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*Please keep in mind that some things that I talk about in this post may be specific to my culture

I’m a teenager but have recently had some of my male teachers talk to us students about women’s age and their reproductive ability. Probably just a coincidence, but it pissed me off.

Anyways, I just had a realization that men online and offline constantly insulting women in their 30s for their "diminishing" attractiveness and reproductive ability don’t actually want women in their 30s to notice those insults. They want to scare teen girls or women in their 20s who are still unsure and ignorant about matters of life. They keep using scare tactics to steer us towards marriage and childbirth at an early age. The societal pressure to make us marry a man before the age of 30, to make us give birth to a man’s child before the age of 30, is so immense.

At the same time, they push this image that it is primarily the women who are in a hurry to get married while men want to remain a “free bachelor”. I think in real life it is the exact opposite. Men don’t admit it, but I think they really REALLY want to get married and have children.

The way they treat women so overcritically is quite like haggling to bring the price down of something you want to buy. Collective male shaming of women's age pressures women into lowering their standards by making them feel like they are always running out of time and losing their “value” as a woman.

The way people depict women in their 30s is something that can easily make many younger women controlled by fear. The media also act as if a woman who is unmarried by their 30s will be societally outcast, stripped of her social status, and lose all her respectability in the eyes of other people. Does this actually happen in real life to women in their 30s? No. But the haunting image sure does work on women in their 20s. They are intentionally trying to lower women’s self-esteem into marrying them, dating them, giving birth to their children. Women who successfully survive this period of life without being tricked manage to do fine and thrive in life. Men know that actual older women don't give a fig about their pathetic opinions, and instead focus on converting young women.

I can’t believe my teachers are already starting to implicitly pressure their female students about marriage and childbirth. I'm not going to fall for the stupid trap. I have seen so many women whose lives have been ruined because of their husbands but not a single woman whose life has been ruined because they did not get married to a man.

*Please keep in mind that some things that I talk about in this post may be specific to my culture I’m a teenager but have recently had some of my male teachers talk to us students about women’s age and their reproductive ability. Probably just a coincidence, but it pissed me off. Anyways, I just had a realization that men online and offline constantly insulting women in their 30s for their "diminishing" attractiveness and reproductive ability don’t actually want women in their 30s to notice those insults. They want to scare teen girls or women in their 20s who are still unsure and ignorant about matters of life. They keep using scare tactics to steer us towards marriage and childbirth at an early age. The societal pressure to make us marry a man before the age of 30, to make us give birth to a man’s child before the age of 30, is so immense. At the same time, they push this image that it is primarily the women who are in a hurry to get married while men want to remain a “free bachelor”. I think in real life it is the exact opposite. Men don’t admit it, but I think they really REALLY want to get married and have children. The way they treat women so overcritically is quite like haggling to bring the price down of something you want to buy. Collective male shaming of women's age pressures women into lowering their standards by making them feel like they are always running out of time and losing their “value” as a woman. The way people depict women in their 30s is something that can easily make many younger women controlled by fear. The media also act as if a woman who is unmarried by their 30s will be societally outcast, stripped of her social status, and lose all her respectability in the eyes of other people. Does this actually happen in real life to women in their 30s? No. But the haunting image sure does work on women in their 20s. They are intentionally trying to lower women’s self-esteem into marrying them, dating them, giving birth to their children. Women who successfully survive this period of life without being tricked manage to do fine and thrive in life. Men know that actual older women don't give a fig about their pathetic opinions, and instead focus on converting young women. I can’t believe my teachers are already starting to implicitly pressure their female students about marriage and childbirth. I'm not going to fall for the stupid trap. I have seen so many women whose lives have been ruined because of their husbands but not a single woman whose life has been ruined because they did not get married to a man.

