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I was browsing this circle and I noticed that there was a some anti-vegan sentiment as well as a lot of easily and already debunked anti-vegan rhetoric being repeated here, and that at least one user was trying to promote meat-eating (carnism) and even went so far as to say that women were not suited to veganism, which is false.

I realize that there is a "no debate flair", but the issues I mentioned were present on a meme-flair'ed post, and I don't think a post can have more than one flair, and speaking for myself I think it's annoying that vegans can't even post memes without these kinds of comments showing up.
On other vegan fora on the web, like reddit (I hate it but this was one thing I liked), there is a separate space for meat-eaters to challenge veganism and to promote their diet over ours, or to simply ask questions, and so on). I realize Ovarit is still a smallish site and that the veganism circle is a very small (for now) part of it, so a separate debate circle is not practical. But I do think there are other solutions that may work better.

As vegans, and especially as vegan women, we are used to having our choices and ideas belittled or dismissed, or to being talked over or even outright lied to. I've often seen vegan spaces online as a way to get away from the ubiquity of carnist rhetoric that we are surrounded by, as well as by outdated health information, if not purposely false info. It can be cathartic and freeing to be able to get away from all that and be with like-minded people, even if only online (a huge part of the appeal for Ovarit).

I am not proposing to ban people who eat meat or feminine protein products, but I do think that it should not be promoted in this circle anymore than use of pornography should be promoted anywhere on this site. I do not think mentioning consumption counts as promotion, but I do think that talking about veganism as being unhealthy and not suited to women is the sort of thing better discussed on it's own debate-specific post, not posts for vegan or vegan-aspiring women who just want to chill with other vegan feminists.

I would be in favour of having a 'no promoting carnism' (this includes consumption of feminine protein products) rule for o/vegan where the exception is debate/question posts and to maybe redirect users to create their own post with a debate flair (mentioned below) and link it to the user they disagree with. An alternative to the current 'no debate' flair would maybe be to change the rule to have a debate flair that invites debate rather than one flair that exempts a post from debate. I also would be in-favour of having maybe a weekly or monthly meta-post for questions and debate about veganism.

If anyone thinks this is unreasonable/too extreme, feel free to let me know. I still go to other vegan fora but I do notice that gender ideology occasionally leaks in and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth, plus some vegans sadly are misogynists, even though that's not very vegan of them.

In conclusion, I'm vegan btw.

I was browsing this circle and I noticed that there was a some anti-vegan sentiment as well as a lot of easily and already debunked anti-vegan rhetoric being repeated here, and that at least one user was trying to promote meat-eating (carnism) and even went so far as to say that women were not suited to veganism, which is false. I realize that there is a "no debate flair", but the issues I mentioned were present on a meme-flair'ed post, and I don't think a post can have more than one flair, and speaking for myself I think it's annoying that vegans can't even post memes without these kinds of comments showing up. On other vegan fora on the web, like reddit (I hate it but this was one thing I liked), there is a separate space for meat-eaters to challenge veganism and to promote their diet over ours, or to simply ask questions, and so on). I realize Ovarit is still a smallish site and that the veganism circle is a very small (for now) part of it, so a separate debate circle is not practical. But I do think there are other solutions that may work better. As vegans, and especially as vegan women, we are used to having our choices and ideas belittled or dismissed, or to being talked over or even outright lied to. I've often seen vegan spaces online as a way to get away from the ubiquity of carnist rhetoric that we are surrounded by, as well as by outdated health information, if not purposely false info. It can be cathartic and freeing to be able to get away from all that and be with like-minded people, even if only online (a huge part of the appeal for Ovarit). I am *not* proposing to ban people who eat meat or feminine protein products, but I do think that it should not be promoted in this circle anymore than use of pornography should be promoted anywhere on this site. I do not think mentioning consumption counts as promotion, but I do think that talking about veganism as being unhealthy and not suited to women is the sort of thing better discussed on it's own debate-specific post, not posts for vegan or vegan-aspiring women who just want to chill with other vegan feminists. I would be in favour of having a 'no promoting carnism' (this includes consumption of feminine protein products) rule for o/vegan where the exception is debate/question posts and to maybe redirect users to create their own post with a debate flair (mentioned below) and link it to the user they disagree with. An alternative to the current 'no debate' flair would maybe be to change the rule to have a debate flair that invites debate rather than one flair that exempts a post from debate. I also would be in-favour of having maybe a weekly or monthly meta-post for questions and debate about veganism. If anyone thinks this is unreasonable/too extreme, feel free to let me know. I still go to other vegan fora but I do notice that gender ideology occasionally leaks in and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth, plus some vegans sadly are misogynists, even though that's not very vegan of them. In conclusion, I'm vegan btw.

