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Some of you read my post yesterday, that I was going to bring up the trans issues to my husband and tell him my opinions. A lot of you offered such great advice and support, thank you! Well, I did it...

It didn't go so great. I couldn't stay calm. I was so nervous when I started and he wasn't saying anything back, so I just kept going...and rambling...and ranting. Four months' worth of thoughts and new ideas just came spilling out. He was overwhelmed.

Then, because I got into the groove of this sort of tirade, he said my tone turned him off from wanting to discuss it. He said it was like being lectured at.

He did agree men and boys should not be allowed in women and girls' sports. He was surprised to learn men could identify into women's prisons in California, and he didn't like that idea. So I think he does agree with me about safeguarding issues.

However, the whole conversation was just...bad. It was just a bad time in my marriage. I told him I regret telling him. He said it was good because "he wants to know my opinions" and "it's ok to agree to disagree." But I told him, to me, it's not comfortable to "agree to disagree" because that means I am the one without an ally. He has all the friends, colleagues, mainstream liberal social media that agrees with him, and I still have no one. So why even tell him and put this disagreement in our marriage?

I wish I had told a woman first.

I feel discouraged. I feel "exposed." It would be better if I hadn't said anything. Actually, it would be best if I had never investigated these issues myself, if I had remained an oblivious by-stander like the rest of my friends and family.

ETA: Update! Yesterday I emailed my husband two articles, one scholarly (law journal) and one popular (a Medium essay). I said he could read them or not read them, I'm not giving homework. I said if he did read them he could talk to me or not talk to me about it, but I wouldn't be the one bringing them up. Today I see that he emailed me back and said he would read the articles. So he's open to learning! :)

Some of you read my post yesterday, that I was going to bring up the trans issues to my husband and tell him my opinions. A lot of you offered such great advice and support, thank you! Well, I did it... It didn't go so great. I couldn't stay calm. I was so nervous when I started and he wasn't saying anything back, so I just kept going...and rambling...and ranting. Four months' worth of thoughts and new ideas just came spilling out. He was overwhelmed. Then, because I got into the groove of this sort of tirade, he said my tone turned him off from wanting to discuss it. He said it was like being lectured at. He did agree men and boys should not be allowed in women and girls' sports. He was surprised to learn men could identify into women's prisons in California, and he didn't like that idea. So I think he does agree with me about safeguarding issues. However, the whole conversation was just...bad. It was just a bad time in my marriage. I told him I regret telling him. He said it was good because "he wants to know my opinions" and "it's ok to agree to disagree." But I told him, to me, it's not comfortable to "agree to disagree" because that means I am the one without an ally. He has all the friends, colleagues, mainstream liberal social media that agrees with him, and I still have no one. So why even tell him and put this disagreement in our marriage? I wish I had told a woman first. I feel discouraged. I feel "exposed." It would be better if I hadn't said anything. Actually, it would be best if I had never investigated these issues myself, if I had remained an oblivious by-stander like the rest of my friends and family. ETA: Update! Yesterday I emailed my husband two articles, one scholarly (law journal) and one popular (a Medium essay). I said he could read them or not read them, I'm not giving homework. I said if he did read them he could talk to me or not talk to me about it, but I wouldn't be the one bringing them up. Today I see that he emailed me back and said he would read the articles. So he's open to learning! :)

82 comments

[–] Tez_Morena 39 points (+39|-0) Edited

So why even tell him and put this disagreement in our marriage? >

Why tell your husband what you believe? Because your partner should be the one person you should be able to be yourself with. Please don't let this hiccup mess up your confidence. I read your post from before and it does sound a bit like you are not entirely sure that you have a right to disagree with the mainstream view, or that it might be too much trouble. Your marriage should be strong enough to withstand this sort of arguments, because it is not uncommon. If you think about it, we don't marry a carbon copy clone of ourselves, we marry a person with their own mind, their own views, their own experience. Men have trouble relating to women's issues because they do not have that experience nor have they seen it in a loved one. That doesn't make your views invalid or wrong. The fact that you agreed in some points hints that there is hope.

