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Would someone please explain to me why in the world so many women think these are their only two choices?

I see a lot of women raised in conservative religious cultures who throw themselves into libfem land and at the same time those who bought into libfemmery and regret their "empowered choices" regress to a tradwife lifestyle. Why?

Why such extreme thinking? There are many different ways to live as a woman why do so many think their only two choices are those that give them male attention and approval.

Is imagining a middle ground really so difficult? Why not try focusing on career or education, having some type of mission or purpose in life that doesn't revolve around male approval or sex?

I've honestly never seen it to this degree until recently. I can tell you women of my generation (GenX) as a rule didn't think this way.

Would someone please explain to me why in the world so many women think these are their only two choices? I see a lot of women raised in conservative religious cultures who throw themselves into libfem land and at the same time those who bought into libfemmery and regret their "empowered choices" regress to a tradwife lifestyle. Why? Why such extreme thinking? There are many different ways to live as a woman why do so many think their only two choices are those that give them male attention and approval. Is imagining a middle ground really so difficult? Why not try focusing on career or education, having some type of mission or purpose in life that doesn't revolve around male approval or sex? I've honestly never seen it to this degree until recently. I can tell you women of my generation (GenX) as a rule didn't think this way.

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Being a 'moderate' nowadays seems especially demonized. 'You're either with us or against us.' Social media has only intensified black and white thinking. And since these two sides are what is presented to women, the middle ground or unique positions don't get exposure, which drives them to pick a side, which dwindles the middle ground evermore.

Also, being a human is no longer an experience but an identity. Which is not to deny the importance of identity to experience, it's a complex issue I know. But now you don't just like reading, you're a book girl. You don't just like plants, you're a plant lady. Find an aesthetic and mold yourself to fit it. Being a unique human is not so easily fit into a box.

the only one of these identity labels I will accept is being a cat lady, and only because it seems to piss off men who can't stand women choosing to be single lol

I can only speak from a US perspective, but the discourse on feminism is dominated by a right-left political spectrum dominated by men. Neither side truly represents women's best interests. The cliché is that the right wants women to be personal property and the left wants women to be public property (in reality, I think most men want varying degrees of both). Yas kween girlboss sex pozzer feminism leaves mothers behind. Tradwifery demonizes women's intelligence and ambition. Neither side respects women as whole human beings. Both sides seem to consider women only in relation to men. Conservatives primarily value women for their roles as wives and mothers; liberals want women to have sex "like men", and also be nannies and grunt workers for leftist causes.

in reality, I think most men want varying degrees of both

Well, what men actually want is to own some women as their private property, and get access to all other women as public property.

Conservative men agree to respect each other's private property (i.e. women), leftist men agree to consider women public property. This is necessary for men to be able to live together peacefully while having "equality" - without democracy, what happens is that the most powerful men have a hundred wives as their private property, and their virginal daughters are sold to the highest bidder and any man who has sex without buying them beforehand gets executed, while the least powerful men have zero women as their private property, and no access to communally owned women, either. (Though most societies have prostitutes to pacify the less powerful men.)

Even so, they still try to trick each other to get advantages over other men. Right wing men still rape other men's daughters and have affairs with married women, left wing men still try to get a woman to be their exclusive girlfriend, all while declaring they're too cool for marriage.

Well, what men actually want is to own some women as their private property, and get access to all other women as public property.

Basically. Across time and cultures the wealthiest, powerful men were able to keep wives for perpetuating their blood line, educated courtesans for sex and companionship, and low-level prostitutes purely for sex. One interesting characteristic of incel rhetoric is that they see this and respond by advocating for a kind of sexual Marxism where women are made available for "disadvantaged" men to use. This, even though the mainstream media generally portrays red-pillers and incels as right wing.

Right wing men still rape other men's daughters and have affairs with married women, left wing men still try to get a woman to be their exclusive girlfriend, all while declaring they're too cool for marriage.

