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In response to feedback from users of the circle, we have decided to adopt a low-to-zero tolerance policy for carnist excuses and derailment. We've heard you all that you want a fully vegan space where you don't have to deal with that stuff.

In an effort to engage both vegans and non-vegans, and to provide education to dispel common anti-vegan rhetoric, we've decided to have a weekly Debate Thread.

This week we've decided to talk about so called "ethical meat." This is one of the most common non-vegan arguments I hear: that somewhere-over-the-rainbow exists your second uncle's magical "humane" farm where animals totally live out their full lives, without their babies being taken away, and they're slaughtered nice and kindly with a boop on the nose.

Conveniently, no one can answer logistical questions about how these nice lil old mcdonald farms can exist, while also meeting the massive demand for cheap meat. No one can tell me how these "humane farmers" will get milk from cows without removing the calves from the mother. No one can tell me why its morally justifiable when we don't need to eat meat.

*In response to feedback from users of the circle, we have decided to adopt a low-to-zero tolerance policy for carnist excuses and derailment. We've heard you all that you want a fully vegan space where you don't have to deal with that stuff.* *In an effort to engage both vegans and non-vegans, and to provide education to dispel common anti-vegan rhetoric, we've decided to have a weekly Debate Thread.* This week we've decided to talk about so called "ethical meat." This is one of the most common non-vegan arguments I hear: that somewhere-over-the-rainbow exists your second uncle's magical "humane" farm where animals totally live out their full lives, without their babies being taken away, and they're slaughtered nice and kindly with a boop on the nose. Conveniently, no one can answer logistical questions about how these nice lil old mcdonald farms can exist, while also meeting the massive demand for cheap meat. No one can tell me how these "humane farmers" will get milk from cows without removing the calves from the mother. No one can tell me why its morally justifiable when we don't need to eat meat.

8 comments

[–] VeggieAnnie 3 points (+3|-0)

FWIW, when I was not vegan or vegetarian I ate dog meat. And now I explain to people that there is no difference between a dog and a pig: when I was eating pig, I was also open to dog. Then, when I learned how animals are treated on farms and in slaughterhouses, I could not eat either. But on either side of the equation, species-ism is just illogical. As you say, requires mental gymnastics. It is frustrating to see people upset about dog farms but not pig farms.

[–] SulphuricMirror 0 points (+0|-0)

Yes, what you're saying and you're experience demonstrates what I was saying perfectly. I've met people who have eaten dog meat, and some people have told me knowing I was vegan thinking they would get a rise out of me especially for that, but they don't. Because I don't see dogs as different to cows or pigs. Pigs are more intelligent, even (some people say dogs shouldn't be eaten because they're smart but they're not that smart, really).

Anyway, it's awesome that you went vegan! I can't say I ever ate dog meat but that's because I live in a place where that would be very unusual (culturally, and again hypocrites who eat pigs would condemn that), I did, before the age of ten, eat cows and pigs and chickens and whatever goes into fish sticks, usual stuff for North Americans. If I grew up elsewhere I'd have eaten different animals, but just the same I'd like to think I'd realize it's wrong and stop. :)

[–] VeggieAnnie 2 points (+2|-0)

Speaking of dogs and the argument "they're smart." Once I read (I think from Frans De Waal on facebook) that if you ask laymen to rank "smart" dog breeds and you ask scientists to rank dog breeds by intelligence, you will get totally different lists. That is because laymen consider an animal smart if it is trainable--it will do what you say--like a sheepdog. But scientific intelligence tests show that willful breeds, like pitbulls, are smarter. They are smart enough to make their own choices. So what people think of as "smart" is really just "obedient to humans." Isn't that interesting?

[–] SulphuricMirror 0 points (+0|-0)

Super interesting. I love Frans de Waals's work, I've seen his lectures on youtube about animals intelligence (and emotional/compassion capacity), they are fascinating.