[–] VeggieAnnie [OP] 13 points (+13|-0)

I would say that I DO trust that my own conclusions are right; I do NOT trust that other people will understand them. Therefore, it does feel like too much trouble to disagree with the mainstream left. Also, I don't know that I think my husband needs to know everything about me/what I think.

[–] TheRoyalJesterf 35 points (+36|-1) Edited

I am so sorry to hear this. This is why it is so hard for women to be feminist. The majority of people are heterosexual, meaning the majority of women end up cohabiting with their oppressor. And this is the kind of shit that can happen as a result. We have to "agree to disagree" on their views of OUR oppression. Fuck that!

I find it very disturbing he accused you of "lecturing" him. From your description, it sounds more like you were talking due to nervousness over his silence. He was the one using an intimidation tactic on YOU, and yet he accuses you of wrongdoing. Typical male bullshit, if you ask me. Men have been calling women "nags" and accusing them of "lecturing" since the dawn of time. He sounds like a textbook liberal "brogressive": progressive about EVERYTHING except a woman daring to have an opinion contrary to his own.

The one positive I see in this is that he was uncomfortable with the prison thing. That tells me that, like most "good lefties," he doesn't know shit about how far trans activism has gone. It sounds like he hasn't even scratched the surface of what's happening right now. I'd be curious how he'd react to what TIMs did to Vancouver Rape Relief, for example. And what he'd think of Karen White, Jonathan Yaniv, and the GameStop Ma'am? He probably can't name a TIM other than Caitlyn Jenner and Laverne Cox.

Most importantly: are you ok? You don't think you'd be in any danger or anything if, after cooling off, he goes full TRA on you, do you?

[–] mycelium 26 points (+27|-1)

The whole part about tone and lecturing sounds like he's annoyed because he knows she's right, so he's resorting to the classic male defense mechanism of refusing to engage in the discussion to avoid acknowledging a woman's intelligence. OP, it genuinely sounds like your husband is already aware of his cognitive dissonance, but is too intimidated by logical arguments to actually have a meaningful discussion with you. It's harder for liberal men to get over this hurdle than liberal women, because men just don't have any skin in the game. They will happily cling onto mainstream misogyny because they can't empathize with women's struggle enough to risk their own hide. I hope you don't mind me saying this, but from this post and your last post, it sounds like your husband has a habit of belittling your ideas and making you doubt your own intelligence. I hope this doesn't turn you off of radical feminism, but I understand that interpersonal relationships are important. If you have any women in your life who hasn't gone full TRA yet, it might be beneficial to test the waters with some GC ideas and see how they take it, just so you have a support circle too.

[–] VeggieAnnie [OP] 14 points (+14|-0)

There is a female friend that I think will be very open to listening to me, and I regret that I didn't talk to her first. She and her husband are more "Joe Rogan" types--responsive to these ideas because they are common sense, not because they are feminist.

In the husband's defense, he didn't know about any of this stuff, but I've been thinking about it for 4 - 5 months. It is unfair for me to expect him to say, "oh, ok, you're right!" after only a half hour explanation. I had months to think and change my mind. I didn't give him any time.

[–] endthewoo 2 points (+2|-0)

Yes, but he's being a dick. He could have recognised that you might know what you're talking about, and that it was worth finding out more. He could have said "this is important to you, but it's a lot to take in, give me a bit of time". Maybe if he says anything else you could just say that " this is important and I know what I'm talking about" and then walk away from the conversation until he comes back with a better attitude.

[–] VeggieAnnie [OP] 15 points (+15|-0)

I'm totally safe. He's not at all violent or confrontational. That may be a big part of why he was turned off by my bringing it all up: he may feel that I was trying to force him to join an already-in-progress argument (between feminists and TRAs, not between me and him). He doesn't like conflict. Maybe he felt I was forcing him to "PICK A SIDE RIGHT NOW!" That could be what he heard.

It is hard being married to a man. Talk about sleeping with the enemy, hahaha.

