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White libfems crack me up.

I'm in a hobby group with thousands of people that slants white. I think I've seen one person from Mexico, and there could be one or two here or there I've missed, but I'm definitely a token within the group as a known black woman.

The majority have pronouns in their bios, trans/non-binary flags in their forum signatures, the whole woke accessory line. Yet when I brought up (and I'll admit I did it just for fun) that the very strictly enforced 'no chatspeak' rule also targeted black people for saying things like 'tryna,' the push back was immediate and adamant. When I brought up code switching being part of daily life I got crickets.

A bit later someone posted in off-topic wailing about the Capitol terrorism and how they just wanted stuff to go back to normal (TM)! This time I was sincere in saying violence has always been a normal part of our lives. I explained what it's actually like being black in America, like how my neighbors have called the police over a "suspicious person" who was in fact a relative waiting on my own damn porch for me to get home.

I got heaps of praise and many thanks for "saying this" (which is a bit off-putting for reasons that would take another post to explain, but I know they mean well so I leave it be). Five people even privately messaged me to talk about how I was sooo brave and seemed eager to have conversations. Okay, fine.

Without fail, all but one turned to talking about identity politics. You see, they cooommmpletely understood what I was going through, because they're part of "LGBTQA+" being "genderfluid" or their sister is "genderfluid."

I told them all, a lot gentler than I normally approach this topic at that, that actually the gender movement had brought me a lot of harm both as a black woman and a lesbian and I gave examples of how, but in passive ways that were open for discussion.

Crickets.

Not a single one of them has spoken to me there, on the forums, or on the discord since, and I'm sure I'm on some sort of Evil TERF list now but they can't openly brand me the way they would a white woman after all that public display of omgeward it's sooo great to hear bLacK vOicEs spEakiNg uP!

Libfems don't care about me, they care about what I can do for them. Dealing with them is no different than dealing with men of their ilk.

YES‼️ I’m a brown immigrant from a third world country, and your observation that “LibFems don’t care about me, they care about what I can do for them” is SO true for me too! Honestly, I think it’s just another form of racism. It’s just as insidious and dehumanizing, and I’m forced to shut up about it lest I be branded some sort of “terf” or “white-adjacent” or whatever they like to label people of color who disagree with them.

[–] KBash 9 points Edited

I am going to edit my other comment to add that the slight leeway vis a vis freedom of speech that the Wokerati provide for women of color in majority white nations is itself stemming from racism, as they can’t continue their minstrel parade of Wokeness if they can be openly seen silencing said women, so they just don’t say anything at all (or the more bold ones will call women of color who speak honestly about feminism “white feminists” too, perhaps with a less vicious pile-on). Considering that protecting their own interests and continuing to exploit women of color for woke points is the only reason for slightly less viciousness- i.e., racism is the only reason- it’s actually not less vicious, it’s more vicious in that it’s indicative not of cognitive dissonance but of awareness that they, the white people, are using women of color to prove themselves good people. At least they have the honesty to accord white women the respect of viciously attacking them over their views, whereas the women of color being used for virtue signaling aren’t even seen as real people worth engaging with on an issue; rather they are seen as props, and when they malfunction, simply drop them and move on to the next one.

You’re absolutely right. And I say that because what you’re saying pretty much reflects the way I’ve been treated all my life by the Wokerati, by whom I’ve been surrounded most of my life, living in California. The condescension; the constant, subtle patronizing; the ingrained assumption that they know more and understand more than you; and then you get the hostility-disguised-as-concern.

It always blew my mind how more conservative, less “educated”, more working-class and/or blue collar people (of all races and backgrounds) were far more likely to treat me as a fellow human being and not some exotic specimen from a foreign land. Not to say that right-wingers were always welcoming and accepting - far from it! Many weren’t, but many also were. And at least with them you knew where they stand, what they really thought. Much easier to deal with, and avoid if needed!😂

Okay, but I have an observation I wish to share - this is strictly about engaging in dialogue, not the parading of minorities. I have no experience with that, as our country is not set up that way. But our country is set up that it is very hard to speak about feminism between races, as the moment I don t agree with someone of a different race (even if the conversation has been and still is strictly about feminism), someone will pop up and call me a racist. And, like most wokers, it will only take about 5 minutes before I was banned from the group entirely. Now everyone (except me) feels validated, but the feminist conversation has died. Therefore I seldom engage in any debate with other races, simply because I can't. Now, maybe this works differently in the US, but I know I often feel powerless. How do we prevent this from happening?

