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I'm sure many of us have been called variations of "man haters" before, but last night really drove home for me what it means. I was discussing ways men oppress women during family dinner, and my father said the man-hating was making him feel uncomfortable.

When men hate women, they kill them. When women hate men, they... talk about men killing them?

That's hatred?

Seems to me like

Misogyny = prejudice against women

Misandry = calling out men for being prejudiced against women

We can't win.

I'm sure many of us have been called variations of "man haters" before, but last night really drove home for me what it means. I was discussing ways men oppress women during family dinner, and my father said the man-hating was making him feel uncomfortable. When men hate women, they kill them. When women hate men, they... talk about men killing them? That's hatred? Seems to me like Misogyny = prejudice against women Misandry = calling out men for being prejudiced against women We can't win.

70 comments

[–] no- 93 points

I think I genuinely, deeply hate men. But I still would never, even if I could, do to a man what men do to women, which is rape and kill them.

I think I hate them too. I'm glad to have a safe place to be open about it. They make my life, and all women's lives, a living hell. They make me live in fear yet it's a joke to them. They hate us so much when we've done nothing to them. I try not to hate them but then I see another rape case, another misogynist comment, another man harasses me

I always thought of men as incompetent, lazy and self-centered but redeemable. I never hated men in general untill 2019 when I saw the stark difference between men and women reacting to Israa Gharib murder, a woman killed by her own brothers.

I've never thought I'm walking among and talking to a majority of men who want the right to kill women.

I don't even think I hate them in the full meaning of the word, I'm justifiably reacting to their actions and entitlement.

[–] RuneOwl 8 points Edited

I don't think it's even fair to call what you're feeling hate or equate it with bigotry. It's just a logical reaction to male behavior and is not only morally justifiable, it's the only healthy, sane reaction to being surrounded by an entire class of abusers. We can argue all day about whether men become cruel and violent towards women because of nature, nurture, or both, but the fact remains that they are. To downplay this danger just because a few men are not as bad as most of them is pure gaslighting.

Reading the work of Jessica Taylor has really opened my eyes. She argues that patriarchal ideas in mental healthcare pathologize women's trauma, as if being the victim of male violence and having a natural reaction to it is the actual problem.

When you analyze what critics of feminism are actually saying (especially when they accuse us of man-hating) it usually boils down to something similar–the problem isn't that men are being bad, we don't have to fix them. The problem is that you stupid women won't shut up and learn to deal with it.

[–] furyosa no, thank you 1 points

Reading the work of Jessica Taylor has really opened my eyes. She argues that patriarchal ideas in mental healthcare pathologize women's trauma, as if being the victim of male violence and having a natural reaction to it is the actual problem.

Yes, this is her strongest contribution to feminism! I want to see this hammered into our collective consciousness: Women are not "crazy" for reacting to abuse. That is DARVO tactics on a large scale.

And don't they know it? Lorena Bobbit was a one off.

And don't they know it? Lorena Bobbit was a one off.

The world would be a better place if more men lived in fear of getting the Bobbit treatment

I had an amazing dream once that I was part of this culture in which once a year men had to come forward in a ritual and lay their penis on a ceremonial stone and swear that over the past year it had been used only to bring pleasure to others and never pain. If anyone in the crowd assembled to watch the ceremony knew differently, they could come forward and speak their story, and if it was found to be true, would result in the penis being chopped off.

I feel like it really wouldn't take more than one or two times of that happening for every man to suddenly understand women's pleasure very well.

When I watched Dexter, the TV series, my impression was that the women of the world need the female version of him!

I always appreciate when a sister brings admirable women to our attention.

Oh, I stand corrected. The garbage disposal story was particularly gruesome. I think my point was, women don't pull a fraction of the violence men do.

Really? If there were no consequences you wouldn’t do eye for an eye type justice to some blokes who have done this to women?

I mean men just do it because it turns them on. I would never be able to do it for that reason. But for revenge?

The older I grow, the more I find myself disliking or even hating men. That's not to say I don't have men in my life I like or respect, but I think, my attitude towards men and women in general can be summed up as,

Men are a threat until proven otherwise, women aren't a threat until proven otherwise.

Pretty sure that's a common view held by the women here.

Men feel uncomfortable when they are told the reality of what they do and don't want to hear it, they are just happy to reap the benefits. Unfortunately we are related to these people. Your father was telling you to shut up.

[+] [Deleted] 53 points

Twelfth rule of misogyny: Women’s ability to recognize male behavior patterns is misandry.

For a supposedly "rational" sex, men sure get easily upset when having to face the facts they don't like.

they're not much more rational than anyone else. most of them are emotionally dysregulated crybabies lol.

it's not entirely their fault, since men are just taught to bottle up their own emotions as children while women typically are allowed to emotionally develop, but that's not because of systemic misandry, there is no such thing. it's because of misogyny. emotions = feminine = bad = unmasculine.

but in the same vein they demand girls with daddy issues to get therapy, they should take responsibility for their own shit and get therapy themselves too. it's not a woman's job to cater to your damn anger issues.