[–] TheRoyalJesterf 6 points (+6|-0)

Great! I didn't mean to imply your husband was violent, by "danger" I also meant financial/social/emotional safety. I could have used a softer word. :) Either way, I'm glad you're safe.

If he's the type to avoid conflict, it may be the case that he knows you're right, but he can't handle having an opinion contrary to the mainstream, since doing so would inevitably lead to conflict.

For what it's worth, I also hate conflict, so I'm only out to a small handful of people. He may eventually come around, too, at least in private.

[–] hellamomzilla 22 points (+22|-0)

It is very uncomfortable and upsetting to discover that someone you are very close to and love has never even thought about something that you have taken a deep dive into and see incredibly clearly and feel is so important. You want to hand them the entire pie and instead, as you said, in attempting to do that, you just end up sounding slightly unhinged. Hello, I think so many of us have been there.

Through various threads, I think some women here have given real thought to beginning topics and kind of a way to lay out the various issues in such a way that you can bring the person you're talking to along, rather than convert them all in a single conversation. But, when you feel like you've actually seen behind the curtain, it can be so, so difficult to be patient and also be comfortable with some unsettled questions. Believe me -- I've been through this with a teenager and I spent far too much time attempting to be reasonable and clear in speaking with professionals and family and educators -- all while I was essentially being abused by my kid, so I wasn't really functionally equipped to be the lone voice of reason, but I had no choice. I made LOTS of mistakes.

This is not a single battle -- you aren't just getting a single chance. You mention that you've investigated this issue yourself. Which is great and you should give your husband time and space (and continue talking about it, although not only about this) so that he can have that process, too. In fact, it sounds like he is not shutting you down, but explaining that he is not where you are. But he sees the problem with allowing men in women's prisons. That's a single topic that you can mine as a stand-in for the major problems with self-ID and the dangers for women. Not in a "let me core dump everything I know on you" way. But maybe one tiny piece of the puzzle. I believe you said he's a philosopher? He likely approaches things in a bit-by-bit manner, attempting to build a cohesive view of a topic, if that's his mindset.

So, look at this as a process. In fact, I'd plan out topics and single bits of that topic. For instance, since he seemed responsive to the prison issue, chunk that up. It will take time -- it took YOU time. Most people who change their minds around these issues didn't just have one discussion or read a single article and immediately switched sides. Don't feel like you have to get him completely up to speed and ready to defend a dissertation on being gender critical.

And, what with him apparently being an intelligent person, if he is open to your opinions and is fairly reasonable, there will likely come a point where he can't deny sex and will start to see how shaky the foundations of gender are. And it could go much faster. Prisons are a good in. Sports are good -- and both those topics deal with the physical reality of human bodies. I'd bury the lede a bit -- but eventually, make sure you've got the information that none of this stuff requires removal of male genitalia and the reality that most men who identify this way are simply dressing up and are fully intact, with the ability to rape. A wolf in sheep's clothing, as it were.

I'm sorry it didn't go as well as you'd hoped.

[–] TheRoyalJesterf 23 points (+23|-0)

You want to hand them the entire pie and instead, as you said, in attempting to do that, you just end up sounding slightly unhinged.

The most frustrating thing about this is that this is one of those things that only seems to apply to women. If a man is arguing and comes out the gate with a hundred sources, it gives him credibility and people see it as evidence he knows what he's talking about.

When women do the exact same thing, people see them as "obsessive" and "unhinged". It's ridiculous.

So I agree with you that if OP wants to keep at this, to try to give it to him in small doses instead, and stick to topics he seems to be having doubts on.

[–] VeggieAnnie [OP] 13 points (+13|-0)

Good point. I would see this happen in graduate seminars: the men were "well read" and the women were "going off on a rant." But I think I DID go off on a rant, haha. Because I was so nervous.

[–] sensusquaeram 12 points (+12|-0)

^ All of what these ladies said x 10.

Many of us go through this -- we've thought it through deeply, we've held our tongue for months (even years), and all of that rage and frustration comes tumbling out in our "introductory paragraph" and we walk away thinking "Oh hell, I blew it."

