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I watched Leaving Neverland yesterday (I know I’m late to the party by a few years) and was wondering what everyone’s opinions are?

What do you think of the documentary itself?

Do you believe Michael Jackson to be innocent or guilty?

I have never known a celebrity to have more erm...passionate (or rabid) fans than MJ and so I recognise this may be controversial discussion.

I thought the documentary handled the distressing subject matter well. It was well put together and obviously hard to watch at times.

Personally I lean strongly towards believing the victims. I can’t believe any parent could allow their child to sleep alone in the same room (let alone bed) as a grown man who isn’t their father. Those parents were wilfully neglectful and stupid and were essentially pimping their sons out IMO.

I don’t buy the arguments that he was “like a child” or that his actions were not nefarious. He displayed recognisable patterns of grooming and pedophilia. Due to fame, blind adoration of the masses, and talent, he got away with it.

Saying all that, the documentary is one sided (nothing wrong with that) so I’m unaware of MJ’s defence or any surrounding context.

Ultimately we’ll never know for certain. To me it’s just another case of famous men getting away with depraved and disgusting crimes. Being elevated to godlike status because they have talent or charm (usually overhyped talent and charm at that)

Please share your thoughts, I’d love to hear them :)

I watched Leaving Neverland yesterday (I know I’m late to the party by a few years) and was wondering what everyone’s opinions are? What do you think of the documentary itself? Do you believe Michael Jackson to be innocent or guilty? I have never known a celebrity to have more erm...passionate (or rabid) fans than MJ and so I recognise this may be controversial discussion. I thought the documentary handled the distressing subject matter well. It was well put together and obviously hard to watch at times. Personally I lean strongly towards believing the victims. I can’t believe any parent could allow their child to sleep alone in the same room (let alone bed) as a grown man who isn’t their father. Those parents were wilfully neglectful and stupid and were essentially pimping their sons out IMO. I don’t buy the arguments that he was “like a child” or that his actions were not nefarious. He displayed recognisable patterns of grooming and pedophilia. Due to fame, blind adoration of the masses, and talent, he got away with it. Saying all that, the documentary is one sided (nothing wrong with that) so I’m unaware of MJ’s defence or any surrounding context. Ultimately we’ll never know for certain. To me it’s just another case of famous men getting away with depraved and disgusting crimes. Being elevated to godlike status because they have talent or charm (usually overhyped talent and charm at that) Please share your thoughts, I’d love to hear them :)

43 comments

it’s rare for victims to lie about rape.

No, we can never know if an accusation is true unless there is actual proof, but that is one of the worst, and most painful parts of abuse, sexual abuse, assault, etc

I get a bit angry at the people who dismiss it with certainty. How TF can they say ‘definitely not’

I believe these men because of all the weird things I’d need to believe for this to be untrue

We know MJ was abused horribly as a child. There is no part of me that thinks Papa Joe wouldn’t give sexual access to grown assed men if it profited him.

So we have a man with a heartbreaking history of abuse and parental attachment issues. Likely sexual abuse. Like ‘the Coreys’ it’s not just women abused in Hollywood.

He has mental health issues, clearly. The surgical addiction, skin lightening etc. I know he had vitiligo but why is he trying to look lighter and remove black features in other ways?

His behavior is erratic

His friendships don’t last into adulthood

Why no adults in the rooms for sleepovers or cameras if he knows how weird this is

Yes, he was a deeply disturbed man with a harrowing backstory and a clear disregard for boundaries and societal norms. We all know what deeply disturbed men are capable of and because of that I cannot comprehend how parents could leave their children alone with him.

I have so much pity for the Jackson kids and what they endured. Young Michael suffered immensely and obviously had a lot of problems (he clearly had issues with his blackness and his body) but my sympathy ends where his behaviour towards boys begins.

I also believe his interest in children was sexual because he showed clear interest in little boys but not girls. If he was just an eccentric who enjoyed the platonic company of children then why not both? Why the clear fixation on boys? Why did they need to sleep in his room and be away from their parents? It doesn’t add up.

We can’t say for definite either way (and that must be one of the worst things for victims of SA) but I don’t know how people can outright dismiss these men as liars.

I have so much pity for the Jackson kids and what they endured. Young Michael suffered immensely and obviously had a lot of problems (he clearly had issues with his blackness and his body) but my sympathy ends where his behaviour towards boys begins.

Exactly this!! Yes

I also believe his interest in children was sexual because he showed clear interest in little boys but not girls. If he was just an eccentric who enjoyed the platonic company of children then why not both? Why the clear fixation on boys? Why did they need to sleep in his room and be away from their parents? It doesn’t add up.

