absolutely no such thing as 'looking older' or 'looking younger' by any significant amount (other than for those with the aforementioned syndromes). It's impossible.

If you're 19 and you have smile lines, you look like... a 19-year-old with smile lines, but you still look 19.
If you're 43 and you still have butter-smooth dark mocha skin, then you look like... a 43-year-old with uncommonly smooth skin. You still don't "look younger than 43".
If you're a 29yo Aussie who's spent every daylight hour under the ozone-hole at Bondi with no sunscreen and you have the extra wrinkles to show for it, then you'll look... well, 29, although you'll have more wrinkles than other 29-year-olds.

There's something to be said for a rudimentary skin care routine and regular sunscreen use, sure—for people of both sexes.
Going overboard with it, though, just makes you look really stupid, ridiculous, and ever so slightly not-quite-human in that 'uncanny valley' sort of way, like the young Woman in the 2 photos on the right side here. How deluded do you have to be to think that looks GOOD?

Seriously, "smile lines" is something some people naturally have, whereas others get older and barely ever get them. Look up pictures of 17 year old, even 13 year old, Kate Bush. She always had them, that's just how her face is. She looked like a child, still, though, no one thought she was middle-aged at age 13, ffs. So ridiculous.

I've had smile lines since my teens. Hated them back then. Didn't understand why I had them. Thought I legitimately had a deformity. Seriously considered some kind of filler in my 20s to deal with them but realized that I might struggle to recognize my own face if I did that. Played around (by pulled my skin back or poofing out my cheeks) that my face wouldn't look like mine anymore.

Over the years, I've made peace with those smile lines. I'm still not a huge fan of them, but they're not even really wrinkles but just how my face is. They're a part of me.

And at almost 50, I really don't have any other wrinkles at all other than those smile lines. Probably because I've been super careful with sunblock (and have good genetics). I don't look young or anything because I've got a head full of grey, but I don't have many wrinkles.

Just smile lines that I've had since my teens.

I can live with that!

I think smile lines are really attractive. Kylie Minogue had them from very young, as well as Kate Bush as SulphuricMirror mentioned.

Played around (by pulled my skin back or poofing out my cheeks) that my face wouldn't look like mine anymore.

I had the same impressions when I tried to "unhood" my hooded eyes. They were pretty, yes, but that was not my face. So uncanny...

I think it’s genetic mostly. I’ve been told I “look younger” than my age (40s), however, both my parents also looked younger for a long time (people used to express surprise that my mother was my mother). Now that they’re both in their 60s they look their age; time catches up with everyone. I don’t do some crazy skin routine or anything, however, nor do I delude myself thinking I look 25.

Also, hard living can “age” both men and women, as well as things like long term drug use/alcoholism. But most of the time it’s a genetic crapshoot.

[–] Lipsy #bornnotworn 9 points

But, just like my hypothetical SPF-zero Aussie sun worshipper, people who've lived hard tend to look uncommonly 'weathered' for their age—but the key words there are "for their age", which is still apparent to decently observant people.
That kind of weathering is distinct from the effects of the actual aging process, in multiple ways.

The same is true for the effects of drugs, time spent unhoused/exposed to the elements, intermittent or chronic food insecurity, or even the extra skin laxity that people have after cycles of gaining and losing large amounts of bodyweight.
All of these are misapprehended as "making people look older" by people whose visual attention is honestly just lower-bandwidth and more superficial—i.e., the same people whose perceptions of age also tend to be skewed by things like makeup or headwear that covers pattern baldness—but, to anybody who's rlly paying attention, nahh.

After my difficult pregnancy and after my daughter died, I immediately started looking a lot older. Perpetual grief and misery ages a lot.

I've come to love my face more though. My daughter had a lot of my features (although she was my husband's clone 😒) I'll love them forever.

I can definitely agree that what considered “looking old” is subject to a lot of narrow, BS cultural expectations. Like if a 25 year old woman gets that trendy silvery hair that’s all the rage now, she’ll have people telling her it makes her “look old” but obviously she doesn’t because she’s clearly 25. It’s just that gray/silver hair = OLD is so entrenched.

You’re spot on.

While skin does deteriorate with age, there are structural changes going on, gravity takes it toll and things slip down while fat deposits in the face reduce. That’s why a 25 year old with damaged skin looks like a 25 year old with damaged skin.

SPF is a given. Moisturisers help a lot of people, especially with dry skin. The skin is an organ with a job to do so products that actually help skin barrier function absolutely have their place as far as I’m concerned. Something like Vitamin C helps SPF work better while also helping to repair damage to the skin from pollution and UV rays.

There is a reason why older people are more susceptible to skin issues - cellulitis, ulcers etc because older skin like older organs in general is not quite as good at doing the job it’s supposed to any more. I don’t see any issue with weight bearing exercise for bone health, reducing alcohol consumption to help your liver, drinking more water to keep your kidneys going, so I don’t see an issue using products which help make your skin a bit more effective and trouble free.

I agree. I'm very particular about my night routine in general (brushing, flossing, mouthwash) and I make sure to wash and moisturize my skin, detangle my hair, etc.

I feel this post is less oriented towards a few steps in skincare routine versus the obsessive way it's going now - no sunlight, injectables, painful peels, no smiling, etc. Getting a few serums is hardly comparable.

I watched skincareaddiction subreddit change during this beauty industry bubble since 2014-2015 or so to present. I was never super active there but it has been easier to gauge the change as someone who occasionally stops by. After the dominance of tiktok really started showing in the 2018-2019 period, people started getting a LOT more hostile about extreme measures like wearing spf indoors. And in all platforms i noticed an uptick of thinking 30 was bad, and an uptick of ridiculing female celebrities that "didn't take care of their skin".

Feels good to see people pushing back and lamenting this cultural shift

I used to be an infrequent poster there as well around those periods. Still subbed so I see threads come through but I have noticed a pretty noticeable backlash to the massive "shelfies", the 15 step night/day routines, and definitely more posts yelling about reducing complexity. I hope the backlash continues because it can be a useful place, but the level of neurosis there was out of control.

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