[–] KBash 10 points Edited

I have noticed how white liberal feminists parade black women in what I can only call a show of minstrelsy, in order to prove their woke credentials. It has nothing to do with “listening to black people,” and is no different than that hilarious photo op of Trump with his black supporters (hilarious because he could not pretend to pray for even one minute, lol).

I have also noticed that when I have spoken up for sex-based rights, and when I have discussed my own experiences of constant sexual assault and rape, it is black women who silently like or might be brave enough to actually comment and agree, saying my experiences echo theirs; not white women, who will instead proceed to verbally burn me at the stake, all while, in the height of irony, calling me a white feminist.

I am guessing that my experiences of sexism are more akin to many black women’s because I have also been picked on for intersectional reasons (if libfems actually understood intersectionality, they wouldn’t come after me this way; they fail to realize white women can also experience other axes of oppression apart from sexism), because of my mental differences (I won’t say illnesses) of ADHD and bipolar 2. Predatory men pick on the most vulnerable and despised women of society, so they pick on women of color, poor women, prostituted women, addicted women, and mentally atypical women. My risk of rape was nearly the same of that of a Native American woman, slightly more than that of an African-American woman; and once you’ve been raped once, especially young, the chances of it happening to you again skyrocket. I have found that women of color and other white women with difficult backgrounds or mental difference understand my experiences of sexism a lot better than your average white libfem. Then again, maybe those white libfems have similar experiences and don’t speak about them for fear of being branded white feminists, I don’t know.

This was a long way of saying I have always been a radical feminist, because I have always had my eyes open. I find similarities in the kind of sexism I’ve faced when I meet women from other countries like Mexico or South Korea. What liberal feminists can’t admit is that it happens here too and yes it is that bad. Our problems in the States, including for the most privileged of women, are as bad as they are for women in South Korea; we’re just policing each other from talking about it.

I have always related more to women who have experienced the same level of sexism I have and can speak about it openly. This is usually women of color, both because they are also more targeted and because they have slightly less to fear from the Wokerati, although it’s cold comfort considering the Wokerati don’t actually make life better for anyone, they just virtue signal, and the tiny amount of freedom of speech afforded women of color in some circles doesn’t protect them from the systemic violence and disenfranchisement they face from the rest of society, which of course woke liberals do absolutely no real work to remediate.

Edited to add that the slight leeway vis a vis freedom of speech that the Wokerati provide for women of color in majority white nations is itself stemming from racism, as they can’t continue their minstrel parade of Wokeness if they can be openly seen silencing said women, so they just don’t say anything at all (or the more bold ones will call women of color who speak honestly about feminism “white feminists” too, perhaps with a less vicious pile-on). Considering that protecting their own interests and continuing to exploit women of color for woke points is the only reason for slightly less viciousness- i.e., racism is the only reason- it’s actually not less vicious, it’s more vicious in that it’s indicative not of cognitive dissonance but of awareness that they, the white people, are using women of color to prove themselves good people. At least they have the honesty to accord white women the respect of viciously attacking them over their views, whereas the women of color being used for virtue signaling aren’t even seen as real people worth engaging with on an issue; rather they are seen as props, and when they malfunction, they simply drop them and move on to the next one.

I am not black, (middle eastern/west Asian) but I grew up surrounded by black people. Moving to a predominantly white place was jarring for me. They are passive aggressive as hell and only want you (and anyone darker than the shade of eggshell) to speak up solely to confirm their beliefs on your kind.

I spoke out against Islam and was called "biased". Yeah, it's a garbage religion that treats women like shit. Reality is my bias, Tiffany.

[–] NO 1 points

This is why I am so against the blm movement, when white people shout BLM they don’t mean it, they only want their picture posted online at a blm March so they can say that they are activists and progressive but then turn around avoid the black person at work, give them the shitty jobs at work, don’t stop for black people in the streets who try to cross the street (but they would for a white person), they avoid places where a lot of black people life, think “this is a shitty part of town” when driving past a playground full of black kids, assume nothing when the full cast to a show is all white, are surprised and feel “betrayed” when they find out the podcast speaker is black.

