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72 comments

This posters comments are just based all around, it's very satisfying how she demolishes this male:

What emotions do you think men are stigmatized for expressing? You mean temper tantrums? Violent outbursts? Patriotism is an emotion. Celebrating when your team wins is all kinds of emotions. Anger is an emotion. Outrage. Desire for vengeance. Pride. Courage is an emotion. Are these stigmatized? Men express emotions all the time, we are swimming in men's emotions. Women are trained from girlhood to monitor men's emotions and placate them when necessary, because if a man loses it and hits us or kills us, the first question will be, "what did she do to deserve that?"

Women are just as emotionally repressed as men are, anyway. Emotional repression is a feature of our culture, but women also have the added bonus of being required to perform positive feelings in front of others, especially men, even when they aren't experiencing those emotions, or are experiencing the exact opposite. The fact that the orgasm gap is a thing AND that men always think women they're sleeping always have orgasms is a testament to just how repressed and performative women's emotions are expected to be.

Women know they need to put work into their friendships and relationships, that's the only reason why women have more friends. Men feel entitled to expect other people (women) do this work for them so they can reap the benefits without doing any of the work. That's the difference. And you handwaving all that work is you dismissing women's time, effort, and emotional labour like it's nothing.

You also seem to be under the impression that because men see women as sex appliances, and many men will stick their dick into maybe 60% of the women they see, women have it easier re: dating. Right? Because you're taking as read that what women want is a dick stuck in them, any dick, because you want to stick your dick in women, and you are solipsistically projecting the converse desire onto women. You want to stick your dick in women, so of course women want dicks stuck in them. It's like when you look at a woman, all you see is yourself and what you want, not her. We know that. We can feel that.

If you think getting a random dick stuck in you is such an enviable thing, there are in fact plenty of men in your area who would happily stick their dicks in you, too! But that's different, right? You don't want a dick stuck in you because you're a man and want to sleep with women. Because you're assuming, against all evidence to the contrary, that what women want is just to have dicks stuck in them, because that's what they're for.

Women want a partner who gives a fuck about them as fellow human beings, and gives a fuck about their pleasure and not just his own, and makes space for her goals in life and doesn't just plow forward as if only what he wants and needs matters. You have already demonstrated that you're not a person who does any of that, because you've already bypassed the idea of even taking what an individual woman wants into consideration. It has to be the converse of what you want, because that's what we are, the converse of you, and there's no space in your rhetoric to even question that.

[–] MiMi2013 42 points Edited

Women's emotions...When I was a child in the 1970s, I watched daytime tv talk shows. I have never forgot one show, in which the female guests described the horrible things other people did to them (eg, a married man forced his lover to abort their child, on pains of him taking the child away from her and giving it to his wife to raise). And whenever the women were asked how they felt, the answers were always the same : "Ashamed. Humiliated. Guilty". Never angry or outraged. I was horrified, and all these decades later, it seems that women still swallow their anger and only display it as sadness or depression. I wish that would change. Anger seems to me the appropriate emotion to feel after being treated like trash ; I had hoped this was changing for young(er) women, but...

Anger and outage come from believing you've been wronged. Shame, humiliation and guilt are the emotions of someone who believes what happened is their fault. Until women stop being conditioned as responsible for everything (especially men's emotions), I can't see how it would change for younger women.

It's why so many men are constantly angry - their sky-high sense of entitlement telling them life, and especially women, aren't delivering what they're owed.

Shame, humiliation and guilt are the emotions of someone who believes what happened is their fault.

Hence the constant gaslighting from both men and society at large, insisting that whatever happened simply must have been our fault. Man cheated? We weren't sexy enough, available enough, perfect enough, good enough. Man abused us? We weren't obedient enough, submissive enough, pleasant enough, kind enough, understanding enough, loving enough.

There's a reason for everything, and that reason is us. We're the cause of all of it.

