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79 comments

[–] Carthimundia 83 points (+83|-0)

Contrapoints said something similar! He thinks that women who don't wear makeup, who have short hair, and who don't have fake acrylic nails are 'flexing' on other women. He also mentioned his paranoia in a recent Guardian interview about this gender non conforming woman he used to work with who 'showed off' how much of a feminist she was by refusing to wear makeup. See also the absolute howling and shit flung at Alicia Keys when she attended red carpet events without makeup. I thought makeup was supposed to be a 'choice' so why all this salt?

[–] chromodorisrex 76 points (+76|-0)

Because if women stop wearing it they can’t use it like the mask and costume it is to them.

For me it’s optional, for them it’s critical and they get upset when you shrug it off as unnecessary

[–] IrishTheFrenchie say_wut? 54 points (+54|-0)

THIS

They are terrified women will stop painting their faces, because if that happens how will they "signal" they are "women"?

[–] RumHam 37 points (+37|-0)

Especially since the makeup trend right now seems to be drag queen inspired, with extremely heavy foundation, contouring, and fake lashes and tons of eyeshadow. If women stop doing that kind of look then TIMs will stick out even more

[–] Jade 6 points (+6|-0)

and withouth layers and layers of colored spackling paste on their face, how will they "pass"?

[–] Hollyhock 11 points (+11|-0)

EXACTLY. I'll fully admit I have worn makeup to look attractive to men...I haven't done that since I started dating my husband (probably cause he's the kind of guy who thinks I'm beautiful w/out it). I hardly ever wear it now unless it's professional reasons when I'm already in a suit or dressed for work. It's a uniform for me and I consider it optional. Plus, I wear so little most people think I'm NOT wearing any. The optional part is critical. If I don't wear makeup, I look as much a woman as when I do. I wear it mostly these days to look professional and awake...plus, I wear it because I'm a middle-aged women and we are discriminated against in the professional world, so it's critical I look like I still 'fit in'.

I've worked in media fields and we use makeup on men all the time if they are in front of a camera...and they don't look less like men when they are wearing it ;)

[–] visits_radio 75 points (+75|-0)

So, existing naturally as a women is a flex on other women. That's actually kind of funny.

[–] citrus 20 points (+20|-0)

It kinda is though. I always have women who feel they cannot do that telling me how they wish they could do the same.

[–] Rodham 37 points (+37|-0)

I don't look great without makeup. I'm pale, I have unfortunate eye bags, and blotchy skin at times. When I finally ditched makeup I did feel "empowered" in a way I haven't felt before. It sounds corny, but there is something bold about just existing in the world as men do and not giving a shit. It's the shedding of these invisible shackles that we as women are constantly constrained by.

It seems minor but when you think about it it is astounding: around half of the population feels a sense of shame or anxiety at showing their natural face in public.

[–] Rodham 50 points (+50|-0)

I remember this. Contra is such a huge misogynist; he is praised as someone who can "deradicalize the right" because he speaks the universal language of angry white men: unrepentant misogyny. So many leftist men sing Contra's praises but are completely blind to his sexism.

Contra is third-wave, white feminism embodied. That weird "sex-positive"/trad overlap that screams "Just because you're a feminist doesn't mean you need to hate femininity!" Aka the most surface level take of any man who has no real understanding of feminism.

[–] canisminor 26 points (+26|-0)

So many leftist men sing Contra's praises but are completely blind to his sexism

Or, alternatively, they aren’t blind to it, it’s a selling point.

[–] notyourfetish 18 points (+18|-0)

he speaks the universal language of angry white men: unrepentant misogyny.

Why do I want to frame this and put it on the wall?

[–] proudcatlady 19 points (+19|-0)

Tbh you can take the “white” out and it still holds true. I don’t like white men; I just have observed a LOT of misogyny from nonwhite men. It’s not a white thing

[–] Vanityxx 43 points (+43|-0)

I think that some women feel somewhat inferior when they see a woman who refuses to perform femininity to the extent that they do. For example, some of the people who are most vehemently against female body hair are women and the only people that cared that I refuse to straighten my hair has been women. I know that I used to be that way as well, especially when someone who performed less than I did got more attention than I did lmao. The patriarchy really is a trip, it will have you critiquing and judging other women through the male gaze like you are not female yourself.

[–] sonic_fiXXation 45 points (+45|-0)

I think you have a point here. I think it's related to the 'who does she think she is?' attitude that I remember from school. When you're a girl/woman who doesn't put the effort into being the epitome of women's beauty standards, and people like you anyway, men like you anyway, and you're confident looking as you do, some women feel like you're cheating. They worked their ass off for this - whether that's for attention or just feeling confident about how they look, and you just walk in and take it without lifting a finger, especially if comparing to their idea of beauty standards, they think you look like shit, they hate that it doesn't dent your self esteem. And they get jealous. "who does she think she is?" In their minds, they've earned a position above you in the hierachy of fuckability, and you should be insecure, lacking confidence, and meek. They know they're more insecure than you. And that means you're better than them. That's what their problem is.

