14

From this comment here that I wrote:

https://www.ovarit.com/o/Radfemmery/38687/like-any-other-job/86f116bd-1a69-4d6f-95de-7c1b5a3ebb24

I had to make an OP about this.

So to copy what I felt was the best part:

Women's orgasms matter. Women deserve orgasms!! The giving of money IS NOT ENOUGH and will NEVER BE ENOUGH to justify taking away women's pleasure! Of erasing her needs for intimacy and joy in sex and in fact damaging her potential for enjoying sex!

All women's pleasure should be cherished. All of it. Sex work inherently justifies erasing women's pleasure and in fact, creating harm (labor) in sex instead.

All of this is all tied to the MYTH that women and girls are not fully human like men are, thus our pleasure doesn't matter and doesn't deserve to be protected and cherished. That its not natural for us to desire sex. And if we demand more than just a penis in a hole, we are sick, hysterical, needy, clinging and unreasonable. Nope.

No little girl ever grows up imagining being a prostitute. Even if she has practically no idea of what sex is, she would never imagine intimacy with a lover (romantic or otherwise) something she wants to be commodified. When we all were little girls having our first ideas of love, none of us imagined being forced to love someone for money. NONE OF US.

So when a grown man says he supports sex workers "choosing" to be sex workers, he supports the crushed dreams of broken girls for his pleasure alone. He supports the continuation of those crushed dreams existing in adult bodies, for his pleasure alone.

Supporting sex work means we women don't have the same need for release and joy and love in sex. And that in fact our sexual and relasionship needs are really not something anyone has to take account of, or care about, or protect.

This means our sexual pleasure is not only not important for us, but it's not important for the health of families and society. And this includes the women who men cheat on with sex workers.

This a major cornerstone of patriarchy if not THE cornerstone, That women exist for men to take their pleasure from however men dicatte, and nothing else! Our desires, dreams, wants, needs, sensitivities, sexual identities and ability to have joy in our bodies are not worth being cherished on their own!!

In fact it's natural to turn our sex acts and sexual identities into a commodity for men's pleasure instead!

So to reiterate.

For sex work as we know it to be considered acceptable for men in society, there has to be a prevailing belief that women do not desire, need or benefit from pleasure in sex the way men do, and that turning sex into a job doesn't inherently mean pain for women. That its okay to damage our dreams, our romance, our joy in our bodies, and our sexual selves, in order for men to get orgasms. That its okay to in fact, damage our bodies (through plastic surgery, dangerous sex acts, high std and pregnancy risk etc.) for mens sexual pleasure.

In order for this view to exist, you have to inherently dehumanize women. Period. End.

You have to believe we are less fragile and less sensitive about sex and intimacy than men. That we are less of a human being than men are!

In fact when the truth is we may be the opposite!!

That is, you have to believe that we can just "take" all the objectification of us, and the penetration of us, like it were a job equal to "flipping burgers."

You have to believe it is a fair exchange to give us money in exchange for our sexual needs not being met, our sexual identities being surrendered to those who can buy us, our pleasure in sex in our bodies being removed, and our sexual psychology being absolutely devalued and exploited.

And, even if you, as a man will object and say "I want women to have pleasure in sex." This is a lie and I am tired of being lied to!!

If you allow or are okay with one woman to be coerced to have sex with someone for money, you are harming all women. You are dehumanizing all women.

You are saying its alright not to cherish the sexual identities and health of women and girls as long as some man somewhere can get off without any effort.

For sex work to be considered a valuable contribution to society, we have to devalue the orgasms of women, while over-valuing the orgasms of men.

We have to believe that it is a part of normal healthy relasionships and development (psychological development, sense of self, connection to others etc) for your sex to be something that is a purchased object for another person to use for their own pleasure while you are not enjoying yourself!! That is normal for your sex to have been twisted into a toil, a struggle, a job.

Sex should always be inherently about pleasure!

(And this is made worse by the fact that all sex workers all trend young, so so many girls who have brains that are not completely grown are being absolutely mentally screwed out of a healthy mind-body connection, and healthy sexual identity, by being sex workers.)

Since women naturally suffer to give birth, our sexual pleasure should be the priority in our society! Men should strive to give us as much pleasure as possible to make up for this!

All of this came up after I dealt with a couple of ugly boomer scrotes (of they were balding, wrinkly fat dudes) on IG arguing with me about sex work being okay as long as a woman "consents" to it.

They used the common arguments that even if you acknowledge ecnomoic coersion it's not really rape because it's still "consent to a job just like any job, and therefore if you think this, then all jobs are abuse."

Ofc this made my head explode as a former sex worker.