That's why in any discussion of feminism, I am loud about saying "Fuck equality. I just want freedom from oppression."

Men are stigmatized for expressing emotions...positive emotions about women. Men get labelled "simps" if they defend female friends from other men's demeaning sexual gossip. Men who respect their wives directions on cooking, cleaning, and childcare are "whipped". Men who express admiration and enthusiasm for female artists are suspected of ulterior motives.

It's men policing men. Take it up with your fellow men.

NGL too many men interested in female artists and things tend to turn out to be creeps. I've seen it too many times oof. But the man who loves his wife and takes care of her? How scandalous! I think men know that taking care of a woman will make them in turn feel fulfilled and they don't want that, because being vulnerable is beaten out of everyone and culture dictates that being a hardass is better than being a "simp." (Gaia, I hate that term with my whole body) Goodness I hate that term you mentioned too..."whipped." There is no negative connotation when a woman is at her husbands beck and call...ugh..barf.

NGL too many men interested in female artists and things tend to turn out to be creeps.

I know what you mean. It is very rare that a man genuinely admires and respects female artists, or acknowledges them as inspiration. They're more likely to rip off women's work.

My god, I hate "whipped" too. I think one reason men often aren't helpful around the house is because they can't stand the idea of taking directions from a woman. How many men do you know who would listen to their wife explain stain removal techniques?

Yes to all this. Two of my boyfriend’s work colleagues have been talking to him recently about their partners not wanting sex. One, after a year of therapy, is now getting a divorce and very sad about it. The other has “tried” giving oral sex. Both are “good men” and I’ve no doubt they love their wives and have not pressured them into sex - they’ve just accepted being unhappily celibate. But I do wonder whether either actually put any effort into improving their technique. Do men appreciate at all the internalized social pressure on women to not just consent to but to pretend to enjoy sexual acts they might not actually enjoy? Or find downright painful? Or the shame drilled into us about our genitalia and sexual behavior? I don’t think they even give it a second thought. Much easier to just shrug and say “well, women lose their libidos sooner than men”.

I think it’s no surprise that women go off sex after having kids like these two wives have. Did their husbands make an effort to relearn their wives bodies? I imagine that once women have a child, the thought of selflessly giving your body to an entitled lazy man is even less attractive.

Women know now that they can say “no”, and that enjoying sex is more important than meeting some social ideal of the sexy (compliant) woman. Men need to up their game and stop just whining like children, or accept that they’re not gonna get any.

Two of my boyfriend’s work colleagues have been talking to him recently about their partners not wanting sex. ... they’ve just accepted being unhappily celibate.

I think it's also super important to remember that men lie, lie, lie, lie (and are also overly dramatic fuckwits).

And I say this from personal experience. When I was going through some health issues (related to peri and other issues), my own sex drive tanked. Plus, it was painful (adenomyosis had caused me to have extremely painful orgasms that felt like knives cutting through my uterus -- most awful thing ever). But I still did my best to prioritize sex because it had always been important for us as a couple.

So we gradually went from having sex several times a week (and to be clear, I was in my mid-40s at the time, and we'd been married almost 20 years at that point) to only having sex once a week or so. My husband wasn't happy. Finally, he decided we needed to have a "talk," and we sat down and he told me he wasn't sure he was cut out for a "sexless marriage." I actually laughed in his face. It wasn't intentional, and I didn't want to hurt his feelings -- but fucking hell, how on Earth is weekly sex anywhere close to a "sexless marriage"?

I'll grant you -- our sex life wasn't anywhere near as exciting as it had been, and I really was only trying to get him taken care of so I could go to sleep. So I get that he wasn't particularly happy. BUT COME THE FUCK ON.

Anyway, after that utterly nonsensical experience, I will never just blindly believe any man who claims he's being "neglected" in the bedroom again because I know it very well may be complete and utter bullshit. Men are absolute drama queens, especially when it comes to their dicks and how often (and how) they want them "taken care of," and they will lie like anything when they decide they need more attention than they're getting. ESPECIALLY if they think their wife is getting more attention (or has more needs) than she deserves at any given moment.

