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My abusive ex had NPD and abused and gaslighted me so much that I’m still trying to recover from it. Yes, narcissistic abuse exists.

My ex abused me because he’s a narcissist. And because of his narcissism, he still thinks he’s in the right. So yes, narcissists deserve to be demonized and I will gladly do so.

Serious question: are personality disorders really correctly understood as illnesses or disabilities? Because the list of symptoms really sounds to me like a description of a very bad character.

Personality disorders are not considered a mental illness by psychiatrists. The current thinking is that they are not organic, because they are typically pretty unresponsive to medication.

They are strongly associated with trauma. They also tend to run in families, however that seems to be more likely an issue of nurture rather than nature.

In previous eras, we referred to this as moral insanity or poor character or just being difficult.

I don't think any of those are bad descriptors. Rather than using the term personality disorder, I tend to use the term "disordered person". I have found that people can tell what I'm talking about a little more easily, and I don't get accused of trying to diagnose anyone.

Just my 2c.

Thanks, it makes sense. Couldn't it also be natural if unfortunate variation in human brains and characters? I seem to recall reading that some children are sociopathic from a very young age, in normal-ish families.

I think it's possible that some people are just born difficult. I tend to believe that our current pandemic of cluster B traits has more to do with a sick society, however.

[–] Itzpapalotl 3 points Edited

It depends on the personality disorder. Borderline/emotionally unstable personality disorder is often seen and treated as a mental illness.

It is often treated with DBT and anti psychotics or anti depressants depending on the patient. People with this disorder frequently spend time in psychiatric wards and experience a range of debilitating symptoms; eating disorders, addiction problems, self harm and suicide attempts/ideation, occasionally psychotic breaks and disassociation. It is a disorder that leaves its sufferers vulnerable to abuse from others and is heavily stigmatised.

It is diagnosed in females far more frequently. Which, I think, is why it is very misunderstood and treated with contempt and scorn. It is a mood disorder and VERY different to NPD or psychopathy. It is associated with childhood trauma, extreme self hatred and fear of abandonment.

It also has one of the highest suicide rates. I honestly think it’s unfair to clump this illness in with other personality disorders. Yes it is hard for those living around borderlines, but that is the same for every other mental illness. Demonising it just shows very poor understanding.

I'm not demonizing anyone. Borderlines are often self-harming, but they can and often do manipulate and harm others.

Poor character plays a big role in personality disorders and especially narcissism. Two people can go through a similar shitty family situation and come out much different because of their character and their personality. And some people will go through much less and turn out much worse etc. So as in the case of narcissists for the most part I think it's just being a bad person with poor character

Its not identical but sociopathy/psychopathy appears in social animals and is believed to be caused by nature in some cases and nurture in others. They are often euthanased as they are a danger to other animals and human handlers.

''Psychopathy in chimpanzees can be defined by their levels of meanness, boldness, and lack of restraint.'' https://www.businessinsider.com/what-psychopathic-chimpanzees-can-reveal-about-human-mental-illness-2017-8?r=US&IR=T

description of a very bad character

It is.

People just want to pathologize everything and be backed by "the science" while doing it. I'm honestly shocked to see how many feminists seem to trust psychiatry.

I'm honestly shocked to see how many feminists seem to trust psychiatry.

Right? The entire history of psychiatry is made of attempts to control women.

Yes. And also, how can you distrust professionals when it comes to trans but trust them with everything else?

Yeah it seems like if you can list "symptoms" you can make an illness. My symptoms are slight frowning and persistent if intermittent scepticism.

[–] emissch 10 points Edited

Oh look, a cluster B personality claiming they are actually the victim, more news at 11.

Personality Disorders are not the same as other mental illnesses, they are maladaptive defensive mechanisms that people learn over time for whatever reason. And yes, Cluster B personalities are actually inherently bad. They are extremely difficult to treat, for one, and two, these personality disorders are specifically about the individual hurting those around them with their maladaptive behaviors. And sure, they likely learned these strategies as a coping mechanism to deal with trauma, abuse, etc. But same as the pedophile who was also abused as a child, you can't excuse bad behavior just because a bad thing happened to them.

And yes, Cluster B personalities are actually inherently bad.