[–] drdeeisback 18 points Edited

'men are just taught to bottle up their own emotions as children while women typically are allowed to emotionally develop'

I think it's the opposite. Men are free to show their emotions, as attendance at any sporting event will demonstrate. Women are taught to bottle up our emotions. 'No, of course not, it's fine, I'm not upset/angry/disappointed.' The only emotions we are permitted to demonstrate without criticism or punishment are the ones men want to see--devotion, love, gratitude, cutesy happiness--and we're not only allowed but required to demonstrate them whether we actually feel them or not.

I wonder whether we want to believe that 'men aren't allowed to show their emotions' because that way we can fool ourselves into believing men actually really do love and care for us, they've just been taught not to show it. Similar argument to what Radway describes in Reading the Romance--'he behaves toward me with cruelty or indifference, but he really loves me with an undying passion.'

https://uncpress.org/book/9780807843499/reading-the-romance/

When a man expresses emotion, of whatever type, he expects, and invariably gets, action. An angry man is soothed and coddled, a man expressing love MUST have the object of his desire otherwise he'll shrivel up and die/become a mass murderer or something, and it will be the woman's fault if she doesn't act on his emotion. Meanwhile, women's emotions have at best no effect on the world--we're lucky if others are only indifferent if we dare to express an emotion.

I think it's largely cultural: affected by culture. In some cultures, women are more encouraged to be emotionally expressive, to show the full range of emotions, including joy, laughter, anger, sadness, tears, tears of joy, surprise, irritability, smug satisfaction, etc...

Meanwhile, the men in these cultures are expected to never shed a tear, to never cry (even when faced with traumatic events such as real tragedy and death of a loved one or a friend). The men in those cultures are conditioned to be out of touch with their feelings. If they do express emotion, the only socially acceptable behaviors are expressed anger (can include violence) and joy (generic happy feelings, no tears...). This is also bad for the women of those cultures, because.... Those men tend to express anger when they feel sad (because expressions of sadness are discouraged, so that sadness transforms into irrational rage instead). This male sadness expressed as anger can also turn violent... then the men lash out at everyone around them (and women are less capable of defending themselves against a physical attack).

Some cultures don't teach healthy coping mechanisms to their men. It would be nice if men participated in sports (that gives them emotional release, and discharges them, and makes them less dangerous). But a lot of men aren't into sports. Or they only watch sports, but don't actually play any sport... That allows them to "bond" with other men, but does not offer the same release as actual physical activity (partaking in a sport) does. All that watching a sport does, is make men more emotional. But it does not give an outlet to all that pent up frustration. This is why fights break out on football stadiums. Frustrated men with no healthy coping mechanisms (men who don't play sports, but only watch other men play) taking their anger out on other people by getting into random violent fist fights...

They’re much less rational than women on average. It’s not even close. I’ve given up trying to have even basic discussions with most of them.

I hate men, I don't think they're redeemable, and although I don't want to rape nor torture them I'd get rid of many of them. I don't believe in a future in which men decide collectively to step up and improve anymore, I got to the conclusion that men lack that part of the brain that feels empathy. Men are born to destroy, it's in their nature. What I want to believe in, is a future in which women understand that men are a lost cause, so they collectively take power in their hands and finally turn the tide, governing the world for the first time in history and trying for a better future. Maybe only then men can be reformed, but it would take lots of manipulation on both young individuals and men generally as a class. The first step is to have less of them around.

This I agree with...

People talk about teaching their sons to be better but that's assuming women haven't tried hard enough. FDS quote I like is "If he wanted to, he would."

[–] Lilith 4 points Edited

This is a great point. Women can talk about raising good sons, because they do believe that their son is capable of good (and he is!) But women have been trying this tactic for ages without much success. There are too many influences in our culture that reinforce patriarchy. She can't win against that.

Mothers teach their sons to be better, but after a certain age that son is only listening to his father and other male figures. It's his natural imperative to learn how to become a man from other men. In toxic patriarchal culture, that means they will always learn how to oppress women and also why (for personal gain, for status, etc). And he will be penalized by other men for pushing back against any of this, if he does manage to maintain any of the lessons from mom and any other female influences.

Misandry = your statistics and experiences contradict how I want to think about how men treat women.

I've come to realize the strategy of the women I know who played nice with men and then quietly whispered warnings to other women about which men among them needed to be avoided. Men that the rest of the men would never hold accountable or take the shit they do to women seriously, only punish women for making them uncomfortable with the finger-pointing.

I do not hate men, but I have known from a very early age that men hate me simply for being female. Not because I have suffered any serious abuse at the hands of men - I am luckier than so many women. But because of the Talk that daughters are forced to hear from their mothers starting at the youngest age and repeated routinely lest we forget. Do not do this, do not go there, a thousand and one limitations on our freedom of movement and association that no man would tolerate for a single moment. Limitations that are so taken for granted that it is taboo to ask why.

Or should I say, it is taboo to say why.

Ask most people about this, men and women alike, and the typical response will be, “There are some crazy people out there.”

I hate patriarchy, the system that rewards shit men and encourages a larger group of men to pretend it doesn't exist. I love my father, my husband, my nephew, my cousins, my male friends, and I don't hate random strangers, but I AM suspect of all men because the facts of male violence means I have a rational fear of men.

Andrea Dworkin has a lot of good quotes that touch on this. Feminism doesn't exist because women hate men, it exists because men hate us.

And she would know, she was made an example of by hate-filled misogynist men who wanted women to know exactly what would happen to them if they embraced true feminism.

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