This idea that "its still consent to a job just like any job" is part of patriarchy.

Sex is special okay? There. I said it. Human beings are sexual beings and to make sex "a job" is fundamentally inhumane!

It denies how important it is for our psychology, identity, sense of health, belonging and welfare for us to find pleasure in sex.

Men are so self absorbed and stupid they legitimately think they would love sex work, while never actually doing or daring to do sex work themselves.

They never are willing to give up their sexual pleasure like women are expected to, for them.

They are just that stupid they think somehow that they would be able to enjoy having to fuck ugly people every day. Like they would be able to orgasm the same (even if they do), day after day. Even if you could orgasm some of the time, over time you would become fucked up mentally. It's just guaranteed.

Patriarchy inherently think that women's sex is something that is naturally "a labor." They think it's normal for a woman to "work" for men even in the most intimate of ways. To give up everything about herself, even to the most personal level. That our bodies are never personal and private. That our bodies are something any man can make public property if he wants to.

For our most intimate and precious parts of ourselves as human beings (the gift of reproduction) to be stripped into nothing but a thing to buy, is to be removed from all the best parts of relasionships and self-knowing, and especially from self-knowing. Because sex is a major part of self-knowing. Like masturbation. But men want to own that too. They want to own and occupy the self-knowing of women to the point we don't own it ourselves anymore. They want us to surrender it all to men, just so they can bust a nut.

Guys like this think its the natural state for women's orgasms to be faked for their benefit.

Guys like this think women just aren't sexual beings like they are....aka...women are not human like they are. Guys like this want to believe if they were a girl they'd dream of being a prostitute. They don't believe that girls are just like boys - that we don't dream of our futures like this. Ever. No girl or boy dreams of being a prostitute.

So men who think sex work is "just a job like any job" think removing pleasure from sex is no more of a "crushed dream" than having to flip burgers when you wanted to be an astronaut.

This is a lie.

This was kind of long, and I may have been redundant so I might edit this later. But I hope this contributes to people's understanding about how sex work is always bad, its a cornerstone of patriarchy, and it is always rape.

Personal sexual pleasure should ALWAYS be the priority in sex. Nobody willingly consents to have their sexual pleasure removed and turned into a struggle. Nobody mentally healthy consents for sex to become a dead experience for someone elses consumption.

Men will never willingly chose to be sex workers en masse, they will always prefer to be the buyers. Sex work is about sexism and dehumanization of women. Period end.