And only a certain race and age group. Definitely a menu choice

We can’t say for definite either way (and that must be one of the worst things for victims of SA) but I don’t know how people can outright dismiss these men as liars.

I admire them for being able to speak out about male victims of sexual abuse. The MRAs need to support this and do their own activism, instead of bothering women who center female rape victims

[–] Tiramisuomi 1 points Edited

Hi! I have vitiligo and the struggle is really awful for people with dark skin. Because of racism, a black person with extensive disease will first by read as a "dirty/muddy" white person because white is the default. It sucks for people to hate on a person with the illness who chooses skin lightening (not you btw since you said you get it!), but I understand a lot more where people wonder why he had to make himself look more... well, white, to accompany it. Wanting to look starkly different from his previous self/look more "congruent" in a way makes the most sense to me.

Obviously, this is the only singular thing I will defend him on. I know in my 110% he was guilty, and I hate those boys' parents for prostituting their children and telling themselves sweet lies about how him being "childlike" makes it OK.

I often think of the female shrink who called CPS after seeing MJ do a creepy interview with one of his "little friends" where the child talked about sharing a bed with him. She said she was a mandated reporter and she was ready to dime his ass out!!!

I want to buy her a drink. She did the right thing, when so few people were willing to.

In the 2000s, I believed he was probably innocent. I was much more naive back then, and I didn't know much about how child predators operate. I bought into the "reliving my lost childhood" excuse. He was clearly mentally unstable, and I thought that was why he couldn't see how utterly creepy it was to share his bed with children.

As a grown woman, I have no doubt that he abused those boys. I wouldn't generally say that about someone who had been found not guilty and was no longer alive to defend himself, but these are truly exceptional circumstances. We're talking about someone who went on global television and announced that he likes to sleep with young boys AFTER paying an obscene amount to settle a child molestation case out of court.

“Reliving a lost childhood” is also how many TIMs justify pedophilic and twee behaviors. I’m not a creepy 50-year-old calling myself a girl and wishing I could have pillow fights in lingerie like all the girls totally did as kids. I’m simply reclaiming a lost childhood!

Personally, I think he’s guilty. For one, how many celebrity men have been accused of sexual violence and actually turned out to be innocent? Secondly, there was an interview with Macaulay Culkin said he shared a bed with MJ, a grown ass man. No adult in their right mind would share a bed with a child, especially one that isn’t even there. Even if there was no sexual contact, that is vastly inappropriate.

[–] chai_tea 11 points Edited

There's no doubt in my mind that he abused those kids. Check out this article https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/03/10-undeniable-facts-about-the-michael-jackson-sexual-abuse-allegations Also the rest of the articles by that author, she's been covering the topic for a long time, way before this doc.

This site http://www.mjfacts.com/ also is worth reading, and when you see the pictures of all his "friends" you can def see he had a type. The worst piece of evidence to me is when Jordan Chandler identified correctly the splotches on MJ's penis. http://www.mjfacts.com/300lb-gorilla/

Obvious pedophile is obvious. I can't believe there are still people defending Michael Jackson. How many more fucking red flags could there be? If he was some random non-famous pedophile, he would have done time. It's crazy that people can somehow force themselves to believe that all 5 admitted victims and their families are just lying about rape and abuse for shits and giggles.

This x 1000

People get swept up in idolizing MJ (and honestly pretty much every other public and even some private figures) and excuse his bs. He’s a pedo full stop. The evidence is too overwhelming and too damning.

But he also just comes off as a creep. He was a cute/sweet kid, but as he got older, his multiple surgeries and general Peter Pan like demeanor and strangely close relationship with children couldn’t be more alarming (even before accusations flooded in about him).

Yeah, he died when I was like 13 or 14, but my general impression of Michael Jackson was this creepy, weird person. I hadn't listened to his music and didn't have memories from his earlier years of stardom.

Even in his filmed interactions with the boys in the documentary, it was fucking obvious. There was this one video of him with the older accuser, James, doing a photo shoot. Their body language was not right. Even people who saw them on tour suspected something was not normal with him and that little boy. I don't believe the mom of that kid didn't know what was going on. I think she at least suspected, but she let it continue.

Take a look at the Jimmy Saville documentary. The patterns of abuse and basic immunity from criticism because of the level of fame are startlingly similar.

Very similar patterns. I do think there are people out there who are so obsessed with Michael Jackson that he could’ve molested a child right in front of them and they’d still argue his case - scary really. Idk if it was the same with Savile but it never fails to amaze me the lengths people will go to to defend evil men.