The definitely LIE. Whenever I read a man’s post in deadbedrooms, it’s clear as day to me why his wife isn’t sleeping with him. He will often even explicitly relay her reasons that she’s given him. But somehow he plays dumb or has the nerve to be angry. He’ll downplay or ignore comments clearly pointing this out. And yes I’ve also seen men blatantly say “woe is me, we used to have sex daily for 10 years and she used to be my own personal porn doll, now it’s weekly and she doesn’t fulfill my fantasies (she’s “vanilla”), poor me I am sexless!” It’s fucking ridiculous.

Okay but the fact you had painful orgasms is terrible...like did your husband see your face change or any discomfort?? I laughed a bit too though with the "sexless marriage" thing...that's if for 20 years you had NO sex. LMAO

Yes, just thinking through my coupled female friends in their 30s and 40s, some are very bitter toward their husbands not helping around the house and some complain their husbands/partners don't bother with foreplay or oral anymore and just want to stick it in. One has a husband who keeps requesting porn sex acts like double anal. It doesn't surprise me that they're "meh" about sex.

Women get intense pressure and conflicting messages on all sides. Porn-addled men expect them to submit to humiliating, painful, even dangerous things like "facials", anal, and strangulation.

Any American woman who grew up watching TV shows like Everybody Loves Raymond and Home Improvement is acutely aware of the trope of the frigid wife and her sex-starved husband. The pressure to provide "maintenance sex", but also make it convincingly enthusiastic is real.

On the other hand, every single woman is also acutely aware that her sexuality, or others' perceptions of it, can utterly trash her reputation. Men who beg for nudes, record their partners during sex, or coerce or wheedle them into doing extreme sex acts can turn around and spread that information for revenge, out of pure sadism, or to gain status with other men.

No. It's hormones.

The average age of menopause in the US is 51, and over the 4-year period surrounding menopause the estrogen level drops 66%, and this has profound implications for libido. Women with more fat on their bodies often have a somewhat smoother transition, because fat tissue generates estrogen, but ultimately the only way to avoid loss of libido is to replace hormones. I'm in my fifties, as are my friends, and I'm the only one who has been replacing hormones and still has a sex life, and the rest of my friends are like, yeah, I don't want sex anymore, haven't wanted it in years, and I don't give a fuck, and if my husband doesn't like it he can just fuck off. A recent photograph of four of us was a testament to the power of hormone replacement: three women in a row who are fat and shapeless and wrinkled, and then me on the end of the row with my little waist and young skin.

By the way, hormone replacement for women is in the stone age. I've cobbled together my own DIY regimen because all the practitioners I've seen have been incompetent. It boggles my mind that no one seems to care whether the bottom drops out of women's lives at midlife and they lose their mental function, bone density, and libido. This doesn't happen to men and it's an outrage that no one's really tackled this problem yet. But I guess once we've fulfilled our reproductive function, we're useless or something?

Please share your regimen and resources. I'm on the cusp of this myself and I'm not looking forward to the incompetence of practitioners in this area.

I’ve heard that about menopause (agree with you that the complete apathy towards hrt is terrible), but these women are early 40s. Does it happen that young? Or is this something to expect as normal after having kids? To be honest that really scares me if so - I’m pregnant at the moment and I’d like to think there’s something I can do about it if it happens.

I think there are different kinds of not wanting something. Like, since I’ve been pregnant I have no desire whatsoever to drink tea whereas I was totally addicted before. But even though I don’t want it, I really miss it 1 the ritual, the relief of drinking a cup when you’re stressed, the way it makes you feel anchored in an unfamiliar place. I think if I had no libido I would want to get it back for similar reasons.

What emotions do you think men are stigmatized for expressing?