There’s only so much I know as a white immigrant... but I feel that blm will make things worse in work cities, on an individual level.

This is tone-deaf and ironic to me.

So you're against a movement for black people because of the way SOME white people behave within that movement? Do you also feel that women should cease certain movements and strategies based on the way men behave or is it only us blacks who have to toe this line?

What alternatives would you as a white person suggest that we as black people do, and why are you better qualified to decide them than Alicia Garza, Patrisse Cullors, Opal Tometi and the thousands of black activists networking under the BLM banner?

[–] NO 0 points

I’m only talking about the parroting that happens in relation to it by those who are only interested in the brownie points. not the movement itself and what it stands for.

And I don’t know what a black person should do, but white people should do more than just chant the next woke think without thinking about it and thinking “well only xyz people are racist I would never be racist” and being in an echo chamber of “us vs them” stops them from being able to se their own biases.

They are too comfortable in their american dream over consumist bubble and don’t want anything to change at all.

I think that, yes, libfems are complicit in the problems right now. But I'm also aware it does not cut along the lines of race. Many, maybe most, libfems are white, yes. But radfems come in all colors. I would just hope we all take a breath and remember we're all fighting this thing together, regardless of race. We should not be pitting white against POC. Then we get split up again, and the groups fighting het reduced in numbers once more. And so the opposition wins: not through their own works, but through women's inability to fight together.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: outside of the mostly white English-speaking world, across this whole globe, feminism resembles what we call "radical" feminism more than any other kind. Women's oppression is so obviously and overwhelmingly sex-based. The personal cost to us as a class (females) are too high to pretend otherwise.

YES!!! Radical feminism is just plain old feminism, full stop. It's why in places where a feminist movement is just getting off the ground, the platform and goals are based around the same platform and goals of radfem.

But we are just called "old fashioned and out of touch" by the woke MRA "feminists." They really, really don't like to admit that women are still oppressed in the western world.

I think an inherent flaw of the current American liberal movement is that they hold up token minorities but only those who agree with them. So then you have the outlier minorities who aren't radfems as the face of the libfem movement, and everybody thinks that's what's representative of that kind of feminism. It's a mess.

Yep. I have several black cousins who identify as non-binary and can't wait for any opportunity to chant TWAW. If anything, in some ways certain groups of young black women are more susceptible to this because suddenly a bunch of white people want to put them on a token throne and listen to what they have to say. They're all involved in fandom culture and are excited that all these people cared about Black Panther and having more black characters in other media.

They haven't yet gone against the grain enough to see that black voices only matter when they're saying the words the majority white voices want them to say, so as far as they see it these are the white people who finally "get it" and care about them the way they've wanted all along.

Several of their friends have told them to disown me for being a "TERF," which they haven't, but I pointed out to one of them how eager these "allies" were to speak over them when they were trying to explain why they won't just disown their family. One of them lied and claimed she had cut me out, I presume to keep from being kicked out of the Woke Club she's part of. Can't say your peace and you have to lie about your own family to maintain these friend circles, but sure, they're Woke.

This just helped me parse out what annoys me about claims about whether “the subaltern can speak,” because trotting out somebody for woke points is such a thing right now. The original reference is to a long conference paper by Gayatri Spivak, which almost nobody manages to read because it is most often reproduced in insanely difficult to read excerpts, and her early writing is difficult anyway. But what I finally sorted out was that many people concluded from this famous paper that “subalterns,” minorities who win apparent acceptance in the mainstream can’t actually say anything meaningful, because they are too colonized to do so.

But what people are explaining here is how they and I have had similar experiences as a racialized woman in Canada, are only allowed to speak if they say what the mainstream or in this specific case liberal feminists want to hear. And it is even more insidious, because they will boost what they want to hear, bury any more nuanced or dissenting things said, and then try to bully you into “educating yourself” by which they really mean “shut up or do as you’re told.”

I have read several people commenting that accusations and threats from extremists reveal what those extremists wish would happen. Maybe there is a parallel here in a less extremist form, in that who the liberal feminists tell about with their accusations of “white feminism” is themselves, not anyone else.