[–] Clarbg 7 points Edited

There were multiple accusers. I think four in total. The police also found books that had pictures of naked children in his home. It technically wasn't child porn as naked children isn't automatically child porn, but I saw one of the pictures on the Leaving Neverland subreddit and it looks very sexualised to me. A lot of these "innocent" photos were taken by pedophiles and disguised as "art".

Also, isn't it a bit weird that he mainly had attractive boy favourites and that he had them sleep in his bed? If he was just some random guy no one would question his guilt. He seemed like a textbook pedophile to me.

Oh yes, totally agree with you. His fixation on boys seemed sexual, if he just innocently liked children then why exclusively choose boys and why did he need them alone? He displayed classic grooming behaviour too.

The kids were left behind alone with him. I have zero respect for their parents, that whole 'blinded by fame' defence means nothing to me. It's an adult that wants alone time with your child - there is no situation in the world where that is a good thing.

As for the 'disproving' of facts, aka, witnesses walking back on their testimonies - there's a lot of people making a lot of money off of that dead pedophile. Paying .000% from that rotting gravy train to keep it flowing is an economically logical decision.

And as for his kids growing up and being normal as a proof of the pedophiles innocence - here goes big f you to you from all the kids who were molested by people within their family and grew up beating the odds. Truly, from the bottom of my heart, go f yourself.

Typical

Victims can’t win.

If they are normal people, they are lying

If they are drug addicted and suicidal, they are crazy and need the money

And what is normal? Having painful scars but still finding a way to function in life sounds pretty normal to me

Do we not call it alcoholism if the guy can hold a job and has a family who loves him but he drinks a 12 pack per night?

Did you mean to reply to me? I think he was a pedophile too and absolutely don’t think kids growing up well adjusted means they haven’t suffered abuse.

Yeah, you, because when the only other comment was in support of the pedophile you happily danced around the topic. There's the molesters and then there's the people "avoiding uncomfortable topics", "not rocking the boat".

It’s so hard to know what to believe as we can’t ever be certain in cases like this.

Those are your words. Soak them in.

But we can’t ever be certain?

I believe he was a pedophile but only the accusers, any actual witnesses and MJ himself will know for sure.

You’re being very hostile to someone who agrees with you. If I ever suspected a child was being abused I would happily “rock the boat” but in this case we are talking about something that happened before I was even born, we literally can’t be certain, even if we both 99% believe he did it.

[–] notyourfetish 6 points Edited

My mother was a huge MJ fan growing up, so I was a fan by proxy and didn't want to believe it was true for years.

Then I started doing "research" and it all clicked into place: MJ was a misognyistic gay man with AGP. His AGP manifested in trying to look like women he admired with surgery, rather than just cross dressing. All the women Micheal dated were women he wanted to BE.

I also think he was molested as a child, which stunted his emotional growth. Just the end result of alot of sexual and psychological abuse and too much fame too young, too fast. (Not excusing MJ, just stating facts).

The year Leaving Neverland came out, I was dealing with my own childhood trauma and in the process of cutting my abusive mother from my life, packing my shit, and moving far away from her. I was essentially an emotional mess.

Then I looked at LN and I saw myself in James Safechuck. His eyes were so haunted. It was exactly how I felt -- like I had been violated, because I had come to the realization that I had been manipulated and gas lighted (mind controlled) my entire life and thirty years had been stolen from me: my childhood, adolescence, and all the years it took trying to undo the trauma and damage.

You can't fake the kind of haunted look Safechuck had while talking about what happened to him. The greatest actresses are thinking about some fucked up shit that happened to them whenever they do that look on camera.

Also, at the time, I was in a place where my I knew no one would believe me. My ... unmother...is a covert malignant narcisst, which means she's very charming, a good liar, and had people convinced for years that she was good person.

If I tried to speak out, I knew no one would listen. Even I was fooled by that monster for years into thinking she was the nicest person ever, and I was just mentally ill and imagining the abuse and I'd better take my mind numbing pills again to forget about it -- as my abuser kept sweetly advising me.

MJ did the same exact shit. He drugged those kids and raped them, then told them for years that the molestation was love, while charming the rest of the world into thinking he was such a great person.

Oh, yes. No WONDER my evil-ass mother adored him. My mother saw herself in MJ (she also had abusive parents and was molested) and I saw myself in MJ's broken, confused victims.

Yes, I definitely believe he was guilty.

James Safechuck made an impression on me too. You could hear the trauma in his voice when he talked about it.

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