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In many Western countries women are having their first babies around the age of thirty and an increasing number are opting out of having babies at all

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/ddn-20200515-2 https://www.economist.com/britain/2021/10/14/in-britain-childlessness-seems-likely-to-return-to-1920s-levels

(Sorry I don’t have access to the full Economist article online)

So MRAs’ scare tactics aren’t working. This is why there seems to have been an increase in these fools whining about women ‘hitting the wall’ at 25. Women are holding the line no matter what these men are saying. And any teacher talking about reproductive age needs to mention the science about paternal age.

Sadly, that article is behind a paywall. But I am surprised that in the 1920 a lot of women were childfree.

Here’s the text of the article:

Anybody mulling a career as a midwife or nursery manager might want to reconsider. On October 14th the Office for National Statistics reported that in 2020 the fertility rate in England and Wales, which is expressed as the number of children per woman, fell to 1.58, the lowest since records began in 1938. Babies are particularly scarce in inner London. Just 5,442 were born in the borough of Newham last year, down from 6,426 in 2012. And almost all were conceived before covid-19 made the prospect of going into hospital unappealing. The tally for 2021 may well be lower.

Birth rates can fall for several reasons. Couples may decide to stop at two children rather than going for a third. Gaps between pregnancies can extend. If women merely delay having children, the fertility rate will fall and then rebound, as happened to some extent in the 1970s and again around the turn of the century. But this time it looks as if people are going without altogether.

A recent article by John Ermisch, an Oxford University sociologist, finds that the drop in the English and Welsh fertility rate has been caused largely by a decline in first births. Women without university degrees, who have historically been more likely to have children, are emulating the better-educated. If the current pattern holds, Mr Ermisch reckons, 21% of women will have no children—back to the level of the cohort born in 1920 (see chart).

Although the stereotype of a childless woman is a trouser-suited careerist running too late to the ivf clinic, the reality is different. One study of Britons born in 1970 found that the two most important reasons for remaining childless, among both men and women, were that they did not particularly want children or did not meet the right partner. That hints at a broad change in norms and expectations. A new paper on America by Melissa Schettini Kearney and two other economists comes to similar conclusions. They think fertility is declining not because of economic pressures, but because people’s assumptions about life and families have changed. In particular, children are thought to require much more effort and attention than was the case in the past.

Few old people are childless today. Those celebrating their 80th birthdays this year belong to a cohort born in 1941, among whom only 11% ended up child-free. Falling fertility and growing lifespans mean that the number of childless 80-year-olds will triple over the next two decades, according to the ons, and seems likely to rise thereafter. That will put more pressure on the care system, because old people without children are more likely to receive formal care.

Culture might change, too. British novels used to be stuffed with elderly bachelors, spinsters and maiden aunts, but they faded from view in the 20th century. “The position of an unmarried, unattached, ageing woman is of no interest whatsoever to the writer of modern fiction,” complained a character in “Quartet in Autumn”, a novel in 1977 by Barbara Pym, who was the standout exception to the rule. Bring back the literary spinster—or, failing that, look to Pym’s novels for a vision of the future.

It had to do with the fact that so many men were killed in WWI so there was no one for women to marry. Virginia Nicholson has written a book - Singled Out - on the subject and it’s an interesting read especially how these spinsters became pillars of their community contributing a great deal.

Even if women's chances of marrying in their 30s are reduced, it doesn't matter. Because the underlying message really is that marriage makes you "worthy" of love in the eyes of the man who wants to marry you. It's your "reward" for "being a good woman".

It's simply a marketing gimmick, because for the vast majority of women marriage is a not a benefit at all. Marriage (and also motherhood) ages you much faster than singlehood does. Men will (on average) drain the life out of a woman. If more women were aware of this fact, especially when young, far fewer would be willing to get married. So the conditioning starts earlier and earlier.

Marriage used to be a slave contract and now that we're "free" we're steered back into it in other ways. What young women should really prioritize is buying land and building autonomy for themselves and other women. I'd love to see a network of all female spaces throughout the world.

[–] winterghost 4 points Edited

the other day at a dinner with (female) friends, i said "i cannot wait to be 30" and they looked at me like i was insane. i think it's very sad how women are scared to age, when it's that or literally dying.

edit: also, the best years to have a baby with regards to safety and low-risk pregnancies are 25-35, so men cannot even keep their idiot takes scientifically accurate.