14 comments

[–] [Deleted] 11 points (+11|-0)

I know which comments you are talking about and I agree that they aren't appropriate for this sub.

Full disclosure that I am a vegetarian and not a vegan, but I treat this circle as being in a guest's home.

[–] InvisibleWoman 7 points (+9|-2)

I agree. I don't see the point of a vegan circle if carnists just attack our way of life in it and we can't even debate it.

The "no debate" flair would NOT be allowed to be used that way. We've never has any post use the flair at all, but if an omni tried to come in and use the "no debate" flair to bash veganism without repercussions they would be banned. We don't have a ton of rules, but one of them is that this circle is for vegans.

[–] steady_ember 4 points (+4|-0)

I never heard the term feminine protein products before. That’s a good one! It really drives home the underlying sex based nature of how we exploit females’ reproduction systems to get these food sources. I hope more human women will find solidarity with animal others and see common threads with dynamics of oppression and suffering that go along the lines of our reproductive status.

Thanks for making this post. I agree with what you’ve said here. Some people are always going to find a way to be rude about things. They saw something that put them on the defensive and they lashed out. We can choose to downvote or block, or call it out. We shouldn’t take it personally. It’s correct to call it out as rude and unhelpful behavior, but I hope you don’t let it get under your skin.

I like the idea of disallowing these kinds of comments from posts with “meme” flair for the reasons you gave. There could also be a flair that posters could opt into to denote a post as being an open forum for that sort of debate.

I never heard the term feminine protein products before. That’s a good one! It really drives home the underlying sex based nature of how we exploit females’ reproduction systems to get these food sources. I hope more human women will find solidarity with animal others and see common threads with dynamics of oppression and suffering that go along the lines of our reproductive status.

That is precisely why I use the term! I hope more people adopt it, I find "dairy", "eggs" and the like, while every deep down knows they must come from females, doesn't force us to confront the reality of it… that and, I'v meet many people who don't understand that cows have to be pregnant to produce milk, or that cow's milk is breast milk, and so on…

Yeah, I really hope this circle can adopt a system where there's specific posts for debate , or even a weekly meta post for debate and questions (there are always people with questions about veganism, anyway, so a weekly post would be useful, I think). :)

[–] MadameOvary 3 points (+3|-0)

Yeah maybe there needs to be some kind of boundaries drawn, although the idea of limiting free speech in this way doesn't sit entirely right with me. But I'm sure we've all noticed posts in this circle get systematically downvoted regardless of what they are about. This person is quite probably hostile because they are having to work increasingly hard to maintain their cognitive dissonance - they already know the way we treat animals and the natural world is a feature of patriarchy and built on the exploitation of the female on a massive scale.

I totally get wanting a carnism-free space, though.

Yeah, totally, I don't want to limit free speech at all, I just on't want discussions to be constantly redirected into defending veganism. That's why I'm in favour of specific posts or specific meta-posts on certain days that would invite debate and discussion, while the rest of the time it would be understood that this is pro-vegan space and we should have to defend that anymore than we should have defend our need for a feminist space. I like what Ethology said about being a guest in someone's house… one wouldn't expect a house guest to belittle the hosts' thoughts and ideas, and I don't think that expectation is a limit of "free speech".
Thank you for your support!

Btw I agree completely about the way animals are treated being a by-product of patriarchy/kyriarchy, I wish more people didn't just dismiss these ideas.

Thank you for posting this and prompting a great discussion!

The "no debate" flair was a compromise we came up with to accommodate as many users as possible: vegans who want a comfy home to talk about our lifestyle as well as those curious about veganism who might come to the circle seeking advice and maybe even wanting to debate (that is a path that some people take to get to veganism - it was for me). I think the option of a "no debate" flair rather than a "open to debate" flair was to err on the side of "less is more" moderation. However, all three of us mods for this circle are new to modding (on Ovarit, anyway) and we are just trying things out. If there is a better way to tag posts or a way to make the community more suited to those who hang out here, then we absolutely want to do that!

I like your suggestions and I'll bring them up to the other mods.

[–] GCRadFem -3 points (+1|-4)

I totally understand what you are saying. I am not vegan but I follow a keto diet.

The number of people trying to educate me since I first began, about how bad it is, when the science, my doctors and my lab work support the benefit for me, gets really old.

I am not promoting my way of eating for anyone. We shouldn’t have to defend any of our own personal, ethical choices.