Women are deliberately "diagnosed" with BPD and hystrionic personality disorder to make them look crazy and a perpetrator instead of a victim (Amber Heard anyone?). This kind of rhetoric enables this.

Not sure how incorrect diagnoses for women has anything to do with the statement that Cluster B PDs are inherently bad. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. It's not "rhetoric" either, people with cluster Bs do inflict the most harm to others around them compared to clusters A and C. Anti-social PD is a part of this group and it's literally sociopathy.

You were talking about "people", which includes both sexes. Of course I'm going to talk about how this diagnosis affects women. We do live in patriarchy so I don't know how you want to know if a woman is "incorrectly" diagnosed or not.

Anecdotally, I once commented in a private FB group that screenshots of an abusive person’s comments were showing textbook signs of Cluster B personality disorder and this person was VERY unlikely to ever change or improve.

This was based on my own unfortunately extensive experience with someone (male) like this, and also the current clinical definitions of the mindset and behaviors of cluster b disordered individuals.

Many others (mostly women) were responding about their own experiences with gaslighting and sadistic behavior, trying to advise the OP to watch out for herself, because the abuser seemed to be escalating.

In saunters a cringey “enby” woman who tries to lecture me for stereotyping, judging, and “othering” Cluster B people. I flung that sanctimonious shit right back at her, and she said my judgmental response “wasn’t cute” and that Cluster B people deserve full human rights like everyone else. 🤣 Ah yes, the human right to treat others like total shit 24/7.

What are the chances a preachy enby defending NPD and DARVOing herself into a frenzy didn’t like it when things hit too close to home? 🤔 I still wonder why tf she was even in a CLOSED GROUP for abuse victims when all she was doing was telling victims to STFU.

Ugh, all you have to do is look at the avatar to know what kind of person you're dealing with.

[–] Yemaya 9 points Edited

Is this person trying to say that people who are narcissists aren’t abusive? Is that possible? Lol rarely do narcissists seek help to treat their narcissism usually people close to them (who’ve been abused by them) are the ones that try to get them help.

That is what they’re trying to say. Every narcissist I’ve known never got help and just blamed their problems on people around them. Kind of like this person.

Externalization is one of the hallmarks of cluster B personality disorders.

It's been my experience that a lot of these people don't really comprehend what accountability is. You literally have to explain the meaning of the word to them but even then it doesn't really do any good.

I noticed that on Tumblr and even Twitter there's a subculture which demands to be catered for and listened to - but if you mention how everyone needs to take accountability of their own choices and they lose it. It's ableism apparently.

That's they key trait of NPD. The narcissist is incapable of admitting they have a problem, they will always shift blame to whoever is closest.

There is a scale of narcissistic traits. It's not black and white like they're assuming.

At one end is average people with narcissistic tendencies, usually brought on by a society that rewards people for gazing in the mirror, fussing with their appearance, and posting endless status updates about themselves. These people are annoying, but overall harmless.

At the very far end are people with full blown NPD. These people are almost never victims themselves. The far end often crosses over with other personality disorders like anti-social personality disorder, and sometimes it overlaps with actual psychopathy.

This person has a very entry level understanding of personality disorders and abuse dynamics. They're right in the sense that people aren't cartoon characters who are fully good or fully evil, but they're also making a lot of excuses for people on the far end of the narcissistic spectrum who actively abuse others every day.

The word “narcissistic” doesn’t even have to always mean NPD. Typical obnoxious twitter ass

Yes, exactly. We all have narcissistic traits, it's where we fall on the scale that actually counts.

Either a narcissist with self-interest in the matter, or someone who's so pathologically conditioned to root for the underdog no matter what he/she just reactively plays devil's advocate with anyone and anything widely condemned or criticized by society.

"The real problem is the stigma attached to being a scumbag."

And yes abuse is abuse, but abuse associated with certain pathologies tends to fall into distinct patterns, and it can be extremely beneficial to the victims of it to understand those patterns so they can respond in ways that help them regain a little more power in the situation. And recovering from abuse perpetuated by someone with a Cluster B disorder is a special kind of mindfuck; it takes time and understanding to find your way back to a mentally healthy place afterwards, and a big part of that is being able to wrap your mind around the ways your abuser's behavior/thinking was disordered (because over time you normalize it and it shapes how you respond to things).

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