[–] notyourfetish 22 points (+22|-0)

I've had women treat me like I think I'm better than them (I'm GNC) and I've always wondered . . . why???? It's really depressing to read this and learn that this is actually how women think.

As if we all didn't have enough to deal with from men. Now we're attacking each other for being comfortable in our bodies?

I'm not comfortable in my body, though. I hate my body and have struggled with being skinny-fat my entire life, as well as skin problems like eczema and acne. What people mistake for "confidence" is me just being laidback by nature and being so jaded against the world (aka hating people) that I really don't give a shit what anyone thinks anymore.

I've been bullied by so many jealous, insecure women that I really, sincerely just don't care what anyone thinks. So ironically, I'm like this ("confident") because of the same people who hated me for "thinking" I'm better.

The reality is, all women have taken blows to their self-esteem due to the patriarchy. No one is "free." Not even GNC women.

Part of the reason I've been celibate for years is precisely because I hate my body and want to make it better. It doesn't matter that other women like the way I look. What matters is how I feel. I'm just as traumatized by society's beauty standards as anyone else. Only in my case, I desire to be muscular and fit, not necessarily curvy or Bay Watch.

And having a shitty ex-girlfriend who ridiculed my body doesn't help.

[–] Veneficca 34 points (+34|-0)

Yeah, recently someone described a guy's new girlfriend as "she jogs and doesn't wear makeup" and all the women groaned. Right away the girlfriend was assumed to be boring, self righteous, etc.

[–] IrishTheFrenchie say_wut? 25 points (+25|-0)

Really?

I hear that description and think she must be loads of fun, adventurous, and confident in being who she is.

[–] Hollyhock 3 points (+3|-0)

Seriously? Not trying to be a dick, but this seems quite old fashioned. Women who care about how they look tend to exercise a lot too.

[–] Hollyhock 30 points (+30|-0)

o.m.g. I know Contrapoints has an ego that needs to believe he's the smartest person in the room, but really, makeup and haircuts aren't that deep. Many, many women who never, rarely, occasionally, etc. wear makeup don't obsess about this topic. A haircut is a fucking haircut and the vast majority of women don't do it as any kind of political statement. This topic also strikes me as rather immature.

[–] Rodham 24 points (+24|-0)

It's a very classic male-pov to have. Anything a woman does must be subconsciously related to men.

[–] notyourfetish 15 points (+15|-0)

Yeah, I really hate how my hair is seen as "political." I was not prepared for this when I got an undercut. It's . . . It's just a haircut. WTF does it have to do with men or what they think?

[–] Soymilkismilk 19 points (+19|-0)

It was literally that moment in the contra video that I was fully peaked. Back then, I still thought there was something I didn't understand yet about transgenderism that would make it make sense - and it was my duty as a feminist to keep trying to understand until I did. But the moment I heard him say the makeup thing, it finally all clicked into place. This guy has NO FUCKING CLUE what a woman is, and neither does anyone who thinks the COSTUME of FEMININITY is more natural to womanhood than existing in a female body.

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[–] carpetplaydohx2 41 points (+41|-0)

So just existing in my natural form makes me a "pickme"?

I also like that nasty little touch of victim-blaming: "they still be getting cheated on."

Why do they even bother calling themselves feminists?

It's really ironic they claim other women are pick mes. when their sole goal is to "keep their men" or whatever.

[–] kitten 0 points (+0|-0)

i find that women who are very into make-up like to add a touch of nastiness/victim-blaming. they like to accuse no-makeup women of "being jealous because they don't know how to do makeup", low effort, etc. it really speaks to that makeup-wearing woman's insecurity and attachment to this man-made mask.

[–] Vanityxx 35 points (+35|-0)

Also, what is these women's obsession with preventing a man from cheating? Cheating is his fault, if he wants to cheat he will. No amount of deferring to stupid beauty standards is going to stop him.

[–] terventer_magister 20 points (+20|-0) Edited

This.

Some years ago, one of the women I knew from work and was on friendly terms with was slim, blonde, blue-eyed and would be considered absolutely stunning. I didn't know her that well but from what I could see she was warm, popular, sociable, outgoing, active and adventurous who put great effort into gifts for her loved ones. i.e the ideal perfect girlfriend everyone wanted to be, or be in a relationship with. That didn't stop two of her boyfriends cheating on her. And no-one could understand why.

An extremely creepy male coworker / former friend made a huge deal of praising his wife (who managed all the bills etc and acted like the only adult in the relationship while he blew most of his money on Warhammer / Transformers merchandise) still tried to repeatedly cheat on her with me - despite me being increasingly uncomfortable by his advances and telling him to knock it off. 'Hurr hurr I'm so socially inept, you don't compare to my perfect wife' gaslighting sack of shit.

It doesn't matter whether you tick all the boxes of the ideal partner (looks, personality, finances etc) and go out of your way to appease someone and coddle them. A cheater will always rationalise and justify shitty behaviour.

[–] hedy 16 points (+19|-3)

The male beauty standard for women also values effortlessness. It doesn't surprise me that there has to be a way for the few women who naturally meet the largely impossible standard of being effortlessly beautiful (for however brief a period of time in life) to also be unable to win.