Anyway, thanks for this post and to everyone who has been commenting so wonderfully – that Spivak paper has annoyed me ever since I had to read it for a class, and while I probably still have no clue what she wrote, now at least I’ve learned something new! lol

Noticing racial dynamics in any given social/political situation is not "pitting white against POC." More likely it's making note of how white and POC are already pitted against one another by something else entirely.

Ditto for the europeans and the white elites almost everywhere around the fucking globe

Attacking "white-feminism" was never about intersectionality, it was always a way to attack feminism itself and divert attention.

[–] PeakNarcissism 21 points Edited

Yep. It's the canceling of feminism. Nobody wants to be associated with "white feminism" or called a terf on the left, just like women on the right don't want to be a "feminazi".

The result being there is NO actual feminism in the US.

[–] Researcher1536 10 points Edited

Start at the weakest point (everyone hates white women bc they're "Karens") and work your way through other groups of women demonizing everything they do, say, think, and voila! Pretty soon all women are the worst beings on the planet.

The “Karen” slur will eventually be applied to WOC. Just a matter of time.

[–] [Deleted] 0 points Edited

I’ve already seen it on Twitter and other places... all ya gotta do is disagree with one of their pre-approved “woke” talking points and ta-da — they get all sour and call you all sorts of names and they get really savage with WoC and Black people who don’t agree with them... suddenly they are “Uncle Tom” (if it’s a Black Man) or race traitor and I’ve even seen racial slurs thrown around... it makes my skin crawl really...

This post is so perfect, it gives me chills. It's what I think every time I see some lib fem try to argue that the hijab is actually empowering and feminist (though they never say the same about a nun's veil or mantillas or Ultra Orthodox head coverings for whatever reason). Or when my wife was told at her oh-so-woke nursing school that, if she gets a female Muslim patient, she should look to the patient's husband, father, or son to make all the healthcare decisions instead of letting the patient decide for herself. They would complain about "white feminism" out one side of their mouth, while denying Middle Eastern women the right to their own healthcare decisions out the other.

Oh my god. that comment about looking to the Muslim woman’s husband, father, or son makes me sick. I cannot believe that nursing schools are teaching this ass backwards misogynist garbage. Don’t female patients get slapped with the hysteria card enough?? Don’t women and poc and have their symptoms dismissed on the regular by entitled white shithead doctors!? Libfems should focus their energy on how it takes 10 years on average for a woman to be diagnosed with endometriosis. THAT would be making a positive difference in women’s lives. Instead they are teaching women to disregard the autonomy of their female patients the same way the white male medical establishment has for decades. All the whole patting themselves on the back about how woke they are.

"BuT YoU HaVe tO ReSpeCt ThEiR CuLtUrE!!!!" Apparently misogynistic culture trumps female autonomy.

Say whaaaaat. Ask the men??

That's how they operate. The men call to make the appointments, they chose the doctor, they chose the medical care decided upon.

Yep. It's "cultural competence" apparently. My wife got a point taken off her test for getting that answer wrong.

This is so true. I honestly can't comprehend the lack of critical thinking and total tunnel vision amongst western libfems. Do they really not see what's before them, how do they justify their wilful ignorance? I just dont see what they are benefitting from throwing less privileged women under the bus. Is it security, arrogance or virtue signalling?

It appears to be a bit of both. Liberal feminists want to have their cake and eat it too. They "care" about these minority groups of women but only in name and only as long as they agree ideologically on every single front. So in practice these "feminism is for everybody" feminists end up hurting the vast majority of women of color, lesbians, women in conservative cultures/religions (Muslim women possibly being number one), sex workers, etc who they claim to want to protect. Just watch how they denigrate and dehumanise women who dare speak up about very real, very widespread travesties like female genital mutilation. Liberal feminists seem to think policing women's speech and thoughts is activism.

Honestly, it reminds me a lot of how white activists, in an effort to seem woke, often end up amplifying the least concerning issues that women of color face. Like endlessly talking about black women not having as many makeup options due to skin color rather than attempting to listen to us talk about male-on-female violence in black communities, or police brutality against black women, or black women's abuse in medical care, or the mistreatment of black women in the prison/legal system. A lot of that is stemmed in a long intertwined history of misogyny and racism. But they only seem to care about the racism part and disregard how integral biological sex is. These perhaps well-meaning people go on to parrot common talking points with the exact tunnel vision you mentioned. And when they finally encounter actual black women, for example, who intimately know the struggles of working-class women of color that don't actually agree with their flawed understanding of black perspectives, they go off. They get offended. They can't see past their own desire to be seen as a good and caring person and paint us as the bad guy.