When the argument comes up that men aren't "allowed" to express emotions and women are, my mind can only think one thing.

Lust is an emotion.

Anger as well. Women receive way more push back than men for expressing anger.

It's really just crying that women are more "allowed" to do than men. But that's because people already think that we're overly emotional creatures. So in a lot of ways, it's actually less acceptable for women to cry, because we're constantly on a quest to prove people wrong about us. If we have one little slip up, everyone will go, "See? Women can't handle their emotions." And the effect is strong.

If anyone sees a man crying (or even expressing mild unhappiness or discontent) every woman in the vicinity immediately drops everything to make sure that his emotion is dealt with. Men's emotions elicit immediate action--men are rewarded for expressing emotion as it gets results. Women's emotions not so much.

I've been writing on Spinster about the received wisdom that 'women can express their emotions and men can't' which seems to me the exact opposite of the truth.

Always wonderin' why men don't spend more time with each other if they're so lonely, but that's not what they mean with 'lonely' now do they?

[–] LunarWolf 71 points Edited

I remember a while back an article circulating about how men need more physical touch, how they are "touch starved" and it's giving them mental health issues (ok so far, but wait for it) and that's why women should accept casual, "friendly" touches from male acquaintances more.

Mmmhhmmmm. Yeah, no. Not our problem. Not our responsibility to fix. But easily fixable! Dudes can start giving each other shoulder rubs. Tenderly touch the small of each others backs. More hugs and kisses on the cheeks with your man friends! Problem solved. But no, that's not what they meant by touch starved either, was it?

European and Middle Eastern men are fine with hugging each other and general platonic affection. If American men are touch-starved, they can start doing the same.

Jesus H. Christ. Of course no concern that it's bad for women's mental health if every man they know gropes and paws at them.

I'd go further, let them stick their dicks in each other! They obviously think their dick is the meaning of the universe so receiving a dick should be super fun right? They can even receive their dicks from "women" so no problem right ;) and leave us ALONE! Thanks!!

YESS! lmao I love this!

Stop grabbing women and grab eachother! Problem solved!

That’s what I found so odd about the article - if there is a rise in single men, (in a monogamous society), surely that also means a rise in single women but the article doesn’t talk about them at all and only feels sorry for the lonely men. What about the lonely women who want love but are forced into singledom through men’s shittiness lol - at least those shitty men have a choice to change

For men being with a woman is virtually always better than being single. For women, the reverse is true. Given what men are like, even if a woman wanted to be with a man she knows it is nearly always better to be single.

Sure but that’s only because men are generally shitty/subpar - most people want love and benefit from a good/loving relationship

[–] furyosa MERF 12 points

The rise in single men vs single women were slightly higher for men due to the group being studied was a specific age range, between something like 25-54 iirc. Since men tend to pair up with women younger than them it seems like fewer women under the age of 25 are chosing to partner up with men in this age range. But according to the study there was definitely an upward trend of women in this specific age range chosing the single life compared to women in this age range thirty years ago.

I don't think is good that they are pairing with older men. Just bc there's more power differential. So there's young men available? I'd rather they were the old mysoginistic fcks.

I agree about the power diferencial, but otoh maybe older men are more likely to have their shit together and less likely to be entirely immersed in porn like the younger generation? Also I’d rather be with someone who’s been able to live independently and manage adult life than someone who’s looking for their replacement mommy (assuming the older man isn’t just looking for a younger replacement to their previous mommy-lover). Difficult to tell outside of individual cases.

[–] furyosa MERF 52 points

Some of the slaves decided they didn't want to be slaves no more and now some of the masters are "lonely". Yes, that's a significant win for feminism! 🥳🎉

Let the emancipation continue!

I enjoyed reading this, but I had to disagree with the last paragraph, and in particular this sentence:

No woman is required to share her life with a man who hates women.