But you haven't blown it. And that afterburn of shame -- do your best to let that go. Think of it rather as post-exertion soreness of a new muscle you're learning to use.

[–] VeggieAnnie [OP] 11 points (+11|-0)

Thank you. Everything you intuited about the conversation is correct, I think. And all of your advice is good. I'm still uncomfortable and upset, but...that's life.

[–] MadSea 20 points (+20|-0) Edited

It took a little while for my husband to get it too. It’s hard to undo brainwashing.

Next step, show him the subs. Show him the photos they post themselves. When he says, “it’s just a few” keep showing him how many there are (I have so many screen shots of pervert AGP males being perverts).

Show him the story of the one that steals used tampons and shoved them up his ass.

Show him the video of the TRA attacking that lady in the UK and smashing her camera.

Show him the documentary on YouTube, I think it’s called Gender Ideology. https://youtu.be/9Zkc4P0rpI4

If it gives you any hope, after way too much time of me being “too intense” and my husband being unable to hear me, he still absorbed a lot that I threw at him. Then he saw me come out online, and I told him, “Watch how all these people who have known me for years react to my perfectly logical stances (prisons/sports).” Sure enough, when I got mobbed and canceled, he was like, “holy shit...”

Anyways, now he catches social media bans all the time arguing for women’s rights with me. He knows most of the talking points. He protects me from the mobs at protests (the WoLF talk at the Seattle library last year, that really peaked him).

It takes time. He has to totally shift his entire world view. It’s not an easy thing to do, but it’s possible. It’s not guaranteed, but it’s possible.

Maybe show him LGB drop the T too.

[–] How 20 points (+20|-0)

I'm so sorry that he doesn't get it. People really don't like this. In 10 years everyone is going to be standing around stunned saying "nobody could have known that men would take advantage of this". "It was impossible to predict". This is a thing you can't unsee but you can refuse to see for a very long time

[–] TheRoyalJesterf 21 points (+21|-0)

In 10 years everyone is going to be standing around stunned saying "nobody could have known that men would take advantage of this".

Exactly. And I bet OP's husband is going to be one of the ones standing around slack-jawed asking "why did everyone go along with this?" and crediting some male philosopher for blowing the whistle on it.

[–] VeggieAnnie [OP] 16 points (+16|-0)

I did try to point out that where he thinks we are as a society (Be nice and let men get sex change operations) is NOT where we are--we are way further down the road toward self-ID (California women's prisons). He thought I was begrudging them an inch, when actually they've already taken a mile. I THINK he got that point. He was very surprised to learn about the CA prison law and House of Reps removing all sex-based language. I think people are just oblivious to how much policy has changed in the last 5 - 10 years.

[–] endthewoo 2 points (+2|-0)

He thought I was begrudging them an inch,

Ah, the horror of his fellow men being "begrudged" whatever they demand from their servants.

[–] Asha95 16 points (+17|-1)

I’m so sorry. That sounds hard. Maybe give him some time to process it. A lot of us starting having seeds of doubt ages before we actually peaked. It may take a while for him to mull it over and understand your point of view. It sounds like there’s already some aspects of TRA-ism he disagrees with, so there’s a start.

[–] tervacious 15 points (+15|-0) Edited

Let it settle in. People have been brainwashed for 10yrs and had to work to get that point of view. When Jenner first started looking...not himself, the collective reaction was not initially "how stunning and brave!" It took a while. The media, social media, academia etc had to work on us for a bit to make us suppress our collective WTF instincts. For years were/are encouraged and then forced to think that trans=transsexual, extra gay effeminate men who are uniquely vulnerable and 100% non-threatening to women because they are women. The media since mid-2010s will not let you make the connection between Jenner and AGP/transvestitism/cross dressing straight dudes who are living out a fetish. Google won't let it, YouTube removes that content, all the other stuff gets banned. You are awakening a part of his brain that he's worked to suppress. Give it time. It's taken women longer to peak when confronted with this stuff.

I know, I didn't give him any time. Thank you for your support.