Suddenly, everything you know and have experenced means nothing. You've made them confront the flaws in their approach and they don't like it. Now you're the enemy. I see this pattern repeat so often against all kinds of women that liberal feminists claim to want to uplift and protect. The hypocrisy is very glaring.

Honestly, it reminds me a lot of how white activists, in an effort to seem woke, often end up amplifying the least concerning issues that women of color face. Like endlessly talking about black women not having as many makeup options due to skin color rather than attempting to listen to us talk about male-on-female violence in black communities, or police brutality against black women, or black women's abuse in medical care, or the mistreatment of black women in the prison/legal system.

This is so spot on. It is absolutely maddening!

Honestly the way that libfems undermine feminism and turn people against us by parroting on about non-issues and making us look like hysterical idiots. I'm thinking free the nipple, manspreading etc. Like it is annoying, but these people are making it our like these are at the forefront of feminism, whilst advocating for practises that kill and destroy the lives of women and girls like pornogaphy and prostitution. It's honestly sickening.

[–] [Deleted] 5 points Edited

Not black here, but I loathe to bring up the racism I see against black women or women in extremely oppressive countries because I'm afraid of being criticized for not bringing up the "right" issue, for not having a "legit" reason to have an opinion about it because I'm not black/from country XYZ etc.. I'll retweet or like a comment that points such an issue out, but I won't reply to it, as I am afraid of "putting my foot in my mouth".

What is ironic is that most of the arguments made by black women and women from "conservative" cultures outside the US make, I can relate to. My family (despite their voting habits) was deeply deeply conservative and traditionally misogynist to it's core. I was smothered and controlled and constantly harassed about my body shape/appearance as if it was my only value, I was constantly told I'd be worthless once I lost my virginity. I'm ostracized for being a single parent. I barely hang on financially. Whereas many of the personal stories by white middle class US women don't resonate with me-- never had the chance to get a Master's degree or Doctorate, never got married, never owned a house, never had to deal with conflict between high level co-workers as I was always working at the "grunt" pink collar ground level.

The gritty gritty misogyny, the basic most traditionally experienced sexism, I see more non-white and/or non-US women discuss openly on various social media platforms. Not sure why women in my demographic avoid discussing it, perhaps due to fear of doxing, or perhaps because they didn't experience the same old-school misogyny? Can't explain it.

The makeup comment was 👏. This doesn't solve black maternal mortality or child marriage. It's like, hey, there are real issues we should fix. But that'd be difficult, and we know these faux activists hate to actually do anything meaningful because that requires hard work and time. Just tweet something for likes!

Because "liberal feminism" has turned into a men's rights movement, so of course they don't care about non-western feminists. They have to keep up the facade of being against "white feminists" so they can retain woke cred, when really they are just misogynists who want to say "I hate women!" without any consequences.

And I know the author of the image in OP knows this already. We all do. If only the libfems would wake up.

First of all, very well said.

I think one of the main issues in the kind of liberal discourse criticized here is the generalization of America as "the universal experience" because of its aggressive cultural exports and online presence. If it's not a problem in mainstream America, it's not a problem. If it's a problem in mainstream America, then it's a problem for everyone, whether or not it is actually applicable in other countries. This particular type of liberal does not realize that they are quite literally the 1% (of the world). And that they are turning a blind eye to the 99%.

(It's shocking how little money it takes to be in the top 1% of richest people in the world.)

The other issue is that attacking whiteness is a "Get out of jail free card" that offers a safe way to express opinions that would otherwise be frowned upon on otherwise oppressed or marginalized people (women, disabled people, victims of various crimes etc.). These people don't care about women, quite the opposite: they found a life hack to have their cake (virtue signal) and eat it too (dismiss and attack women). It's gotten so bad in some circles that I've seen black women be accused of being white feminists.

[–] Qiobe 21 points Edited

This is really such a perfect comment, yet its message will be conveniently ignored by those western libfems in favour of campaigns that set women's rights back.