We may not have to marry them anymore (in a few countries at least), but every woman still has to share her life with men who hate her in other spheres that are just as important as the emotional one. Laws mostly, if not entirely, drafted and imposed by men still control our reproduction and other areas with significant impact on women. Their violence still influences, if not dictates, our movement and actions. We are still socialized to center our lives around them. Men's feelings and reactions still influence (sometimes radically so) our educational and work opportunities.

The older I get, the more female separatism seems like the only way, since men benefit too much from patriarchy to ever change and it's not like we can force them to see us as human. I know we'll never have true separatism, but I will continue to center my relationships (in all areas) with women to the greatest extent possible.

Men will inevitability be unhappy, and ultimately enraged by successful feminism (ie: radical feminism) because that will mean men will completely lose all of the privileges they enjoy as the oppressor class. To the privileged, loss of privilege will always feel like loss of rights.

Men are lesser human beings. It’s not genetic. They are not born that way. Male socialization creates lesser human beings. A world of exclusively female socialization will always be a far more livable and fully human place than a world of exclusively male socialization.

If men want a place among the fully human (women) they will all have to give up the privilege of getting to be narcissistic, selfish garbage and stop teaching their sons to be like that.

Plus, the older men of days past, although they were just as sexist and shifty in their own right, at least seemed to understand the need to bring SOMETHING of themselves to the table.. like, demonstrate some level of adult competence and self-reliance, whether it be a good career or whatever..and even the the ones that weren't set, had SOME useful skills and knew how to do a few things.

But these younger sexist assholes don't seem to possess any valuable life skills whatsoever and have just plain little to offer in return. They can barely change a light bulb, much less be useful around the house and know how to fix things when they break down. One-third of men in their twenties are chronically unemployed. They can't even take care of themselves or seem to want to. They just wanna live off their mommy or some other woman and sit around on the couch all day, eyes fixed to a computer screen.. and the ones that aren't like that, are rare and get snatched up like they're god's sacred gift to the world.

There's just nothing in it for women anymore.. besides limp, porn obsessed dicks. And that comes with it's own set of problems considering the current political climate.

High risk. Little to no reward. That is the present reality of the dating situation. And no woman with a lick of sense or integrity is going to settle for such pawtry crumbs just to have some warm body laying next to her at night..

They actually think it’s “sexist” against men to expect them to do things like pay for dates, have something to contribute to the relationship, etc. Lol ok just go be alone then because you’re not worth anything to a woman.

I know..it's such a stupid argument. They invite us and are asking US for our time so it is on them to pay for the date as far as that goes..plus we put ourselves at risk meeting up with them anyways. And we still make considerably less money for the same amount of work, so they can STFU. They're lucky to get any woman to agree to go out with them at all they way most of them act..

Either evolve or go fuck yourself in the dark hole from whence you came.

It's so strange to me that they're passing men remaining partnerless as a result of nowadays society. Back in the day it was quite common that there were men and women who remained unmarried and pretty much single their entire lives.

[–] Tq231442 9 points Edited

You read old English books about older men becoming bachelors and being pretty ok with it, and the old spinsters. I don't know why men have utter meltdowns because they don't get to be with women - aren't we so annoying, dumb, inferior, etc?

One small point, a lot of those confirmed bachelors still paid a housekeeper or had a woman taking care of the domestic work for them in some other capacity, depending on how wealthy they were (even at boarding houses).

Image transcription: r/AskFeminists

What's your take on the "rise of lonely men" article?

Comment:

That article is a validating sign of a feminist victory. Not the way any feminist intended or hoped for, but a sign of victory nevertheless.

Feminists have long aimed to dismantle the idea that women are nothing without men. There was (and still is) a lot of work to be done to shut down the expectation that women must attach themselves to a man to survive and live a respectable life, and at the same time to bolster women's self-worth so that they truly know and believe that they deserve to be treated as equal humans and partners to men, and to walk away from anyone who doesn't meet that baseline.