[–] scriptcrone 2 points (+2|-0)

I agree. You've poured the boiling water over the tea leaves, now let them steep. He'll now start to notice things, like it or not. And I bet at some point there'll be an incident--like someone dissing JKR, and you'll hear him say, "She's not wrong."--and you'll realize it's sunk in.

actually, the only really reprehensible thing he said related to JKR. He said, "well if some people are tweeting inflammatory tweets, like JKR, that backlash is on them." That was the only part where I got really mad. I said, "what tweets incite violence? show me the inflammatory tweets!" and he was like, "I'll find tweets!" That was the lowest part of the conversation.

[–] lucrecia 12 points (+13|-1)

That sucks. Give it a while. And fwiw, I'd say don't read too much into it in terms of how much he cares about you; imagine the positions were reversed; if your husband came to you with a new political perspective, would you instantly agree?

I know some of the frustration, though. One man I told was pretty unfussed (he cared that I cared but didn't really get why it mattered so much) until he saw the TRA reaction to Cyberpunk 2077, of all things. Then suddenly he was all wide-eyed 'But these people are crazy!!!' I was there like '... yes, I did say.' So maybe he won't appreciate the madness 'til it hits a hobby he cares about and he sees it firsthand.

I don't feel less loved. I feel...I don't know how to put it, but somehow "I still care about you, let's agree to disagree" bothers me. Like the caring is supposed to gloss over the fact that he thinks I'm wrong. Maybe I shouldn't care. How much can we expect from the people we love--that they always agree with us? That's unrealistic and unfair.

[–] lucrecia 10 points (+10|-0)

Yeah, I'd find it patronising if someone close took the 'agree to disagree' line with me after we'd spent a while on it if they weren't offering any arguments, because then it would feel like 'I value my feelings more than your informed and reasoned arguments' and it would kind of imply that they thought my months of research were worthless and they didn't trust me to come to sensible conclusions. But as you say, it's been one conversation, and probably quite unexpected from his pov.

[–] kit 8 points (+8|-0)

He's not 'agreeing to disagree', because he hasn't put forth any opinion to counter yours. So what he's trying to get you to agree with is being quiet and sweeping YOUR opinion under the rug so he doesn't have to formulate his own. He's silencing you about a topic you clearly care about because it affects you - it's not unrealistic and unfair to be bothered by this.

[–] Verdandi 2 points (+2|-0) Edited

You feel upset because it's a polite way to say "shut up". He simply didn't want to hear it.

[–] shewolfoffrance 6 points (+6|-0)

A video game. It took a video game for him care.

[–] TheRoyalJesterf 4 points (+4|-0)

Men: Ehhh, some crossdressers rape women in prison... it happens. BUT NOW THEY'RE COMING FOR MY VIDEO GAMES...!?!?

[–] lucrecia 4 points (+4|-0)

Well, he cared before that and was like 'what can I do to help?', but I don't think it seemed immediate to him until he saw that, and I think he thought it was mostly a minority of loud extremists causing trouble. So it took seeing something he'd experienced first hand vs their coverage to realise just how off the wall their coverage was, and how it was everywhere.

[–] Womancup 2 points (+2|-0)

What was the TRA reaction to Cyberpunk?

[–] lucrecia 4 points (+4|-0)

Ah so they were suuuuuuper positive before the game came out, despite not having played it (obviously). They praised it because you could mix and match bodies with genitals, and there was some trans representation planned. Then the winds changed (not sure if there had just been too much positivity for too long and someone decided it was time for an edgy Hot Take and then they all tried to outdo each other, or if they'd heard it was buggy and wanted to distance themselves), but it was decided it was deeply transphobic. Every decision they'd previously praised was now Problematic and Fetishising. They threw a fit because character pronouns were tied in with voice-pitch. They were furious that the character could only be a 'he' or 'she', and even more furious that a 'he' couldn't date an in-game lesbian (some fan later made a mod so they could). They decided an in-game poster mocked gender dysphoria (iirc a drink ad picture of a woman with a dick saying 'mix it up!'). They were enraged that there weren't long, long storylines all about being trans. For whatever reason, they decided the game was the devil itself and they needed to hate with all the force they could muster. Meanwhile the representation was pretty positive and tried to treat it as an everyday thing without being patronising; a very feminine character casually mentioned having transitioned and I think there was even a little trans flag on their car. So my friend was like 'there's a scene where you literally crucify a man, super violent and nasty out of nowhere, made me wtf, and this is what they found outrageous???' So just one of those 'yeah, wasn't exaggerating, their priorities are nuts and once this mob hates you it hates you lol' things.