From this comment here that I wrote: https://www.ovarit.com/o/Radfemmery/38687/like-any-other-job/86f116bd-1a69-4d6f-95de-7c1b5a3ebb24 I had to make an OP about this. So to copy what I felt was the best part: >Women's orgasms matter. Women deserve orgasms!! The giving of money IS NOT ENOUGH and will NEVER BE ENOUGH to justify taking away women's pleasure! Of erasing her needs for intimacy and joy in sex and in fact damaging her potential for enjoying sex! All women's pleasure should be cherished. All of it. Sex work inherently justifies erasing women's pleasure and in fact, creating harm (labor) in sex instead. All of this is all tied to the MYTH that women and girls are not fully human like men are, thus our pleasure doesn't matter and doesn't deserve to be protected and cherished. That its not natural for us to desire sex. And if we demand more than just a penis in a hole, we are sick, hysterical, needy, clinging and unreasonable. Nope. **No little girl ever grows up imagining being a prostitute. Even if she has practically no idea of what sex is, she would never imagine intimacy with a lover (romantic or otherwise) something she wants to be commodified. When we all were little girls having our first ideas of love, none of us imagined being forced to love someone for money. NONE OF US.** So when a grown man says he supports sex workers "choosing" to be sex workers, he supports the crushed dreams of broken girls for his pleasure alone. He supports the continuation of those crushed dreams existing in adult bodies, for his pleasure alone. Supporting sex work means we women don't have the same need for release and joy and love in sex. And that in fact our sexual and relasionship needs are really not something anyone has to take account of, or care about, or protect. This means our sexual pleasure is not only not important for us, but it's not important for the health of families and society. And this includes the women who men cheat on with sex workers. This a major cornerstone of patriarchy if not THE cornerstone, That women exist for men to take their pleasure from however men dicatte, and nothing else! Our desires, dreams, wants, needs, sensitivities, sexual identities and ability to have joy in our bodies are not worth being cherished on their own!! In fact it's natural to turn our sex acts and sexual identities into a commodity for men's pleasure instead! So to reiterate. For sex work as we know it to be considered acceptable for men in society, there has to be a prevailing belief that women do not desire, need or benefit from pleasure in sex the way men do, and that turning sex into a job doesn't inherently mean pain for women. That its okay to damage our dreams, our romance, our joy in our bodies, and our sexual selves, in order for men to get orgasms. That its okay to in fact, damage our bodies (through plastic surgery, dangerous sex acts, high std and pregnancy risk etc.) for mens sexual pleasure. In order for this view to exist, you have to inherently dehumanize women. Period. End. You have to believe we are less fragile and less sensitive about sex and intimacy than men. That we are less of a human being than men are! In fact when the truth is we may be the opposite!! That is, you have to believe that we can just "take" all the objectification of us, and the penetration of us, like it were a job equal to "flipping burgers." You have to believe it is a fair exchange to give us money in exchange for our sexual needs not being met, our sexual identities being surrendered to those who can buy us, our pleasure in sex in our bodies being removed, and our sexual psychology being absolutely devalued and exploited. And, even if you, as a man will object and say "I want women to have pleasure in sex." This is a lie and I am tired of being lied to!! If you allow or are okay with one woman to be coerced to have sex with someone for money, you are harming all women. You are dehumanizing all women. You are saying its alright not to cherish the sexual identities and health of women and girls as long as some man somewhere can get off without any effort. For sex work to be considered a valuable contribution to society, we have to devalue the orgasms of women, while over-valuing the orgasms of men. We have to believe that it is a part of normal healthy relasionships and development (psychological development, sense of self, connection to others etc) for your sex to be something that is a purchased object for another person to use for their own pleasure while you are not enjoying yourself!! That is normal for your sex to have been twisted into a toil, a struggle, a job. Sex should always be inherently about pleasure! (And this is made worse by the fact that all sex workers all trend young, so so many girls who have brains that are not completely grown are being absolutely mentally screwed out of a healthy mind-body connection, and healthy sexual identity, by being sex workers.) Since women naturally suffer to give birth, our sexual pleasure should be the priority in our society! Men should strive to give us as much pleasure as possible to make up for this! All of this came up after I dealt with a couple of ugly boomer scrotes (of they were balding, wrinkly fat dudes) on IG arguing with me about sex work being okay as long as a woman "consents" to it. They used the common arguments that even if you acknowledge ecnomoic coersion it's not really rape because it's still "consent to a job just like any job, and therefore if you think this, then all jobs are abuse." Ofc this made my head explode as a former sex worker. This idea that "its still consent to a job just like any job" is part of patriarchy. Sex is special okay? There. I said it. Human beings are sexual beings and to make sex "a job" is fundamentally inhumane! It denies how important it is for our psychology, identity, sense of health, belonging and welfare for us to find pleasure in sex. Men are so self absorbed and stupid they legitimately think they would love sex work, while never actually doing or daring to do sex work themselves. They never are willing to give up their sexual pleasure like women are expected to, for them. They are just that stupid they think somehow that they would be able to enjoy having to fuck ugly people every day. Like they would be able to orgasm the same (even if they do), day after day. Even if you could orgasm some of the time, over time you would become fucked up mentally. It's just guaranteed. Patriarchy inherently think that women's sex is something that is naturally "a labor." They think it's normal for a woman to "work" for men even in the most intimate of ways. To give up everything about herself, even to the most personal level. That our bodies are never personal and private. That our bodies are something any man can make public property if he wants to. For our most intimate and precious parts of ourselves as human beings (the gift of reproduction) to be stripped into nothing but a thing to buy, is to be removed from all the best parts of relasionships and self-knowing, and especially from self-knowing. Because sex is a major part of self-knowing. Like masturbation. But men want to own that too. They want to own and occupy the self-knowing of women to the point we don't own it ourselves anymore. They want us to surrender it all to men, just so they can bust a nut. Guys like this think its the natural state for women's orgasms to be faked for their benefit. Guys like this think women just aren't sexual beings like they are....aka...women are not human like they are. Guys like this want to believe if they were a girl they'd dream of being a prostitute. They don't believe that girls are just like boys - that we don't dream of our futures like this. Ever. No girl or boy dreams of being a prostitute. So men who think sex work is "just a job like any job" think removing pleasure from sex is no more of a "crushed dream" than having to flip burgers when you wanted to be an astronaut. This is a lie. This was kind of long, and I may have been redundant so I might edit this later. But I hope this contributes to people's understanding about how sex work is always bad, its a cornerstone of patriarchy, and it is always rape. Personal sexual pleasure should ALWAYS be the priority in sex. Nobody willingly consents to have their sexual pleasure removed and turned into a struggle. Nobody mentally healthy consents for sex to become a dead experience for someone elses consumption. Men will never willingly chose to be sex workers en masse, they will always prefer to be the buyers. Sex work is about sexism and dehumanization of women. Period end.