Exactly. Gender cult is the whitest fuckery ever and liberal feminism is only acceptable for first-world white people who don't actually have to worry about trafficking or be subject to illegal porn. They can just consume the porn culture and gender show for entertainment. It's so fucking offensive for us Asian feminists when they call radfem "white feminism". Pro-gender pro-sexwork libfem is not feminism. It's white women supporting white men.

I’m sure the 99% of women in my very religious, but also very not white country, would be surprised to find out that some Americans online would call them white or wanting white approval for not agreeing that TWAW. In any case, while the experiences of women from different races or different ethnicities are certainly different and deserve nuance and care in discussion, our job as radical feminists is to find commonalities and push for changes that benefit all of us. The constant self-flagellation from some American liberal feminists about their white privilege is self-centering and not productive as opposed to elevating the voices of women of color (and not just of token women of color.)

I don’t have much else to add because everyone else has made great points but I did want to say that the tokenization of women of color and treating different groups of women of color as monoliths is so frustrating. To give an example, I grew up Muslim and in both of my parents’ countries hijab is a VERY controversial topic. The only women in my family who wore it were my grandmothers because no one is going to tell them what to do, but my mom and my aunts from both sides of the family, despite being Muslim, do not wear it and believe that it is un-Islamic. When I was a teenager I wanted to wear it because of peer pressure and both of my parents flipped and said no. When I was in college IN THE US the local imam’s wife came to speak to the women and tried to convince the hijabis that hijab was un-Islamic. It’s a super controversial topic that makes emotions flare on both sides. Yet to listen to American liberal feminists speak all Muslims love hijab and hijab is super Islamic because they’re completely unaware how controversial the subject is even amongst devout Muslims! How do they pick which Muslim women to listen to and why do they only elevate certain Muslim women with certain opinions, in the process flattening the diversity of opinion amongst Muslim women? Very frustrating and honestly very racist. The same applies to a lot of other issues as well.

I think the tokenisation of Muslim women is pretty common across the political spectrum, unfortunately; it's always either 'the hijab is great and every Muslim woman loves it!' or 'as a trans woman, I converted to Islam because in religion, absolutely everything is your choice, there are no rules, you can be genderqueer and run a pub in a bikini and your spirituality is Still Valid' or otherwise it's 'every Muslim woman must wear 6 burkas from birth and may only speak once a year at her husband's command, to tell him he's pretty neat'. I wish I could say radfems were more nuanced than other groups on this but I haven't seen it.

IA. As someone who still has a lot of both hijabi and non-hijabi Muslim friends, the topic of hijab has turned into such a politically AND emotionally charged subject. It's not going to be resolved by outside pressure at this point, it's only going to be resolved within the community. It's not fair to either hijabis or non-hijabis, whether they wear it or don't wear it by force, by peer pressure, or by choice, that women's clothing is so closely scrutinized from all sides of the political spectrum. I think we should just advocate for, in the context of the west, hijabis to not be discriminated against, and in the context of Muslim countries, non-hijabis to not be discriminated against, but that conversation has become so difficult to have.

Yeah, even when people get the foundation of "Muslim women face different problems in different countries", it always seems to just get morphed into something about hijab. I feel like everyone focuses on it because it's so visible, but it's generally a pretty low priority for Muslim women in the West at least. And outside pressure is counter-productive because then people argue that it's imperialists trying to get people to abandon their traditions, and women feel pressured to wear it to make a point etc.

I just want to get to the point where no law is forcing a woman to cover or uncover her head, and no woman's family is forcing her to cover or uncover her head, and then let's just back up and see who chooses to wear what and when. It's a piece of cloth. Human beings are so damn silly.

[–] no- 14 points

Truer words have never been spoken. Gender ideology and liberal feminism are white, western centric, pro-capitalism, privileged, and completely useless as they only empower men. Radical feminism is the real deal.

It cracks me up that people I know who call them progressives and feminists are so pro capitalism while they cheer on some kind of socialist revolution. They wouldn't get their $1100 iPhone made by Chinese children or sex trafficked porn if we actually made real social changes based on socialism. They love to laugh at religious hypocrites while not realizing they're the biggest hypocrites around who do the same shit!

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