[–] girl_undone 8 points (+8|-0)

I can't imagine shutting someone I loved down about something they really cared about and felt vulnerable sharing because I didn't like their presentation.

[–] Verdandi 2 points (+2|-0)

It wasn't her tone that was the issue, it was her words. "Agree to disagree" is a polite way of saying "shut up".

[–] GenderHeretic 7 points (+7|-0)

I'm so sorry. I promise that he fucking knows that they're men. This is ultimate mansplaining, him acting like he knows better about YOUR oppression.

He definitely was surprised to learn that 75% of TIM's keep their penis. I think NOW he realizes they are men. Men just don't even know the bare minimum facts (like this fact) but they form an opinion. It's annoying.

[–] kit 8 points (+8|-0)

75% of TIM's keep their penis

I can't find the study with a quick search, but I've read from comments on it that the number is thought to be 95-96%, and the majority don't even take hormones. If anyone knows the study I'm talking about, that would be very helpful to save for future discussions.

[–] Verdandi 2 points (+2|-0)

I don't have any links but I wanted to reassure you that study definitely exists and I've also read it, and I'd also like links if someone finds it!

[–] endthewoo 1 points (+1|-0) Edited

The old figure, a survey/estimate from 2011, was that 80% of men do not have any surgery. However, of those, some only have implants, or just removal of testicles. That leaves over 80% still with dicks, and that was 10 years ago, with far fewer men calling themselves trans. Many, many more now who either just claim the identity and do nothing, or some that only take hormones. We can guess the percentage who keep their tackle is way higher (95% doesn't seem too far off)

Original stats referenced here:

https://fairplayforwomen.com/penis/

[–] GenderHeretic 7 points (+7|-0) Edited

I'm including full medical transition and "passing" when I say that he (and everyone) knows that TIMs are men. People understand that a TIM's plastic surgery only creates a facsimile of female anatomy, not that they literally became a woman. In fact, it's the commitment to supporting TIMs over women that gives it away; no one would ever do that if they believed they were women. If they did, they'd just ignore TIMs like they ignore us.

[–] BristlingBo 7 points (+7|-0)

This exact thing surprised my husband as well. He just kept saying "what are we talking about? People who have had a sex change?" and I kept telling him that the vast majority of TW do not have that surgery and are fully intact males (not that I think they would not be male if they had had the surgery but you know what I mean), and he just could not get over that fact. He genuinely thought that they could only be called transwomen after all the surgery was done and had no idea what this whole "identifying as" thing was. To be honest I still think that is something he finds very hard to square away even though he's seen the proof.

Yes. This kind of thinking is why I said to my husband, "where you think we are as a society is where we were 30 years ago. We're waaaaay further along now. We're way down the road to self-ID." Men have no idea what's going on.

[–] Womancup 2 points (+2|-0)

Did you ask him if he'd date one?

No, the context for that strategy never came up. He felt that most trans women "know they're not women" but want to present as women. He seems to have a combination belief that they know they are not women, but also they have their penises removed. Therefore, they are not a threat ideologically or physically.

[–] Zuritza 6 points (+6|-0) Edited

I’m so sorry. To be honest I’m concerned about his judgements critique of you and how nervous you were to tell him. For many of us the gender critical viewpoint is not a philosophical debate. It cuts deep into the bone and it’s painful. He should have seen you were dealing with a topic that is very painful and told you it’s ok, just let it all out and I’ll be here to pick up the pieces with you.

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