5 comments

You're completely right. Part of what peaked me on pop-feminism is this ridiculous push for more and more degrading sex, while at the same time I would see article after article talking about how very very few women are actually having orgasms with their (male) partners. It just blew my mind. "Why aren't they speaking up?" I would wonder. "Why aren't they leaving these men?" Even women who aren't being prostituted are still slaves to this mentality of the man getting his no matter what and the woman is just a prop. That's where the whole "None of us is free until all of us is free" (Audre Lord?) comes in. No woman deserves this treatment, and even if women were getting rich off of it (which is of course so rare it's a laughable prospect) you're right that it never makes up for what is taken away. I have been with a man for about a decade and only once in all that time has he ever dissapointed me sexually, and I told him that he did! Of course women should orgasm first (several times!!!) before the man gets off because he is one and done. I wish more women who are with men would take that to heart.

And I think this post would be a great fit in o/WomensLiberation too, because it’s a great discussion starter and so well written, and you give voice to so many things women are thinking but that are taboo to talk about outside of feminist spaces, so we rarely even see it all put down in words!

Your viewpoint as a former sex worker provides insight that men may not want to hear, but that women MUST hear, IMO. I think if more women knew about radical feminism (and not libfems) and read this message, they would be all ears. I’m really hoping there will be a tipping point soon.

Thanks, I am not so sure about the writing here it definitely needs editing. But thank you! It's really hard to put down into words how fucked up it is.

[–] Apricot_Ibex 2 points Edited

👏 👏 👏

So many excellent points here! Thank you for this post. Countless times I have wondered how liberal feminism can, in alleged good conscience, prop up male demands to turn women into objects who have no thoughts, desires, or dreams of their own. Men project their own desires onto women and we are to be their blank canvas and their blowup doll, and libfems tell young girls that this is healthy sexuality.

If sex work and porn are so liberating to women’s sexuality, why is there still a massive orgasm gap in hetero couples after the rampant consumption by men of both? Women all know that men don’t learn how to get women off by going to prostitutes and watching porn, all of which exist only to get MEN off, so why do libfems spout the same lies as MRAs when it comes to these glaringly obvious issues? The orgasm gap is simply not an issue for men, and they hate being reminded of it. As long as they get access to sexual services (and they do see sex as women servicing them, for sure, not a mutually pleasurable experience) then they do not care. If they did care, the gap would disappear.

What if men were called sl.uts and wh.ores for saying they want to enjoy fulfilling sex (not servicing others, but truly personally pleasurable sex)? The very thought sounds ludicrous because of how unlikely it would be for the male orgasm to ever be shamed or dismissed as a top priority during sex.

As you point out, nowhere is this more apparent than in the entire concept of sExUaLLy eMpOwErInG prostitution and porn (and also in fetishes where women are “dominated” and cater to men). In porn, women’s orgasms are fake almost all of the time, but the audience doesn’t care. In fact, they demand the faking. Her pain and distress is either irrelevant or a turn-on.

Imagine if men were told that their orgasms are secondary to being physically and mentally tortured to get women off 24/7, that the male orgasm is a mystery, too much work, and a happy accident that happens once in a blue moon, that this is totally normal, and talking about not being satisfied makes women feel bad, so just fake it or tell your girlfriend orgasms aren’t important to you, that you just like “intimacy” (as you point out, mutually satisfying sex should be the ultimate intimacy, but sex pozzi faux feminism has centered the male orgasm just as patriarchy always has, and robbed women of their true empowerment to demand a fulfilling sex life for themselves that is not based only on male fantasy and orgasm).

Prostitution makes clear whose orgasm is important. The male orgasm is used as justification for endless suffering, whereas if we read the anonymous comments from punters/Johns online, they’ll often say that going to prostitutes is relaxing because they can make her do whatever they want and don’t have to “feel bad” or feel inadequate that they didn’t get her off. “Sometimes I don’t want to work at it” they will say. They want to leave all the sexual “chores” to the women, which to them is the natural order of things. What a twisted way to view sexuality. Men who think like this are forever ruined as decent partners to women.

MRAs and incels wouldn’t last very long as sex workers. They would be forced to have sex, as you point out, with people who disgust them, do things that don’t get them off at all, put their lives in danger, and turn what should be a pleasurable intimate act into a dissatisfying chore, all while being physically and verbally threatened and abused. Men would never. The very thought of them being sexually servile and forgoing orgasms to pleasure a bunch of fugly maladjusted people would make them laugh in derision.