Absolutely. In the US, at least, if right wing men get busted for adultery, they can find God and announce they've been forgiven. Republican politicians like Newt Gingrich do it all the time, and it works. Left wing men like Anthony Wiener go the route of claiming sex addiction, going to therapy, and sitting for a fawning magazine profile. In both cases, you can count the seconds until they're caught putting their dick somewhere it should be.

[–] proudcatlady 8 points Edited

It’s a religious personality. They don’t realize the irrational religiosity of it is the actual root issue so they just preserve that part and change religions. If they would engage their brains they’d realize the issue and move away from blind repetition of nonsense.

Apparently part of being human is that "imagining a middle ground" is impossible. I shake my head at this all the time. It seems like on every issue, there is stiff opposition to a middle ground. It's insane.

I was raised in a “high-demand religion” and when I left at 18ish I basically stumbled into sex-positive feminism. It damaged me as much as the conservative misogyny of the religion I was raised in. I never thought of it in the terms of being “sex-positive” or feminist. I probably would’ve laughed if someone called me a feminist during that time. I had no political consciousness but the culture was saturated with raunch and sex and porn and I was primed for it due to the religious upbringing. I really measured my worth by my ability to attract men and I was trying to deal with the sexual repression and shame and all the other baggage. But I definitely see a link between the two. Extreme thinking on both ends.

I really commiserate so much. Went from pretty repressed to having too much sex too freely also. It's a painful thing. I am sorry.

[–] happy-harpy 2 points Edited

I suppose it’s nice to know I’m not alone but I’m sorry you’ve suffered through this as well. It really fucks with your head. I always felt uncomfortable about the sex and relationships I was having with men during my “sex-positive” years and I couldn’t explain why. But then I found Andrea Dworkin and it all made sense.

[–] carpetplaydohx2 13 points Edited

I'm honestly not sure what the difference between the two really is. Tradwives prioritize one guy. Libfems prioritize all the guys. Is the difference really just in quantity? And at what point are these women prioritizing themselves and their own needs?

I think most women just don't even know that radical feminism is a thing. They aren't aware that the third option even exists.

I can tell you women of my generation (GenX) as a rule didn't think this way.

We definitely didn't!

I grew up in a conservative religious household, I am still religious because I have found it has helped me tremendously, but I realize I'm quite the "unconventional woman" in that I've basically set myself up to make more than a man by working in stem, I've got a weird sense of dress that doesn't always make me look "pretty", I feel like I dress like the stereotypical "queer commie" or whatever even though I'm relatively moderate politically... i definitely don't fit in in a conservative space, but in an ultraliberal space I feel I'm seen as a low-grade bigot just for existing with my beliefs about porn, if I speak about it openly. Or some left-leaning people discount what I have to say once they find out about my religious beliefs sometimes, which I understand but I often sense a little sexism on top of it like it's "that hysterical female believing in God again". Coming to this site made me see that it's nice to see other women who don't want to choose one of these 2 slingshotty outcomes, there's women who KNOW that porn positivity is suspicious and don't let culture gaslight them into changing their thinking. There's women who are, as you said,

focusing on career or education, having some type of mission or purpose in life that doesn't revolve around male approval or sex

And so I finally feel normal. I mean don't get me wrong, I'm heterosexual, I get lonely, I think about men, I want to fall in love, I want to be happily married someday. But that is so far from my only goal. I have so much more I can do. And celibacy is treating me just fine. Sex is fairly low on my priorities list.

I also think there's a difference between being a SAHM, homesteading, freelancing vs being a tradwife. If you get called a tradwife just because you are a homemaker, then that is a mess.

I delight in knowing I can be a logical woman who doesn't place a person's worth in a cult of purity, but also doesn't place a person's worth in how they put out sexually. It's a new enforcement of madonna/whore that some women are pushing on each other through politics and social media.

It's no coincidence that either choice upholds the status quo (male supremacy). This is arguably the function of ideology in general*. Note how both attempt to explain away the problems inherent to male-dominated society.

*) The conception of ideology as an individual lifestyle choice in itself serves to atomize.

I can tell you women of my generation (GenX) as a rule didn't think this way.

Amen sister

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