Years ago I managed to shut down an idiot boss who was getting very indignant about an annual local drag show put on by straight men (usually in frumpy goodwill clothing, focus is on seeing local big names looking silly in ill-fitting dresses, kept very PG, done to raise money at Christmas for charity). He was complaining about straight men appropriating gay male culture...to a group of women. I pointed that out to him and it took the wind out of his sails a bit.

[–] [Deleted] 43 points Edited

I s2g men are incapable of seeing anything from women’s perspective unless you lay it right out flat in front of them, and sometimes not even then. They really act like we don’t even have feelings, and when we do, we’re being “hysterical” or “Karens” (which, I’m kind of amazed he didn’t have a comeback for you). It’s like they’re incapable of imagining women are human like them instead of objects to use for sex or domestic or emotional labor or just to laugh at and mock.

It was pre-widespread "Karen" usage in the immediate aftermath of metoo before the backlash really got going, and he was a professional proto-wokie (actually had a direct hand in TRAs getting their foot in the door to women's spaces). Also the right smartass tone in delivery and keeping the response short helped I think. Paraphrasing, was something like "So what you're saying is gay men are the ones who get to determine which men get to dress up as caricatures of women?" and left it at that.

Honestly I'm with the drag queens on this one. People should wear whatever the hell they want. It just doesn't make them women.

[–] furyosa MERF 45 points

Both of these groups are mocking and appropriating womanhood.

Only one group is also appropriating women's rightful indignation at being mocked and appropriated.

Here's looking at you, TIMs:


Yeah tbh I've never liked drag culture, but at least I can ignore it. I don't have my bosses forcing me to watch drag shows or drag queens showing up in my bathroom lol.

I can't pretend TIMs don't exist

Yeah, drag queens are not sending my friends rape threats on "lesbian" dating apps or mutilating children, we've got bigger fish to fry. If women stopped going to drag shows it would tank the industry, no activism required.

Except now drag queens are giving story hour at local libraries, showing up on kids shows, and performing in local high schools.

It use to be a preformance, a gag.

But it is hilarious that TIMs are claiming appropriation.

Sometimes I want that asteroid to hit.

I’d heard of this conflict long before I’d peaked or even knew what ovarit was. I remember walking past a drag show poster that had been vandalized by trans people and thinking “wow! That’s fucking stupid”.

Hahaha I remember Magdalen Berns (rest in peace) talking about this. This is when she first got called a 'terf', when she started defending gay men doing drag (at Pride I think), after the 'trans' group at her university protested. She said she thought it was ridiculous and then she got called a 'terf', researched what 'terf' meant, and the rest - as they say - is history.

I know a lot of radfems aren't fond of drag but at least drag queens are aware that it's a performance and don't demand access to women's spaces and services.

They’re forcing themselves and their sex-mad performances onto children with this “Drag Queen Story Hour”.

I get what you're saying, but imo they're equally bad. Both are men pretending to be women, just one is demanding that we pretend, too.

Women get fired for not wearing heels to work (Nicola Thorp), but men in part-time drag call themselves 'gender fluid' (Philip Bunce) and win a place in 'Top 100 Women in Business'. It's no innocuous performance, when men are rewarded and women are fired or even killed for doing or not doing it.

"In 1994, a young woman in Iran was shot dead for wearing lipstick. In reaction, a woman called Homa Darabi burned herself alive.
 When we’re talking about feminism, or women’s liberation, we’re talking about something serious. We’re talking about life and death. We’re not talking about whether we can have a seat on the board of General Motors. That’s not the issue. The issue’s not even lifestyle. The issue is survival." -Germaine Greer

Yea. I think it's like the difference between blackface and blackfishing. Both of these are offense. One is more harmful than the other.

Well, the really insulting thing, as I saw some radfem point out somewhere (wish I could remember her name), isn't that they're aPpRoPriAtiNG wOmAnHoOd. Makeup and lingerie and fishnets and simpering aren't womanhood! They're having a laugh at all the stupid things we're supposed to do to look "properly feminine." All the things that make us look stupid, make us sick (still chaps my ass that Avon, the cosmetics company, campaigns for breast cancer research when they're probably one of the CAUSES of that cancer), or damage our bodies (don't even get me started about stilettos). You've got the one group making it all into a joke performance and the other group taking it oH sO sEriOuSLy as expressions of our "gender." Puke. A pox on both their houses.

They are definitely not just satirizing feminity. They wouldn't wear shapewear and tuck if womanhood were not the subject of their caricature.

It seems like a lot of the agps don't actually tuck because they're exhibitionists

Avon causes cancer? Eh?

Check out the Environmental Working Group’s “Skin Deep” cosmetic & other personal type products data base. Deodorants, shampoo, etc. They grade on toxicity of ingredients. Some eye opening stuff. Everyday toxins and and GMOs used to be growing political/consumer issues. It’s funny how both kinda fell off the radar… Priorities changed. Lookin’ good online and trust in biotech is fashionable.

How about that.

[–] Lipsy #bornnotworn 4 points

hahah i don't rlly know why, but, this point inspired me to imagine the voice of a local 104-year-old WW2 vet going "How 'bout THEM apples!" and "Uh-oh" pronounced like uh-awwww!

I am less offended by drag queens. They aren't trying to make me ignore biology and pretend they're women.

maybe not, but they pave the way by calling each other 'she'

Drag queens have been around forever and don't think they are women. They aren't mentally ill aggressive men.

That doesn't mean that they're not harmful too. They are still mocking and dehumanizing women. I hope that one day people see drag queens as similar to minstrelsy shows.

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