The message is definitely intended to hit all women. Men want you to feel over the hill at 38 so you're grateful that a 55 year old wants you. Or for your retirement community neighbors to pressure you to date an ailing 74 year old when you're an energetic 61.

Men live in a dream world where they can fuck around through their 20s, become sought-after bachelors in their 30s, finally select a gorgeous 24 year old fiancee at 38, and then have kids in their 40s. They confidently tell each other that men age better than women, that most young women are attracted to men 10-20 years older, and that there's no effect on their sex appeal or sperm quality as they age. All dead wrong. And if it was true, they wouldn't need to convince women of it. We'd see young women naturally chasing bald, paunchy men, instead of a toxic sex industry that depends on female suffering to supply older men with young women for cash.

I'm at an age where my friends who did marry older (all in the same artist/writer world social circle in our early 20s) are now leaving their husbands. It started when everyone was about 33-35 and it's been a steady parade of divorces ever since. Turns out, even if you convince a young woman that you're a sophisticated catch, she'll still get sick of your controlling ass as she gets older and smarter, and leave you to turn 60 by yourself. Somehow men never think about that possibility when they hunt for young wives.

Turns out, even if you convince a young woman that you're a sophisticated catch, she'll still get sick of your controlling ass as she gets older and smarter, and leave you to turn 60 by yourself.

This does give me some consolation. For me it just feels so against nature that all these healthy young women are steered into marrying old, unappealing men with abominable sperm qualities. I'm glad that they are leaving their old husbands.

Men live in a dream world where they can fuck around through their 20s, become sought-after bachelors in their 30s, finally select a gorgeous 24 year old fiancee at 38, and then have kids in their 40s

This is beyond gross to me. Like, hello, I would not like my children to come from 40 year old sperms. The audacity is quite amazing.

with abominable sperm qualities

We really need to start talking about this more as a society.

[–] Jade 21 points

don’t actually want women in their 30s to notice those insults

Mate, I just turned 40, and spoiler alert, they do. I agree with your point that men ALSO want to groom young women, but these insults are absolutely aimed at “women past 27” too.

Men want you to suddenly double down on trying to please them or they’ll leave you, and when they cheat anyway, it’s your fault for being old and “unattractive”. I’ve hesrd that from men IN THEIR 80s.

And men also want to undermine your self esteem because that would be the only way (according to their “genius” strategy) they could outperform women in a work environment, etc

Basically, they hate women of all ages, but really see no purpose in women they don’t feel like fucking because they’re delusional about the possibility of fucking 10-15 years younger. If you have the impression thet “they don’t want women in their 30s to hear it”, it’s simply because women in their 30’s alre already invisible to them.

Getting older as a woman means coming into your power. Men hate women 30+ plus because we become hardened, focused and wise to their ways. Much harder to get a woman in her 30s or 40s to commit than a young woman who believes the fairytale.

[–] Jade 10 points

Amen to all this. In my early 30s I had this epiphany seeing this 23 tear old woman who was eating up all the ludicrous lies this man was telling her to get in her pants (and definitely a green card - he was British), and how every time I tried to alert her she’d already “swear loyalty to him” and feel like she’s “the chosen one” and suggest *I* read You Are Badass by Jane Sincero or whatever her name is.

I remember that when I was 23, I was exactly the same. So many young women put all their value in the validation from men. Unfortunately, it’s a “grooming-by-society” thing. You grow out of it when you mature. But in your early 20’s, “being the prettiest”,”being the one the man/men choose(s)”, means so much. Because you were taught by Hollywood, Disney, the media, magazines, songs, books read to you as a kid, the eventual adult, etc that that’s how it works.

^ I've gained status in the ways I care about as I've aged. As I passed through my younger years, I had no real complaints about those decades (per se), but now that I'm firmly into middle age, I'm happier than ever. I can say with 100% certainty that the only way I'd relive those years is if I could invent a magic time machine that would allow me to take what I know now and relive my early life with my current understanding firmly in mind.