Feminists have been advocating for laws and processes that treat women fairly at work and in public spheres so that it's possible for women to survive and thrive on their own rather than being a financially dependent of a man. These necessary social and legal changes mean that women can reasonably and responsibly choose to stay independent if they want to, and can thus make real choices rather than coerced ones.

The fact that it's finally clear that a significant number of women no longer feel that it's necessary to settle for a partnership with a man who hates women and feels entitled to a woman's labour and body means we have won some critically important battles.

At no point were men left behind. The message of gender equality has been broadcast to everyone, not just to women. These men must have figured that feminism was bullshit and would obviously fail, so they could keep living with the busted, woman-hating worldview that locked their grandmothers into unsatisfying and limiting marriages. If shitcan men were good enough for the Boomers, surely today's shitcans are good enough to get the wife and 2.5 kids they're entitled to, right? Nope. Not anymore, according to that article. Feminism hit its mark: women are now willing and able to make choices that further their own happiness and goals rather than settle for a misogynist shitcan.

One of the things I'm constantly observing on reddit is that misogynist men believe they are the primary audience for feminism, and that when they are personally not swayed by a feminist argument, that's us failing. They seem to believe that we construct PR campaigns to tempt them to our side, and that we're waiting with bated breath to see if they'll get on board. They love to tell us that we're doing it wrong, we're too shrill and "man-hating" to win them over, and they demand that we be nicer to them. It's weird to me that they think they have that power. Women don't need misogynist men to be better people. It would be great, but we don't need them. To my mind, giving women the knowledge and power to choose what's best for them was always the point, not winning the hearts and minds of misogynist men. They get to decide who they want to be, too.

Rather than feeling obliged to sacrifice their lives to support men who hate women, women can just choose not to invite misogynists into their lives. The fact that there's evidence that this is happening in serious numbers is terrific, and is definitely a feminist victory.

For generations, feminism has done the work to explain to men what the baseline is: understanding that women are human beings just like they are, not appliances they are entitled to own and use. The fact that a number of men refuse to accept this most basic precept is really not feminism's problem. These men made their bed, and continue to make that bed. If that's who they want to be, that's their call. No woman is required to share her life with a man who hates women. And that's a wonderful thing.

Another good insight in the same thread:

I think men think that all women have people coming up to them all day long and genuinely asking “do you need any emotional support? a best friend? head?” and don’t realize that most women put a lot of effort into their friendships and communities. I’ve gone through quite a few lonely periods and gotten through them with a lot of effort. Friendships take work. Emotional intimacy takes work. If you want people to be there for you you have to be there for them. A lot of women build really strong friendships because they cannot and do not rely on their male partners to take care of 100% of their emotional needs.

The reason men are lonelier now than they used to be is because male children used to be more favored by their parents and men used to get married to their hs/college sweethearts in their early 20s. They used to go directly from a mother’s total commitment and investment to a woman whose only job is to cater to the every need of them and their eventual children. Now men are marrying later and women have opportunities to enrich their lives outside serving men. Men have to develop robust friendships and communities to adjust, and they’re not realizing this/putting in the effort

I recognize the reason I have no friends is because I don’t put in the effort. I know this. You don’t hear me crying about it almost ever. I know I’m the problem and I make no bones about it.

Yeah same, my friend group is shrinking with age, and I only have my introverted ass to blame for it. You never see women becoming angry and violent with everyone around us after social isolation, because we don't feel entitled to other people's time and care.

Hello, are we twins? Lol. I am extremely introverted and stingy with friendship (I have a lot of friendly acquaintances, almost no true friends). Looking at other women with lots of friendships, it seems like a ton of emotional labor and work that I’m not just not up for usually.

'They get to decide who they want to be, too.' Absolutely. No one's stopping them from becoming better people.

Brava.

Thanks for the transcriptions, makes it easier to save in a file of brilliant feminist analysis.

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