[–] proudcatlady 10 points (+10|-0)

This is so true. I don’t understand why you’re downvoted. A woman wearing lots of visible makeup is HATED where I’m from and also very rare because she spends time and money on her face instead of on some man’s dick. There also seems to be the attitude that if a woman can stand the sight of herself in the mirror long enough to apply makeup then she’s a vain shallow b#%+.

Most cultures that value makeup-wearing also have extreme contempt for "too much" or the "wrong" kind of makeup. Since makeup use can also be a tool of upward mobility for women it is also sometimes stigmatized for that reason. Usually, though, other kinds of makeup ("minimal" styles) or bodily beauty practices take the place of face-replacement style cosmetics, such as extreme attention to hairstyle, body hair, clothing, behavioral standards, etc.

[–] Yemaya 16 points (+16|-0)

Criticizing sex industry can get you called a pick me too lol

I think it just libfems with their choice feminism mindset thinking criticism of what some women do “wearing makeup ant prostitution” is being a pick me.

[–] Hollyhock 15 points (+15|-0)

There's a lot of Scandinavian thrillers right now on Netflix and I'd suggest you check it out to see how very little if any makeup the majority of the women in all these shows wear...as it's my culture and upbringing, it's reflective of my feelings on makeup.

I LOVE how the women actors have so little artifice and makeup...(e.g. our clothing is quite practical due to the weather)...and yet, somehow, despite them being on average larger stature than most people in the world...you ALWAYS know who the women are in these shows. I'd recommend watching some because it's quite refreshing vis a vis the Kardashian extreme in other TV.

[–] isaredcup28 13 points (+14|-1)

I love wearing makeup. I just don't love when people tell me i have to. I literally never wear makeup outside of my house, not to work or anywhere. Maybe a place where i feel i won't be judged for not wearing. Then i might, lol

[–] proudcatlady 3 points (+3|-0) Edited

Hello, nice to meet a kindred spirit! Makeup is so much fun. I don’t feel good about spending money on it, but I just love it. The steps. The routines. All the colors (and so many shiny things). The products for sure. Life is so short. I know why I wear it and I try to avoid sending bad messages with it. I generally offend many more people than I please with my makeup choices. I don’t want to give it up and I won’t. But I would NEVER wear it for someone else unless they are going to give me money (work, job offer, etc). And sometimes when I’m feeling charitable I will do something my Nigel likes for a special occasion. But even that is quite rare.

[–] proudcatlady 10 points (+12|-2) Edited

This really misses the point that in some cultures and contexts, men are REALLY vocal about not wanting a woman who wears makeup. This comes from a place of deep-rooted sexism as well. Some of these “pickmes” are really GNC women living their best life, but others have found a way to cater to men and are leaning into that by NOT wearing makeup. I know this isn’t the norm all over the world. I understand that most women on Ovarit have not lived in a culture or environment where men make derogatory sexist comments TOWARD women who wear it and favor the women who don’t. That does not mean this isn’t a real phenomenon based in sexism that should be discussed and taken seriously.

I do NOT condone the makeup industry or the use of makeup. I wear it myself and have thoroughly examined this for many years and understand the pros and cons of this decision and habit.

We need to stop pretending that eschewing makeup isn’t sometimes an appeal to patriarchy. It absolutely can be.

[–] BlackCirce hag lvl 33 🧙‍♀️ 12 points (+12|-0)

Me having a face and I guess daring to show it naked in public is not an appeal to patriarchy, I’m sorry to say. It’s simply me existing as a human being. And this is true for every single other woman who does not wear makeup.

Men make lots of nasty comments about women who wear makeup and claim they prefer a woman without it and this has a simple explanation: they’re lying. There are a lot of ways to wear makeup and some men may prefer women who wear makeup that merely “corrects” the perceived flaws of the face and “enhances” the natural features, and they confuse this makeup style with not wearing makeup.

[–] Hollyhock 10 points (+10|-0) Edited

This is a good point. Makeup can be a sexist 'marker' for low class women or 'slut' women. I think this is partially true in my own culture. If anything, heavy makeup is a sign of being in an 'outgroup'. My mother would say things like, "Oh, it's ok if your friend wears that kind of makeup...it's her culture to do so." She wasn't being nasty, she was trying to say that my friend was exempt from that unspoken rule of judging women based on their heavy makeup. If my friend was from the same ethnic background as we were, I'm sure my mom would have judged her quietly.

Which cultures are you talking about? Very conservative ones where certain beauty practices are still associated with prostitution, sex outside marriage, or religious violations?

Literally any practice or non-practice can potentially be a tool of patriarchy. The super-evangelicals I grew up around did not wear makeup, but they considered cleanliness and etiquette to be the highest form of femininity and there was a similar kind of "who does she think she IS, does she think she is better than us worldly" kind of rage directed at women who refused to go above and beyond in the homemaking and personal comportment department.

[–] AnneLister 7 points (+7|-0)

I have worn makeup as a young girl and I have been makeup-free for years. Wearing makeup is pick-me behaviour. Not wearing makeup is liberation. Especially because it makes men's dicks sad.

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