I want to give a little cheer for you, incognita00, for knowing the score so early in life. It's a superpower! Cherish it :-)

Collective male shaming of women's age pressures women into lowering their standards by making them feel like they are always running out of time and losing their “value” as a woman.

Now this is so true. Our "biological clock" is brought up every damn time we mention future goals.

And if you ask a man in his 20s "so, do you want to get married and start a family?" most men will say "I'm only in my 20s! I'm not getting married until at least 35!" Because men just assume women in their 20s want them, at any age. Men over 50 think a suitable dating range is "18-30" -- how common is this outside of celebrity couples?

As of late the rate of 50+ men dating females who are the same age as their daughters (granddaughters, too) has risen thanks to society practically endorsing it. Tik Tok certainly has made it worse than regularly seeing those celebrity couples on TV.

This is a good observation, but I would say that them messaging is directed to all women: if you're young enough, you should do the right thing; if you're too old and missed your chance, you should feel bad and also devalue yourself accordingly by, in part, serving others who do have children.

I think women in their 30s still get this type of pressure. The more education you have, the later you tend to have children so I am starting to see my acquaintances without children talk about infertility to excuse themselves.

Coincidentally, I have chosen not to have children but have a LTR and oddly my family and others have defaulted to the idea that I must have an "old shriveled uterus" and cannot rather than would not have children. It is very odd and a minor phenomenon, I'd say. They stopped mentioning babies to me when they "figured" this out and now they've slotted me in the aunt support role. I love being an aunt but when big life events happen in my life I get no support myself.

I'm nowhere near menopause so sometimes I find this a bit insulting. I COULD have (my sister have children) but didn't choose your choices because I thought they'd be bad ones for me--how hard is that to understand?

That is quite disheartening and infuriating. I thought things would get slightly better when I am well into my thirties and those men realize that I can't be convinced.

The more education you have, the later you tend to have children

Exactly why I think men try to push us into having children at an early age: they don't want us becoming more successful than them, academically or financially.

Those people you mention sound like people who can't live with the idea that a woman may not want to become a mother (as if each and individual one of us still considers reproduction our primary goal in life like we are still animals. I say we dropped reproduction from our ultimate priority when we chose to walk upright unlike our ape relatives).

don't want us becoming more successful than them, academically or financially

This is a huge red flag that young women should really pay attention to. I have known women with husbands and boyfriends who are not supportive of their careers, and it about control. You do NOT want to be with a man who feels he is entitled to ANY control over you.

Not my Nigel warning: my husband is not perfect, he is certainly not the best feminist ally in the world, but one of his best qualities is that he has always supported me in my career. Sometimes I regret having our first child at 30 and not sooner, and he always reminds me how important it was to establish my career. He sacrificed a lot to help me get there. THAT is what you want in a spouse!

It is frustrating, but it is also true that the older you get the more you've carved out a niche and lifestyle that suits you and you can do so in a way that lets you avoid or ignore these people for the most part. I do love my family but most of them are many states away--our lifestyles just wouldn't mesh on a daily basis. We want different things from life.

It's simple divide and conquer tactics. Older women have always been the ones protecting and teaching younger women. Divide them and you continue to have access to naive younger women and girls who have been separated from good female role models. They see them as the enemy now and will do everything opposite to them, they think it's men who "really care " about them which is the furthest thing from the truth.

Then you have continuous brainwashing, and pro male propaganda in the world. You have the gaslighting and the complete take over of the internet by male voices There's literally nowhere to turn that doesn't tell you women suck and they're the problem. It's a vicious cycle and the state of women's rights world-wide becomes bother the consequence of such an environment as well as a mother contributor of it.

You have the gaslighting and the complete take over of the internet by male voices

Every single day, regardless of the website or forum (other than Ovarit) I see "feminism ruined everything; feminists ruined society; the economy and social order has all been destroyed by feminism" -- I feel like one definition of narcissist should just be "the male sex."

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